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The Forum > Article Comments > A world of understanding > Comments

A world of understanding : Comments

By Claudia Mainard, published 7/5/2008

Learning a second language gives us an improved understanding the world, as much as it helps us to be understood.

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Right, so I readily admit I may be biased here - but I agree and think that learning another language is part of a true commitment towards peace and global understanding.

I remember how my understanding of different cultures was heightened when learning different languages and finding, for instance that the French had no word for "wife"; in Zulu there is no word for "Thank You"; that in Mandarin personal pronouns are not gender specific and in PNG pigin no word for "love".

Negotiating ones way through communications with these and a myriad of other differences gives a much broader perspective to cultural differences than any dry factoids could ever do.
Posted by Romany, Wednesday, 7 May 2008 9:46:42 AM
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What few people appreciate that having English as your first language can in fact be a disadvantage. For most of the world learning English as a second language tends to be the norm. This means that whilst the rest of the world is travelling into our world we are isolated from the realities of the various other worlds. Innocentas abroad we have very little real understanding of the way people in other cultures think. Does this matter? Perhaps a couple of examples: Standing on the railway platform somewhere in Vietnam you are either able to understand the announcements in Vietnamese or you are not. If you can understand them you will hear that the vendors are reminded to overcharge the tourists for the country needs the foreign currency. The assumption of the announcer is that the tourists will not understand Vietnamese so they can talk about them with impunity. (Mind you I have no problems with being charged extra; we should be prepared to share some of our affluence.)
Example 2. A colleague went to Israel to negotiate a deal. Whilst he was waiting the people with whom he was negotiating were talking hebrew amongst themselves. Unbeknownst to them he could speak Hebrew fluently. He kept quiet. When the meeting commenced he said, in Hebrew, "Gentlemen, whilst waiting you discussed what your best deal ought to be. So lets cut to the chase; I accept your best offer."
The rest of the world tends to assume that English speakers will not understand them and hence can use language as a weapon to achieve their own ends.
Lets hope that the outcome of this month's feature is a fresh commitment to end Australia's linguistic isolation.
Posted by BAYGON, Wednesday, 7 May 2008 10:06:08 AM
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Learning other languages does heighten awareness of another culture in a different way than through travel.

I also learnt a second language at school which also happened to be the language of my overseas relations and it gave me a greater insight into their culture (the childhood culture of my father). Later I dabbled with French and Arabic and a bit of Latin. The greatest discovery was the interconnectedness of language, the derivation of many English words and a sense of historical context.

If I had more time and more discipline I would love to learn Latin more thoroughly and even Gaelic (the language of my mother's ancestors). The sad fact is some languages, like Gaelic are at risk of dying out, many older Nordic langauges have all but all but disappeared.
Posted by pelican, Wednesday, 7 May 2008 10:06:41 AM
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What an irony.

In this country of immigrants we are flooded by various languages as people enter the nation, yet invariably at the back end these languages are lost through the non-teaching of the original language by the parents to their offspring.

Yet, in a mono-cultural country like Greece (emigation to Greece only occured in the last 15 years), most people under 30 speak Greek and English (not to mention other languages).

Sorry Claudia, I doubt this country will change this sorry fact. We will become as increasingly ignorant of the rest of the world as the USA.

Savvas
Posted by Savvas Tzionis, Wednesday, 7 May 2008 10:07:24 AM
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I would say that studying other languages has other benefits too.

Because each and every language also crafts or moulds our sense of self, how we perceive the "world out there", and how we relate to other humans and the world altogether.

Different language groups effectively live in different "worlds".

We never ever see the world as it is but only ever see our brain and nertvous-system created projections.

Two early pioneers in this understanding were Benjamin Whorf the author of Language Thought & Reality.

1. http://mtsu32.mtsu.edu:11072/Whorf

And Alfred Korzybski the author of General Semantics.

