I get really lost in these 'I'm a feminist, but I have defined for myself what feminism is' kind of debates you people throw up. A couple of things are clear.

Feminists on OLO all have a different definition of feminism.

Feminists who have actually been published, have quite often had lots of derogatory things to say about men.

Men who reject feminism based on this or on particular disagreements with feminist lobby groups, are thought of by these OLO feminists as anti-women at best, or really just misogynists.

OLO feminists see any attack on feminism as an attack on women, or on the principle of gender equality, or on their values which they somehow feel they are being forced to justify.

But they somehow cant understand men seeing feminism as an attack on men, when all the words like feminism, patriachy, misogyny, are so loaded with anger, resentment and hatred of men from gender inequity of the past.

It gets to me that men brought up with ideals of true gender equity, in a society that goes pretty close to achieving it, get cast off as some kind of woman hater because they don't agree with the unquestioned persuit of 'feminism'; the exclusive, open ended furthering of women. It's somehow thought they have a chip no their shoulder, not the women who are brought up with equality, yet still bang on about past injustices from before they were born.

The men who critisize feminism, shouldn't have to justify/qualify their position by prefacing that they believe in equality, don't hate women and don't want to wind the clock back 50 years.

Usual Suspect. That seemed like a very honest expression of what you felt, so thanks for that.

There are many different definitions of feminism. Like Fractelle, I enjoy that, it means its culture is dynamic. I disagree with Melinda Tankard Reist on pretty much everything, but she's not the devil incarnate and if she thinks she's breaking down gender barriers then fine. I will argue with her. Similarly, if you think feminism has had its day, I disagree, but I do get what you're saying — you're clearly smart enough to have a frank discussion about it.

As I said before, what I dislike about this forum is when posters misrepresent others' positions, then just pay out of them. That's dumb.

I haven't seen all any instances of the men of this forum being called "misogynist". I actually did a search of old threads, because, in my nosy fashion, I wanted to know which posters were using the term and what prompted it. I can't find any — BUT I actually found the word "misandrist" a couple of times. (Including in this thread.) Having said that, I didn't trawl through every post, and you say you've got it so you've got it. So, out of interest, which OLO feminists have called you misogynist?

Good question Veronika.

U-Sus

Maybe the lyrics to an old song will help you:

"Some girls will, some girls won't
Some girls need a lot of lovin' and some
girls don't
Well, I know I've got the fever but I don't
know why
Some say they will and some girls lie
So here I am in front of you
Not really knowing what to do
My heart is feeling something new
Nervously I turn away from you
I see the looks you're sending me
Is this the way it's meant to be?
It's something we should talk about
Just give me time to work it out
Some girls will, some girls won't
Some girls need a lot of lovin' and some
girls don't
Well, I know I've got the fever but I don't
know why
Some say they will and some girls lie
I find your company to be
Something completely new to me
Now that I know you socially
Obviously I'll fall heavily
I've seen those looks you're sending me
This is the way it's meant to be
There's nothing left to talk about
Oh, how I wish you'd work it out
Some girls will, some girls won't
Some girls need a lot of lovin' and some
girls don't
Well, I know I've got the fever but I don't
know why
Some say they will and some girls lie."

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=RCykn0_Fh6A

Enjoy

Veronika>"haven't seen all any instances of the men of this forum being called "misogynist"..I can't find any."

Not all of these are directed at specific posters, but there it's a core part of feminism to use the term.
-=-=-=-=-
"I'm not abusing you, HRS. I'm saying that I've proven you're a misogynist, and I'm urging sensible people to shun you for that reason."-TurnRightThenLeft, Wednesday, 19 March 2008 5:35:31 PM

"But once again, we shouldn't let mere facts get in the way of a good misogynist rant :)"-mahatma duck, Wednesday, 12 October 2005 11:28:02 PM

"Song lyrics have always been filled with sexual innuendo and pushed society's boundaries but this in-your-face mainstream misogyny is relatively new."-Dannielle Miller - posted Tuesday, 8 April 2008

"If someone even questions why 1 in 4 pregnancies results in a visit to an abortion clinic, then that person must belong to the religious right, they are misogynist........."-HRS, Sunday, 27 July 2008 9:59:08 AM

"feminists *do* protest loudly against female genital mutilation. western feminists work together with feminists within the relevant culture to bring an end to this misogynist practice"-jocelynne, Friday, 22 June 2007 4:20:24 PM

"Whether it is caused by................, boys are taught to look on themselves as flawed, anti-social and misogynist."-Kevin Donnelly Monday, 8 September 2003

"Also why haven't you called C.J Morgan a misogynist, after saying several negative things about wives."-HRS, Monday, 30 June 2008 10:52:38 AM

"pelican: "The only thing that I don't like about OLO is it is very anti-female at times"-pelican, Saturday, 2 August 2008 6:11:29 PM

"John E. Carey's typically misogynist attack on Plame says much about the damage done to his (Carey's) US Republican causes."-plantagenet, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 11:16:18 AM

"It’s a very complex issue that misogynists like HRS and Stickman deliberately trivialise, and treat the issue as if the women make these choices out of free will and then spin it into a men’s issue."-Celivia, Tuesday, 17 June 2008 1:49:14 PM

"HRS was a fine case in point, when he was simultaneously stating that a)...... and d) this isn't misogyny."-TurnRightThenLeft, Friday, 1 August 2008 12:12:59 AM
-=-=-=-=

Steel, this list made me laugh. HRS was the first person I encountered on this forum, and to see him used as an example of a feminist using the word misogynist is hilarious. To find out why, read a couple of his posts. You've quoted him twice — three times if you count TurnRightTurnLeft quoting him, but you'd better believe he would have been claiming feminists were calling HIM misogynist rather than using it as an adjective to describe men. Kevin Donolley is also talking about boys being called misogynist. Pelican made a distinction between anti-female and misogynist in this thread.

There are four genuine examples, although I note one is three years old. I really disagree that female genital mutilation is misogynistic, because it is practiced by women. Like most feminists, I condemn both female and male circumcision, but I think both are culturally-based, not evidence of a hatred toward the gender.

Anyway, I just raised this because a couple of posters seem to imply that it's common for feminists to call men misogynist. I'd certainly say that if you can only find four real examples since 2005 it's certainly not rampant on this forum. As I said earlier, I found two examples of men calling women "misandrist" in threads that are currently ongoing. (Including this one, when Col Rouge calls SJF "a misandristic troll".) Not that I'm suggesting it's a competition. Or if it is, both sides are losers as far as I'm concerned — cliche thought it is, I think it's true that name-calling usually tells you more about the name caller than person who has been called a name, and it doesn't interest me as a tactic. I just wanted to be clear about who, if anyone, was bandying "misogynist" around and why.

What's this Veronika - do you mean that HRS isn't really a feminist?

Take that back immediately, or s/he'll set Timkins on to you :O