While every effort must be made to encourage China to observe the conventions concerning Human Rights, cease their paranoia about dissent, open up the media and allow more participation of the people, the Western version of democracy being merely a multiparty system does not guarantee any of the former mentioned ideals being attained. A one-party government if lead by benevolent leaders who encourage participation by all and listen to the concerns of their people can be preferable. Look at the incredible waste of money in the effort to be allowed to be Leader of each party so that one can fight for the ultimate Leadership of the country that is occuring in USA. The West will never succeed in bullying other nations to change their ways to become 'Democracies' when they can see what that entails.

Lydia,

If you think the Chinese government listens to the Chinese people you are kidding yourself! I lived there for two years and it functions just like any other oligarchy where the top guys do what they want, steal from the peasants and are generally unnaccountable.

However, I cannot agree with Chin that allowing the Chinese to misgovern themselves is appeasement. The concept of appeasement is only relevent where the rival power is expansionist and represents an existential threat to us. The mainland Chinese show no signs of generalised expansionism or military belligerance towards the West.

Furthermore, they do not have an exportable theory of government - even the Chinese kleptocrats don't suggest that the West or any non-Chinese should adopt the current mainland Chinese style of government so I don't see them as a serious threat to us.

Lydia,

This is the kind of black armband or grievance mongering attitude of the soft left that we see so often today.

You say >>” A one-party government if lead by benevolent leaders ... can be preferable”

Sorry, where exactly has this benevolent dictatorship taken place?

There are no guarantees in life. But our western style of democracy allows the majority to bring down the government if they are not happy with its performance. Many soft lefties get confused on this point, believing that because they are unhappy with gov’t, yet are unable to dismiss it, it is not a true democracy. What you are missing is that it doesn’t guarantee crackpots and minorities a veto, only the majority of registered voters.

You say>> “Look at the incredible waste of money in the effort to be allowed to be Leader of each party so that one can fight for the ultimate Leadership of the country that is occuring in USA.”

How is this even relevant to the subject under discussion? If anything, the American system is more democratic than ours.

You say>>” The West will never succeed in bullying other nations to change their ways to become 'Democracies' when they can see what that entails”

Your quaint and frankly naïve explanation of what the West is trying to do is not surprising. The left, who value symbols and ideas over peoples lives and freedoms, allowed the genocides in Rwanda and Darfur to be carried out because they were committed to talking about the problem, not actually dealing with it. The soft lefties love the talking shops, like the toothless and fatally flawed UN, because it gives them the illusion that they are doing something and salves their conscience about standing by while people die.

On virtually any index of freedom or welfare you care to name, the West outdoes China many times over. China is not free and dissidents like Lydia would face jail, reeducation camps or execution if they criticized the state as they are free to do here

I don't think the West will ever "push" China to democracy; the Chinese nature rests strongly in the principles of Confuscianism where filial loyalty, respect for learning and elders are strong elements.
Sure, Mao's repressive dictatorship ran China rigidly for over half a century, but don't overlook a major example of "soft" socialism and huge economic capitalistic sucess sitting just 146 km away...the Republic of China on Taiwan.
It had its present origin in the ruthless autocracy of Chiang Kai-shek's Kuomingtan who operated a one-party government, but also listened to respected, educated, informed experts for advice.
In the late 1970s, the country's outstanding manufacturing, trade and economic sucess saw a lessening of autocracy and the legal formation of an opposition political party.
The ruling Kuomingtan continued to take advantage of Taiwan's unique central position of a nation sitting between the trading economies of Japan, it's previous coloniser, USA, and mainland China, and took up the best of which each power had to offer.
Taiwan is now probably the most influential country in the Pacific in terms of overseas investment, capital assets, productivity and a harmonious lifestyle.
It is definitely influencing mainland China with its example of a positive capitalist society, and is probably exerting enormous subtle influence on the population to follow suit.
This is one form of Chineseness influencing another.
With this, may well come a from of "softer" socialism leaning towards the political and social freedoms enjoyed by many Western societies, but it will have to grow from within China. I don't believe that an external way of life can be forced on a nation and acepted by its dwellers.
Judging by the outstanding successes of Taiwan, there is strong hope yet for the mainland.

re the author's comment:
"The Cold War has gone, but the battle between democracy and autocracy is far from over. It is essential democratic leaders act with courage and moral conscience when they make decisions that have global ramifications. It is also essential the public votes with a strong moral conscience to ensure the accountability of their leaders."