1. http://www.generalsemantics.org

As for the study of Latin. Let the dead bury the dead. Quite useless in my opinion.
Posted by Ho Hum, Wednesday, 7 May 2008 10:44:49 AM
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Here is another couple of perspectives.

Learning another language increases the intellect. More notably however the history of education in the West had as a cornerstone the learning of Latin. The object wasn't to become fluent to understand Romans or Italians. It was simply recognised learning latin improved the intellect. Whether learning other languages does the same ... well I don't really know but my experience suggest learning a Latin influenced European language might well do so. I've noted, among my son's cohort of recent Engineering graduates (Something in massive short supply) a second language and predominantely Latin seems to be common. Mathematics (Applied) graduates seems to have a similar language influence. There is no former Asian language student or Asians among either of his cohorts.

Another viewpoint has been touched upon but not explored in any depth. Learning Latin is predominantly achieved by studying the classics. In simple terms these constitute many of the foundations of our society, and lead to a greater respect and understanding of ourselves. They also generate an interest in following further reading in the areas of the development of our Western culture. That is probably more important to us in dealing with aspects of other cultures especially those that are fundamentally at odds with our own.

Notable in this is the clash of cultures. Our Western culture because of our history is open, accepting and extroverted in nature. It's very essence is democratic. While we adopted the historically closed and introverted semitic Mid Eastern religions our practise has tended to be limited to the more modern and open New Testament and especially the 'Sermon on the Mount' by Christ. Hence our Christianity. We've also abandoned the dominace of religion on our political life .. by choice.

Our history as our language is based in a Greek and Hebrew compromise.
Posted by keith, Wednesday, 7 May 2008 11:54:00 AM
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As regards Asian languages, few are based in or greatly influenced by either a theology or a philosophy. The hallmarks of English. The societies they have emerged from are and have been ...GENERALLY'... isolationist, dictatorial, introspective and introvert.

Yes sure learn Asian languages for commercial benefit but learn Latin first. I think it is best to know oneself before one can establish sensible relationships with others. How can you understand difference if you cannot first know or understand yourself.

Finally Kevin Rudd's use of Mandarin is not a good example. While he spoke openly to the Chinese about Tibet ... the response from the representative of the Chinese people should have been quite telling.

It was reported in the Australian media the Chinese President Hu lectured Rudd.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23570349-18544,00.html

I'd love to see that lecture reported in more depth and more widely in Australia.

It would dispute the claim:

'... the depth of his fluency and cultural knowledge that his “rhetoric” was perceived as “more tactful and less nasty”.'

Hu showed he certainly didn't think along those lines.
Posted by keith, Wednesday, 7 May 2008 11:54:12 AM
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Keith, I'll try to swat gently as I suspect you're just being a gadfly with your blue-chip-and-ivy hurrahs for "western civilization", empah, etc. If, however, you really are defending your Khyber pass against the dreaded mongol hordes, then I should defer to BAYGON to give you a thorough spray.

Your call for greater self-knowledge seems funny in the context of Latin and Ancient Rome. In many ways, the Romans had more in common with their oriental counterparts than with modern westerners. Take for example feudal Japan's seppuku and the Roman "falling on one's sword": the same suicidal motive and concept, just different techniques of swordsmanship. And no western fantasy about "valuing human life more highly" either. Then there's Rome's imperialist and theocratic influences and their many Asian parallels; not fundamentally democratic. Indeed, so many distinctions between "Europe" and "Asia" appear so contrived when we trace the Indic-Caucasian commonalities underlying both hemispheres' religious and linguistic heritage.

I don't doubt that Claudia and Keith have some decent grasp of Latin, but there's an obvious cop-out or even self-indulgent fantasy lurking behind all the warmth around dead languages (and artificial ones like the previous contributor's [D]esperanto). Where are the native speakers who can truly best judge your ability in these languages?

The student cannot really engage such languages properly i.e., in a lived, authentic encounter involving communication in real societies. Where can the Latin student confront the necessary challenge of colloquial Latin in a market or at a party? Just as Esperanto is most at home in a test tube, Latin exists now as an archival or archaeological language; useful for sciences, law and other languages, but not as the properly dynamic challenge and reward we can find in our many lived languages.

