Sams writes after blowing his/her trumpet about what a good citizen he/she is

'Contraception - there's one. I think I did mention that as did many researchers that I saw. Less interference in decent sex education by ignorant right-wing superstitious extremists - there's another.' Well I suppose you did say you aren't an academic. With statements like this it is obvious.

After 40 years of promoting promiscuity and telling kids just to wear condoms the abortion rate has grown dramatically. Many with sam's thinking even hand out condoms free really believing they are doing these kids a service.. It is obvious that it is the amoral Marxist philosophies that sam's seems to be so keen on that has resulted in the dramatic increase in these murders

HRS, i couldn't agree more, adoption is a great way to lower abortion rates. Hopefully that avenue is seriously considered by the mother-to-be. There are many genuine people who would do just about anything to adopt a child, maybe the anything requires some thought. While callous to put a value on that potential baby, it is better than the alternative.

My point though is that the woman would be forced to go through a pregnancy she does not want. By all means give incentive to continue that pregnancy, just don't force people to do so against their will. I find women to be higly nurturing in general and if they see abortion as the best outcome for themselves then they must really really not want the pregnancy. It's not always just about not wanting the child, it's not wanting the pregnancy too.

Where do right-to-life proponents draw the line on birth defects?

ScienceLaw: "everyone ... agrees "some things are simply so wrong they cannot be allowed no matter how many people want to do them"?'

ScienceLaw, you are appealing to some universal, absolute truth which we could all see if we looked hard enough. You realise this - yes?

You also realise that since time immemorial no one has agreed on what that truth would be. So whose would we use - some intellectual elite perhaps? We have a lot of deeply religious people who post here on OLO who believe they known an absolute truth. Is it their truth you wish to adopt, or do you have another version of the truth in mind? The elite who ran Germany in the 1940's who ran their world in much the same way you are proposing now. You didn't like their truth either, I gather. You are a picky bloke, ScienceLaw.

And your protests notwithstanding, universal truth is the very opposite of logic. Our religious friends have this right - it is an act of faith, not of logic. Accept this, ScienceLaw, for they know - they tell me they speak the truth.

Anne: "This total obsession with abortion and controlling other people's fertility is purely an invention of the religious right in modern times"
ScienceLaw: "Its loaded language, illustration of an evidently entrenched position .."

You may be right ScienceLaw, it may be loaded language and all the other things you say. It is also the truth. Not some "universal truth" you must have faith in though - it is something much better. It is verifiability true. Verifiable truths are the basis of logic. You know how it works - you establish the facts of the case, you logically apply the rules, and you end up with a conclusion.

And because I know you know all this - like I said before: Get Real.

There seems to be an unquestioned assumption held by some commentators that there are too many abortions. I disagree. Australia, like the rest of the world, is overpopulated already in terms of carrying capacity.

Surely it would be desirable to terminate more human embryos and foetuses before they are born and become people?

I'm more concerned by acts of animal cruelty. These are acts against conscious beings. In my opinion, legal abortion is the destruction of preconscious and dependent human life, not of human beings.

A definition of murder:

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/murder

"The unlawful killing of another human being without justification or excuse."

What defines a human being, and how one compares consciousness between different species, would seem to be the points of contention.

Sure CJ...and what if your mum had aborted you?
Youre alive today by Gods Grace which says "thou shalt not kill".