Maybe Australia, with our Mandarin-speaking PM can lead the charge. don't expect too much from the USA. The cyurrent administration's policies are likely to get but minor revision with the incoming government, whether it be Republican or Democrat. Both leaderships are locked into neoconservative policies and consequences of previous events. They are unlikely to change the policies or structure of the IMF or the WTO, or the current global free trade treaties

Both Russia and China were "democratised" by force. Yeltsin's attack on the Russian Parliament building, a few years after the massacre at Tiananmin Square, can be argued as a similar enforcement measure, to assure that radical economic reforms toward "free markets" would be successful.

If you're interested, Naomi Klein's book, The Shock Doctrine, is a very comprehensive history of the disconnect between free market economics and free speech movements.

Hello Jin,

By democracy, I assume you mean liberal democracy. The West's democracy grew our of Reformation from the Church and resistence to medieval arostrocracy.

China from the Chou to Qing dynasties was democracy, in theory, to the extent that The Son of Heaven [Tien] over the Middle Kingdom held his based on fair rule. The Emperor the middle stroke of Tien over Ren represents a high position; but only according to the nature of good rule. In China, leaders were changed by peasant revolutions. In Greece bu ostracization: Yet, Greek democracy was collectivist and Western democracy, individuaist.

The problem challenging China becoming a liberal democracy is the formation of oliarchs among the Shang and the bounded quanxi. China wants to be a super-power and saw it could not achieve this in 1953. Yet, it did demostrate a bit muscle with its non-Han provinces.

China has matured a sighnificantly in context that there are two sons in he sky, The trheads of The Gordian Knot for China are ethno-centrism, collectivism* and famililism. If the underlying fabric of a civilization is closed and elevates nepotism its leaders will be the same.

The lever I see is Wealth generation, which is achieved by integration with transnationals and the West.

The Sinic civilization split into the Chinese and Japanese civilization circa. 400 CE. Japan has made the transition; in part {Kietsu]. As Veblen noted in the early nineteenth century about Japan and Germany, rapid transition from feudal economy to a technologically advanced economy begs militarism. The West needs to provide economic advantages to China, so it doe not take the path of the old Japan and the old Germany.

* Perhaps collectivism would be last to go and an intermediate step over which one establishes law,as in Ancient Rome, introducing aspects of equality of the individual in due process.

Cheers.

O.

"China will have become an important world economic and military power, and it will still operate as an unaccountable repressive regime that does not respect human rights and democratic values."

So the so-called 'communist' oligarchs have modeled their State Capitalist system on the good ol' U$ofA then!

Error: Posted by Oliver, Thursday, 22 May 2008 1:06:06 PM

Veblen: twientieth century [c.1915], not nineteenth.

Early twentieth century. Please excuse the typos and that outright mistake.

I think the popularist books on Confucianism and the 36 Strategies highly superfical in working with China. The business person need good guanxi, for sure; but the Shang, the probable background to entrepeneurs, were on the outskirts of both Conficianism and Neo-Conficianism though the dynasties. Most Western business people not read the correct literaature and stand a good chance of being fleeced.

While note being a big drinker, I have enjoyed the occasion glass of XO with Chinese businessperson. The difference was I waas negotiating on behalf of Sinaporean and Hong Kong SAR companies headed by Chinese directors. Good work experience for an academic.