So step into the arena Keith et al, and take on a real language to see how you perform. Make a decent effort and the natives may either laugh or salute you. Avoid the challenge altogether and its the lions' meal time: we barbarians will not even have to give 'thumbs down'.
Posted by mil-observer, Wednesday, 7 May 2008 1:50:53 PM
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Do you want to use latin in a party setting? Go to the Vatican! Great parties conducted in latin.
Posted by BAYGON, Wednesday, 7 May 2008 2:05:33 PM
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Kevin Rudd may speak Chinese but there are very few Australians of non-Chinese background who will ever have any occasion to do so. The obsession with Asian languages is putting our entire programme of language learning in schools at risk. We are going to end up with even fewer students who are able to use a second language. My sons were required to learn Chinese at school. They were also able to choose between French or German. They had twice the contact hours in Chinese as they started in their first year and did not start French until the first year of the secondary school. They ceased learning Chinese two years before the end of the secondary school. It was proving too time consuming and they still could not read a simple newspaper text. They took French at the school certificate level and have used the language successfully on holiday in France, Quebec and French Polynesia. In China they found they could not make themselves understood apart from a few polite phrases. Their school has 'an excellent reputation' (an outside assessment) for the teaching of Chinese.
I suggest that second-language learning is an essential part of any education but the languages, the way they are taught and the time devoted to them all need to be considered - and the fact that a language has x number of words for snow, direction, gum trees or anything else does not have to be only part of a language lesson.
Let's get real about this debate and stop being in awe of a Prime Minister who speaks Mandarin. It does not mean that we all need to imitate him or toady to the Chinese hierarchy. There are also other politicians who speak a second language and not because it is their mother tongue. Most of them don't feel the same need to show off.
Posted by Communicat, Wednesday, 7 May 2008 3:45:13 PM
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[This discussion is definitely a crossed wire! Refer to my and Communicat's other postings at http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=7307&page=0]

Communicat: if you set low standards then you will probably be lucky to achieve even such low standards anyway. As I mention in the side discussion at : such Romance and Germanic languages are almost as close as dialects when compared against a proper diversity of languages. I mean, Communicat's timid mentality of mediocrity and failure does not even seem able to contemplate Slavonic languages, despite their firm European grounding. Why not? Russian, etc., would be deemed too hard for Communicat.

Imagine a similar attitude among the polyglot Hungarians or Finns, renowned for their widespread mastery of several European languages. Both peoples do not speak Indo-European languages as their first - they are (forgive the tautology) Finno-Ugric. But who among them would propose the absurd notion that they should avoid European languages because of the deeper structural and lexical differences, and despite geographical proximity. Imagine the nervous Budapest professor advocating greater stress on Japanese, Korean and Mongol tongues because of their smoother connection to old Magyar!
Posted by mil-observer, Wednesday, 7 May 2008 5:04:53 PM
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Whatever language k.rudd speaks he hasnt said much so far.

l've got 2 languages after english. At the folks we sometimes speaks a 3 way hybrid of Span-glish-talian.

