PAUL L... u missed out on Comrade Mercurious :) on your list.. (sorry Merc but you do have 'different' views on things)

WHITE SHEET (Western Democratic roots/traditions)....with a black dot in the middle.(various despots and would be tyrants)

"WHAT...do you see"? asks the teacher holding up the sheet to the class.'
"We see a black dot" they chime... aah.. some see only the small insignificant black dot rather than the sheet it was painted on.

BD now introduces "MERCURIOUS the EXISTENTIALIST" Well hi there folks :)

<<Why not leave the cultural baggage to the dead people and stop looking for your future in the past?>>

Merc.. of ALL people.. "you" being Jewish should know 2 things.

1/ How far back the wonderful traditions of your own people go, and how wonderfully social welfare was developed in that society of Ancient Israel.

2/ How CLOSE history came to wiping out YOU and yours, with the rise of the 3rd Reich.

You should also know that 'living for the moment' and not considering the past in our contemplation of the future is irrational in the extreme, but it does explain some of your other material 0_^

For me.. I see 2 other major pivotal points in History, 732 and 1683
I think by now you know to what I'm referring.. two 'how close it came' battles which, if lost, would have ended any chance of democracy that could ever enjoy.

ENGLISH CIVIL WAR was TOTally different from the French Revolution, and was about freedom of worship, not about lack of bread.

OLIVER.. are we on the same linguistic planet old son? I sometimes have to pray for the gift of "Interpretation of Tongues" to understand some of your words :)

Capitalism and democracy are two different ideas. China and Russia are largely capitalist but not exactly democratic.

We should also remember that democracy is very fragile and has to come from within. I don't think it can be imposed by outsiders. eg After WWI in 1919 most of Europe was democratic 15 years later much of it was run by dictators.

The European Union has been very effective to lure southern, central and eastern Europe into democracy with promises of wealth and high living standards but within the scale of this article it is brand new.

Paul L and Cowboy Joe fail to mention their right wing reactionary politics. The very political tendency workers have been fighting all their life; rightwing nationalist politics. For instance, the rightwing always fight to get to the head of every dispute so they can sell it out.

The socialists are not the only ones who see the failure and tendencies of the capitalist system based on exploiting labor and every aspect of life that turns a profit. The Financial Times last week published an admonishing column by David Rothkopf, author of Superclass: The Global Power Elite and the World They are Making.

“The credit crisis is exacerbating the emerging backlash against corporate excess,” he wrote. “Elites make billions on markets whether they go up or down and their institutions win government support while the little guy loses his home. Multinational chief executives 30 years ago made 35 times the wages of an average employee; today it is more than 350 times. The crisis has focused attention on the obscene inequities of this era—the world’s 1,100 richest people have almost twice the assets of the poorest 2.5 billion.”
As Marx wrote back in the late 1840's:“Accumulation of wealth at one pole,” he wrote, “is, therefore, at the same time accumulation of misery, agony of toil, slavery, ignorance, brutality, mental degradation, at the opposite pole, i.e., on the side of the class that produces its product in the form of capital.

“There is not one source of authority - there are many.”

And I believe the success of any society is the devolution of that authority as far out as possible / practicable, away from a centralist system of government.

Hence, people free to cut their own way through their lives rather than being hamstrung by the edicts of central / state governments.

Government cut back to a minimum, with limited powers reduces the opportunity for despots and makes life better / safer for us all.

Passy “The magnificent revolutions in eastern Europe to overthrow Stalinism show that the thirst for freedom and democracy lives on in the heart of working people everywhere. “

Those against Stalinism must have been after he died. They certainly did not happen when he was alive.

Or, are you talking about those who tore down the Berlin Wall and embraced market capitalism as the future, after decades of socialist mediocrity?

“In fact I would go so far as to say the very process of capitalist production hot wires this thirst for freedom and democracy into workers.”

Na, too busy being earning overtime and paying off the car loan.

Like Keith said “Time to leave the failures behind Passy.”

US “Capitalism may also still fail eventually.”

It might but it has succeeded for centuries whilst communism was inflicted and failed after only 7 decades.

Re communist ladies versus the capitalist ladies giving over their children, the difference

Commie gals were forced, by order of the state.

Capitalist gals is her choice.

Re “choice”, history would suggest, having a communist system is something which no one gets to vote on anyway.

btw I am not scared of the reds-under-the-bed, I just like to remember and learn from the lessons of history.

Regarding the English Civil War - The Lord Protector, Oliver Cromwell, when he died was replaced by who ?

what happened to poor old Ollies remains?

He was posthumously beheaded, hardly a good reference for revolutionaries.

And the French revolution, who was responsible for period affectionately called “the Terror”

This wage slave, right wing reactionary has also been a union rep, currently a union member and was once a member of the United Mine Workers.

It flabbergasts me that there are still living anachronisms who think the ills of capitalism justify communism.

Capitalism in the USA is highly regulated, anti trust legislation that leaves Australia's for dead, low or nil taxes for low wage earners. Corporations are regulated hence one reason for the spike in fuel prices since the 'left' has prevented any new oil refineries in the US for over 35 years. China is more capitalistic than the USA. O'bama would not be where his is at if the US were a capitalistic society. Many, many Americans believe the government owes them a living, good health and a retirement.

Every political party has extremists. Labor has the communists, the Extreme Greens, and the Socialists, One Nation had a few White Supremacists, and the Libs have the fundamentalist Christians.

I would rather have the avarice of the 1,100 richest in the world influencing world economic events than an 'elected' politburo that can not be voted out and who crave political power with same zeal as Imelda Marcos eyeing off a new pair of shoes.

Freedom is about fewer laws, lower taxes, fewer public servants, the right to protect your own life and property and the right to become a highly educated, narrow-minded, ideologue with an enormous chip on ones shoulder if for some unfathomable reason it makes said person happy.

Socialism and the massive government required to prop it up is anti freedom.

History tends to avoid some of the unfortunate facts surrounding Madison and many of the "founding fathers" of American government.
What they wanted was a pure Republic and not a Democracy. Sort of what they had under the British but without Royalty.

They believed that Government was too important to be entrusted to appointment by the masses and wanted it to be comprised of - and directly appointed by - members of the wealthy elite and influential in society.

A couple of hundred years later and it seems that they are finally getting their wish.

Where they failed was that they also wanted the Constitution to be updated every generation because "the man should not be made to wear the clothes of the child".

I think it was also Madison who said that their new Government will serve them well - but only for a while - because like everything man creates, it will become corrupted and cease to be effective and must also be updated as conditions change.

Brace yourselves for the New World Order, coming soon to a Government near you.