State Capitalism? Mussolini's Italy is an example. The dictator was the head of Government, Head of THe Party and The Head of "Corporations".

China also operates via a familial Diaspora as does the Jewish community. Close family are often spead across the significant Western countries. With Chin this could become a valuable conduit for "shared" wealth creation, but it requires oppeness

It is really interesting to note that in today’s world it is more important to schmooze up to, and kowtow with one of the most, well what can one say but depraved and deplorable regimes on the planet in order not to upset their big egos and jeopardize lucrative trade they might control.
Principles and ethics don’t count for squat, ‘Realpolitik’ is the order of the day.
But does anyone realize that this just equals Prostitution; for such stands will come back to haunt the perpetrators of such spineless behaviour.
Politicians would be the first to note failures to make a principled stand in past history, but the lessons arising from it eludes the grasp of every one of them.
Politicians are more concerned with small, short term gains to their ego, than grand, long term achievements that could make them an icon of respectability for generations to come.
No such luck however with the current crop of ‘Leaders’, even though the Tibet issue is such a clear cut, and well explored and documented issue.
That is if one omits the blatant distortions and fabrications the CCP incessantly proffers, and takes the facts as it has been well expounded by true experts, but whose voice is being drowned out by the cacophony of verbal venom, vitriol and lies from the CCP cabal.
Tibet is an illegally occupied country and the Chinese Leadership is at best a cabal that does not even recognize any civil code as we know it and needs to be put into its place.
If just one politician, parliament, country, could be the “first” to find a moral fibre left in its soul and make a stand and move on the Tibet issue; declare it an Occupied Country, raise the issue once again at the UN, recognize the Tibetan Government in Exile and thumb it to the Chinese as they constantly do to the rest of the world, and the rest of the “civilized” would follow.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xhjad2MJsT0 Get the true background on Tibet and the riots

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6a2ory5hr4g A careful look at history

Its Holy Bible time folks.
China never, ever, ever co-operates with the West!
If we look at the final book of the Holy Bible...Johns Revelation...chapters 9:16 and 16:12...we see a vast, unbelievably huge, asian confederacy army moving out of the east and across asia killing 1/3 of mankind...the destination is Armageddon north of Jerusalem. 200 million soldiers killing 2 billion people.
Thats China and those she pressurises to join her in the Bibles endtimes.
She never co-operated with anyone but continued to build for the day when she would "take down" the mighty USA with Russias help.
If theres anything we need to do, its pray for people in her path to escape her.
Check out the signs that we are in the endtimes re: the kings of the east.

When China looks at a decaying West,there is no way they will adopt democracy.

Our legal system was probably our greatest downfall.Litigation with a system whereby rights come before responsibilities,have made our Govts impotent and thus incapable of making decisions for the common good.

The West has lost it's momentum.It is both confused and divided.The new world order is of multi-nationals who sedate our Govts with donations and Govts who tinker at the edges of their impotence.

China will fill the void with their totalitarian philosophy and the multi-nationals will oblige to shore up their bottom lines.

"China will fill the void with their totalitarian philosophy and the multi-nationals will oblige to shore up their bottom lines."

Too true. Diplomacy has no friends, only interests.

Stop lying ,stop lying , stop lying [sorry but it’s a catchy chant , it just woke me up from my sleep,
maybe it will do the same for some of the rest of us

Democracy is about the voice of the individual acting as one to protect the individuals that make up the power behind democracy
,so why is a little Tibetan old man being yelled at by ‘Tibetans’ to stop lying?