l dunno about all the romantic and idealised notions positted as resulting from being able to speak in different languages. Its hard enough using one language correctly to communicate with clarity and reason. What matters is whats being said, rather than being able to swear and say nothing in more than one language. Personally, english is my favoured choice when doing this.
Posted by trade215, Wednesday, 7 May 2008 7:52:55 PM
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Careful mil-observer you are misrepresenting my position. I am (from the position of being able to use multiple languages, two of them Asian) suggesting that IF (1) we are going to teach Asian languages at all then there needs to be far greater time devoted to them. This is not 'dumbing down' in any way because those who use these languages as their mother tongue also require greater time to learn to read and write them. (2) One of the reasons we fail to effectively teach languages is because there are very few opportunities for learners to use them outside the classroom. We can put in all the classroom resources we like but there have to be outside opportunities, some reason to learn the language. In this a largely monolingual, English speaking country which is geographically isolated is at a great disadvantage. (3) It makes sense to use local resources such as migrants who are native speakers of other languages but we largely fail to do this. (4) The notion that we need to learn Mandarin (something by no means all Chinese speak)or Japanese simply because they are Asian languages and trading partners is to exclude languages like Thai, Cambodian, Pilipino etc. We do also do business in other areas of the Pacific but I do not hear a call for anyone to teach Samoan or Pidgin or the French of French Polynesia.
There is a bias here towards two languages because they are somehow seen as the 'right' languages to learn at the exclusion of everything else. For that reason far better to have all children learn something of an Indo-European language in the limited time devoted to second language learning and take those who look as if they might have the aptitude and interest and offer them scholarships for intensive study here and abroad.
It's an approach which makes sense to me - and many others.
Posted by Communicat, Thursday, 8 May 2008 11:27:36 AM
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Mil-observer.

Ponder the operation of that mil (sic) and you’ll come to the conclusion it was designed by some anonymous mathematician or engineer… who doubtless had some knowledge of the mathematics of the Ancients. If you dared go forward and follow the footsteps in advances of thought and Western science you’d see why such quaint antiquities as mills are now redundant. With a modicum of enquiry you’d discover, while the first principles are still employed, how our developing technology has allowed for greater efficiency and elegance. Thanks to great Western thinkers, mostly mathematicians, engineers and some forward focused scientists we’ve overseen the development of the practises of the mathematics and sciences of the Ancients. Thus developed communications, electricity generation and machinery of a nature and calibre unheard of in older civilisations of other baser barbaric hemispheres.

We long ago left the desire for ritual suicide and a low value of human life where they belonged … in less educated, less thoughtful and more introverted times… and such is the way with Western growth and development.

Alas my lesson might be too deep for those who think our history and language doesn’t influence the spectacular place we sit in the world and for those who concentrate on past inglorious episodes rather than accept and adopt the growth and renewal that is inherent to our culture.

I don’t know much Latin. I did learn srpskohrvatski some years ago when I had an association with a Jugoslaviji government company. It has both Latin and Cyrillic alphabets. I’ve never completed a university degree. I’ve read widely. But the opinion I’ve developed over the last twenty years or so is not something anyone with a modicum of decency or intelligence would dare sneer at.

Like to sit with me for a day or two and compare reading lists … and intellect?

Do you know of Michael Faraday? An Englishman.
Do you know of Jean Fourier? A Frenchman.
Do you know of Arthur Edwin Kennelly? An American.
Do you know of their significance to today’s world
See if you can find answers without reference to Wikipedia
Posted by keith, Thursday, 8 May 2008 12:28:49 PM
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Without the intellect and communicative abilities of these Westerners we wouldn’t be communicating in the current media. Those abilities were anchored in the practises of the Greeks and the languages of Latin and Greek

At this juncture note much of the Ancient Greek knowledge came from parts further east notably the Persians and Arab Empire. I suspect you’d altogether miss the point I’m making.

So I’ll spell it out in simple terms.

Those empires have been overtaken, as have their ability to generate innovative intellectual thought and develop new technologies, by the West.

Have you ever stopped to wonder why? Leave the observation of that mill for a little and broaden your mind ... somewhat.

Here I’ll debunk any future claim you likely will make about the current Asian Empires. They mimic and miniaturise western creativity.

And one final point. The greatest strength of western civilisation and culture has been and is it’s ability to adapt the ideas and philosophies of the cultures it meets in the world. That has been it’s mode for generations. But along with that ability has been the underlying belief in it’s own strengths and abilities. If we lose that then the west will decay. While our universities train and produce engineers, mathematicians, scientists, classically trained historians, philosophers and medico’s and while some of us still ponder the classics we won’t lose that self-belief. So take heart and don’t sink into the despair you are displaying…all will be well.

