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The Forum > Article Comments > A world of understanding > Comments

A world of understanding : Comments

By Claudia Mainard, published 7/5/2008

Learning a second language gives us an improved understanding the world, as much as it helps us to be understood.

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I have not changed my position mil-observer - although I suspect you are trying to suggest that and are perhaps trying to back away from your own.
Yes, Rudd mentioned 4 languages but he is still emphasising just two of those - Mandarin and Japanese. The other 2 Korean and Indonesian are second best in his book and, of the first two, Chinese clearly (and understandably) takes preference for him. (By the way Kevin Rudd does not write his own speeches in Chinese. They are written for him.)
Unfortunately those four languages are not enough even if we never did business outside 'the Asian region'.
It's a waste of resources unless we do the job properly and, given the other demands on the curriculum and the language rights of others, we are going to go on wasting resources. We need a new an entirely new approach to language learning and teaching.
Posted by Communicat, Saturday, 10 May 2008 4:55:53 PM
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Thanks K,
[readers please trill your Rs in a clipped, refined fashion]
A Robust, eRudite, tRuly, pRoperly bRed and Refined Riposte to the anti-Racist. A Resounding demonstRation of class/bReeding
[and so on - play some 18th century chamber music (any will do, like in a car ad) in the background for ambience appRopRiate for class/race pRetensions and pRoperty values]
Posted by mil-observer, Saturday, 10 May 2008 5:01:31 PM
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Jo Lo Bianco's recent article in this feature is worth a look - his recommended strategy will result in quality language teaching and effectively sidelines the question of which language.
Posted by BAYGON, Saturday, 10 May 2008 5:03:53 PM
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Communicat,

I did not suggest that you are changing your position, just as I reject any suggestion that I have backed away from anything. I think what you really saw is how our initially broad, standard-bearing assertions have now taken on greater complexity and subtlety; such is always the case whenever people overcome the limitations of a culture's adversarial mentality (and yes, I was brought up in just such a system, if you hadn't noticed). So I think we have both moved on from flag waving towards more practical discussion about policy, pedagogy, etc.

I feel uncomfortable ending up as a defender of Rudd: he certainly has enough people to do that for him, and he doubtless can and will do enough in that cause himself! But I think you will find that his speeches in English are written for him too, just as premiers and many ministers employ people for that task (as did Churchill, despite some hagiographers' claims).

Besides, if Rudd seems louder advocating Mandarin and Japanese, that would reflect the different, more symbolic nature of Rudd's new job and its brutal preoccupation with matters of trade volume and other strategic mass. It would shock me to see him neglect the Indonesian part of the 94 report; it would also alienate a still influential residue of Australian Indonesia specialists. But your point does reignite my concern for how we could get a fair boost for Korean.

Therefore, I agree with what I believe to be the pivotal elements of your position in your comments “a waste of resources unless we do the job properly...the language rights of others” and that “we need an entirely new approach”. I back Mercurius' comparison with the Snowy Scheme (see after BAYGON's tip-off at http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=7329&page=0), but even that analogy may not fit given the less materially obvious and more intensively intellectual quality of the objective. So maybe you too think that the task is so vital and overdue that it should form the very core of an Australian education revolution?
Posted by mil-observer, Saturday, 10 May 2008 5:52:06 PM
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Mil Observer

You've only challenged my view that we should at least include if not emphasise the learning of Latin in our education structures.

I've given explanations why I think the learning of Latin beneficial. I've shown I accepted learning language, any language, has many benefits. I've indicated I believe learning Asian languages is not as beneficial to our intellectual development as learning Latin based or influenced languages.

I've never ridiculed nor criticised your positions at all. I have responded in kind to your personal taunts ...albiet with much more finese.

Why cannot you behave in a similar decent fashion?

From this discussion I see you've adopted simple positions on the education of languages. You desire to change the way we are and think learning Asian languages will achieve that outcome.

'There has for so long been a need for much more language-training investment to effect the strategically seismic cultural change critical for this country's future;...'

In this regard I have fundamental questions:
(1)Why do we need to strategically seismically change the culture of this country?

(2)Why do you think that particular change is critical to this country's future?

(3)Are you against learning about and developing ourselves in all areas, including our own histories?

I don't understand the basis you have for the following generalisation.

'...such is always the case whenever people overcome the limitations of a culture's adversarial mentality (and yes, I was brought up in just such a system, if you hadn't noticed).'

In light of my stated belief our culture has a history of being accepting and adaptable I find it incredible you can describe it only in terms of being adverserial, without justifiable explanation.

As regards upbringing, most of us are bought up in a family and not a system. It's the family that has most influence over our natures and attitudes. The family usually adopts the community culture. We in the west have shown to have developed to be not always adversarial. In light of our political and cultural structures, I think we are more concillitory.

Such a tone would enhance our discussion.
Posted by keith, Sunday, 11 May 2008 3:40:41 PM
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Language teaching certainly needs a major overhaul mil-observer but what Kevin Rudd appears to be advocating is that all students be taught Mandarin or, maybe, Japanese, without any thought for anything else or the way in which any language is going to be taught. (And he has allowed the rumour to spread that he writes his own speeches in Chinese - it was repeated to me by a Labor Senator only last weekend. When I questioned it he hesitated and then backed off.)
I'd agree with Cath Gunn, the woman who got International Literacy Year off the ground, "the most important thing a human being learns to do is communicate" (and she went on to say that communication is multi-faceted and immensely complex and that everyone should have access to multiple means of communicating with others). Until we start at that point we will get nowhere. We need to go beyond the idea that students in Australia should learn English and perhaps one other language - the latter based on about 150-200mins of instruction per week. The problem is that the curriculum is filled to the hilt with other things - some of little value but precious to those who teach them and thus unlikely to be removed without a fight.
Unless the demand for language learning comes from the community nothing will change. Demand for language learning certainly will not come while the emphasis is on languages that parents and the community see as irrelevant to the language needs and usage in the community.
Languages are living, growing, constantly changing ways of communicating - not a sterile page of words or characters to be learned for the classroom test in the morning.
Posted by Communicat, Sunday, 11 May 2008 5:12:47 PM
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