Ok it’s a dumb question ,but it has the same answer as why is ‘petrol speculation by on line Ti-betten’ investors driving the price of oil and food through the roof

And the same answer as we saw when the world cheered on the Olympic flame that recently toured the world ,while Tibetan protesters protested ,but were soon overwhelmed by Chinese students defending their communist? Roots from the negative adverse affects of negative publicity

We have seen the weight of the Chinese day traders who nearly in their enthusiasm overwhelmed a emerging Chinese stock market [and rightly saw a tax put on their feeding frenzy [before it brought down china [and thus the world’s ]stock market [but by our greed is good philosophy ,we are failing to see the same ti-betting tiger consuming [overwhelming our resource markets [we thus need a day tax like china to stop these overwhelming and organised bettors on the dayly price of our foodstuff and resources of our enjoined survival , to save the world literally]

Stop lying resonates clearly the weight of the numbers that china needs to control [that indeed the world needs to control before un leased human nature destroys it all [any ALL our fearless/courage’s leader’s should [better] install a day trading tax immediately on all day trading on resources on our web based trading by these ‘’tibetan’ investors

Stop lying , stop lying , stop lying to yourselves , an unregulated day trader is destroying us for love of financial; gain

One under god,

Revelation? Nothing to do with China, methinks.

Revelation is an echo events occurring between the Romans and Jews. The two hundred thousand are “mounted” on horses. Moreover, thousands could be a pesher or a pneumonic, One has to be careful with the letter “s” its first century meaning. “S” being seen reproduction, not a distinct plural, wherein two hundred agreed with the thousand. My guess the large number is a pneumonic.

East refers to East of Euphrates [c. 70 CE]. Titus was in Emperor in charge of the military, while his father, Vespasian, was [a latent] Emperor in resident in Alexandria. East of the Euphrates, we have the Rome moving West; Babylon is just West of the Euphrates, and, is the target of the all those nasty angels with their bowls [phialēs]. Abaddōn {Armageddon] can refer “destruction” or the invaders being “unclean”, as a play on latrine.

China is to the West of Babylon {Rev. 18], nothing to do with the modern day West. The countries immediately East of the Euphrates are Turkey [Hittes], Syria, Iraq [Assyria} and Kuwait. The borders were a little different back then.

The Eschaton was forecast for the Year 4,000 on the Jewish calendar, 100 CE, Their guess was pretty accurate. There major wars in the 60s and 130s.

So,

1. China is not some evil empire in Revelation

2. Revelation is a micmic/echo of an historical event. The Roman crack-down on the Jews. Recall Augus and Tiberius were dead, and, the Annus Party now held have with Rome. Herods mob, we not really Jews in the first place and joined with the Iumæmens against Rome.

Kind regards.

And they could be coming here too Oliver.
Over fifteen years I managed to collect some 14 mentions in christian prophecy, or personal vision, from The Lord about an invader on Australian soil taking a piece of the country.
China has the only army large enough (200 million when its up and running) that can match the description mentioned in Revelation of 200 million soldiers (the "horses" description may only be a mystical one, their soldiers could as easily be mounted in trucks).
Revelation is also about events that generally havent happen yet.
Read 13:16-18 and 14:9-11 about the mark/microchip on either the right hand or forehead economy.
Its just starting to appear today, in 2008, in parts of the world as an alternative to cash and plastic cards.
We are not to take that mark/chip the Bible says (Revelation 14:9-11) but to resist the antichrist and his new money/ID mark.
Johns "Revelation vision" was sent to him when he was a prisoner on the Isle of Patmos asia minor.
He received it when he was on an island to the west of the Euphrates River mentioned in Revelation making the kings of the east army an army to the EAST of Patmos.
Mao said in 1963, I believe, that he could foot 200million soldiers at short notice.
It all fits that China be the great asian army called the kings from the east.

Gibo,

What would be China's motive? With cross-listings on stock exchanges, transnations and cross-country joint-ventures; what would be the point? I would be more worried about China not updating its trade practices and intellectual property laws.

As I state above China needs if it does become a superpower, there would be two suns in the sky, to defer th a Chinese expression, trade, rather than conflict will bring prosperity.

Recall the Missles of October? Neither, the US or Russia were mad enough to escalate to a nuclear war. Russia is largely Orthodox Christian or Athiest and China secularised, except for vague notions of spirits and ancestors; China knows if it were attack a major Western country, it will vaporised. Oliarchs wont be able to spend their money with every atom in their bodies split. They are not mad.

Oliver. The only vision I have of the future is in Johns Book of Revelation. There are a few prophecies around the web about the fall of the USA which might explain why such a huge asian army as the kings of the east can move outwards and across asia without any interference.
To bring about the fall of such a mighty nation as the USA is not impossible... just takes a great deal of stealth between Russia and China. The world of tommorrow is "pictured" as a world of great disasters and many wars and conflicts. Famines are everywhere, disease is spreading much greater (Luke 21), drought is all over Australia, petrol is as scarce as hens teeth...yet I believe many, many people are turning back, all over the world, to Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour. Massive global christian revival as God winds up history. If China is likely to do an outward march, it will because of the European antichrist spoken about in Revelation 13:-16-18; and all of the troubles he causes the world.
The Chinese wont want to take his "mark/microchip" on either the right hand or forehead so they will be at odds with him.
They will want to rule the earth... not some white skinned, blue eyed Adolf Hitler type out of the EU. Australia needs to begin building for the endtimes. The military is 3rd world. No one warns the populace. The churches are asleep. Yet the committed christians remain alert and constantly speak to each other about the final days. We're ready...I wish you John and Jane Doe's were too. See the mark of the beast 666, the signs that we are in the endtimes, Luke chapter 21.

ok you took the concept a bit further than i had intended
but armies can just as easilly be describing hoards as in very many

not nessesarilly organized from [or by ] china but mearly comming 'from the east' ,
the masses of day traders may possably need a mark of the beast[or a bank account number] to be trading

[i think most of the readers would be aware of the fiat currency scam thay has subverted true money [gold/silver coin-age] for the fiat banking paper notes

Remembering the early version of our money was a promise to pay in pounds weight in coin-age of sterling silver upon presentation at any commonwealth bank[that was removed with the intro of cupra-nickle coins [and with no promise to pay in sterling silver in 1966]by the neo [new] money changers [the 12 bankers who took over the fed reserve]

But interesting angle into revelations , from that of mt first hypothemous ; the chinese [communists] trading the value of resources into a hyper inflating cash price for the capita-lists

Chin Jin on "South Korea was responsive to international political pressure, and it has advanced accordingly"

The question is "Is South Korea an independent country?" and "where does South Korea come from?".

After South Korean got the full "independent" ability, they have the luxury to share the democracy.

Jin,

I think contributors deserve some feedback from you given there effort and comments. How about it?

I think Jin is having trouble typing a response, for all the tears of laughter at the Revelation talk the article has generated. Certainly brings a smile to my face.

IN RESPONSE:

Jin, I don’t think China is being ‘appeased’ at all. It was actually very frustrated with the so called ‘western media’ for its reporting of Tibet, it is always frustrated at every Government that allows the Dalai entry to talk and raise money, and if I had a dollar for every time they’ve accused a country/institution/individual for ‘interfering with internal affairs’, I’d be very wealthy. I think it’s far more dangerous to follow your line of thought to conclusion and pressure a nuclear-China into a corner. You should have a look at the history books and see where nations have flourished after having any divergent political system forced upon them from the outside, including multi-party democracy. Not many, I promise. The people have to want it, and slowly but surely, I see signs that they do AND that the CCP is slowly changing.

I don’t however think they deserved the Olympics just yet, so perhaps we agree on this

John Dorey,

Democracies are hard to come by. We are lucky to be living in time in a sphere of the World with democracy on the ascendency. Yet, we must realise that democracy is fragile, given the power brokers of any era, including our own. Power deeds to be mediated by the People.

Moreover, there is more than one kind of democracy. The Greeks had a collectivist and limited democracy. The Anglo-Western democracy is liberal, indididualist. German & Italy, in recent history, swapped democracy for State Capitalism, but have fortunately come back to the fold, Laissaire Faire Capitalism, inside free democracies.

Even in deep histographies China has not been a majot power. It did succeed over much less developed empires to its South, but for much of the time was militarily subordinate to the Manchus and the Mongols, whom had better access to Arbian horse stock. Even under Mao, Russia could have taken China at will; Russia's concern would not have been Beijing but Washington.

Jin seems to vanished from the scene.

Cheers.

p.s. their not there, of course, regaring earlier post.

hmmm, the ole post and run trick?

Oliver,
yes, there are many types of democracy and their creation does come through some fragility. I would say however, that modern democracies, those established within the last 100 years have became extremely robust. For example, America has been decimated, in my humble opinion, by neo-con policy lately. Such that its citizens are now looking to overthrow the ruler, however the only coup d'etat will come by way of americans voting for someone else. Hopefully without too much violence, but you can never tell with the US I guess. Anyway, my point being that democracy does seem to become strong enough to handle widespread grievances in an effective manner. For China to become a 'robust' democracy will take time. tens of thousands of protests are happening in China each year, mostly by peasant workers/farmers. If the CCP manages to increase the quality of their livlihoods without the introduction of even some democratic principles, I would be suprised. These small edgings forward is what has allowed for the 200 million or so Chinese that live relatively comfortably now.

To get back to Jin's point, I think the question is 'how do we remain engaged with China' rather than the West pushing China to democracy.

Did you notice that the leader of the new KMT Gov in Taiwan is having talks with Hu Jintao at the moment? (in Beijing i believe). This is a small example of democracy working its ways, and Taiwan is not really part of the 'west'.

We would do well to stay away from them rather than try and get them involved in anything we would do.

The Chinese are infamous for manipulation, as is seen in their manouvering in many a UN event.

They already have young Kevin Rudd in their back pocket seduced and "pipe smoking" his dreams of things Chinese, or so it seems, and that is the beginning of a long road that could see a communist government here on day.
A thousand Chinese spies arent here for nothing (Chen Yonglin).
Part of their job will be to ease us into the Chinese way. The other part will be to map and photo everything for the future invasion of New South China.

Dear John Dorey,

Excuse my late reply. I still need to revise my knowledge of the KMT from the 1920s, before commenting, and, have been elsewhere occupied, preventing from that goal.

That said, I think with the KMT in the '20s; they became entangled with Western banks and Japanese Banks [Japan was later to invade them as you know]. The profiteers cared little for the peasants in the provinces, who eventually became Mao's foundation.

The situation was made more complex provincial warloads. In Shanghai, the KMT joined-up with triads with deep roots into the corrupt Chinese police and use that to advantage to quash the warloads.

However, Japan was a threat, the KMT faced Japan with a conventional military force and Mao with guerilla forces. Yet, the former remained a priviledged class; whilst the latter peasants-of-the-revolution. Moreover, China, at first, ceded land fairly quickly, owing to memories of Japan's wins over Russia in 1905.

Ethically, the Han are very cohesive, and, Chinese away from the China PRC mainland are still regarded as Ethnic-Chinese away from the Middle Kingdom, temorarily, even after lifetimes.

When the KMT went to Taiwan, investment was aimed at building industry to retake the homeland. Only, these guys found capitalism pretty good and continued to build a country.

As opposed to the West, I think that China PRC demands deference and acknowledgement, rather than dominance in the Western sense, that goes back to at 1601, when Elizabeth I started issuing miltary backed monopolies to target colonies-to-be.

I would think it an insult for JH to have sent a lowly colonel to meet Hu Jintao in Canberra.

I think there is plenty of scope for re-unification, yet the Chinese PRC Shang are a different kind of entrepreneur to the Taiwanese Capitalist.

Moreover, China's two-fronts are between the West and its own Western peasantry.