Baygon. You should attend Tibet, Saudi Arabia or Tiananmen Square for pointless parties in languages and behaviours no-one can understand.

God the Olympics are Greek in origin. I bet there are a few philosophers from that age spinning in their graves in disgust at the present circus surrounding that event. Where are the other great civilisations equivalence … the more sports minded of us might dare to ask?

The English language and Western methods … such simplicity … Why do you find it so easy to criticise those things that have given you the chance at the very comfortable and interesting life you should be leading?
Posted by keith, Thursday, 8 May 2008 12:29:06 PM
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Communicat: Yes, my labelling of your position was provocative and now appears premature, but what I identified was your (then) position's very obvious potential to give succour to our country's complacent non-linguists.

You make very important points for practical consideration. Native-speaker teachers is part of a general problem: not enough teachers, and too many of minimal ability. But you risk misrepresenting advocates (including Rudd) when you cite “the big two” i.e., Mandarin and Japanese. In fact, the 1994 Rudd Report identified a “big four” as Mandarin, Indonesian, Japanese and Korean. I share your concern there and want to check their justification for that narrowing-down – probably done via some econorat reductionism citing trade and growth figures, but that would be compatible with a more avowedly “strategic” and practical focus. Also, “Philippino” doesn't really exist: a few of my friends speak Cebuano and Tagalog, with passive skill in other Philippines regional languages.

But I believe the matter of exposure/contact time can mislead given Australia's pre-existing small commitment to language teaching. There has for so long been a need for much more language-training investment to effect the strategically seismic cultural change critical for this country's future; such need is merely emphasized by the increasingly recognized challenges in tonal, non-Roman-character Asian languages.

keith: Your differences with me seem more religious in nature, so I'll bypass your hallowed ground of Thermopylae where you can wave the sword at someone keener to engage on those grand points about “western civilization” and which towering white guys have the bigger obelisks of creative genius, intellect, etc.

Separately, though, you're using English here so you really meant “Serbo-Croatian” and “Yugoslavian”. Beware: some linguists deduce fakery from poseurs' awkward use of foreign vocabulary (“bahasa” is a classic. Literally meaning “language”, some drop the word to mean, and imply that they speak, Indonesian). Also, Serbian and Croatian friends taught me enough of their respective tongues to inform that they are separate languages (notwithstanding some well-intentioned Yugoslav efforts at overcoming those differences). Are their respective alphabets not Cyrillic (Serbian) and Roman (Croatian)?
Posted by mil-observer, Thursday, 8 May 2008 3:46:38 PM
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A few months ago I posted an article about languages (under my name rather than this nom de guerre i.e. John Töns) The more recent comments on this topic highlight the problems that we face - public indifference, lack of resources and the disagreements about which languages to teach.
A useful starting point to counter public indifference and in the process address the other two over a longer timeframe is to use our existing languages as a starting point.
Currently there are about 100 languages used in Australia (this includes Aboriginal languages.) If our starting point was merely to provide support for these bilingual children so that they develop their cognitive skills in both English and at least one other language then we will also build up our reservoir of competent second language teachers. As far as which language is concerned it is high time that those with a commitment to languages stopped trying to find socio-economic reasons for learning languages - why should languages be treated any differently to other curriculum areas? Should we only teach art, music, physical education, history, geography etc if and only if we can make a commercial case for these subjects? Surely all those curriculum areas merit support for their intrinsic worth regardless of any economic outcomes.
Posted by BAYGON, Thursday, 8 May 2008 4:08:32 PM
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So Mil-Observer

You entered the arena joining the chorus of the mob. You valiantly challenged and provoked a champion of the Thespians, the adorers of Eros. Ahhh so much more seemly than your crude analogies, don't you think?.

You presented armed to the teeth with high minded criticism and derision.

And when challenged, silence befell the crowd, it turns out your armaments were of papier-mâché. In disgrace you've slunk away in a cowering bravado giving a final empty and meaningless gesture, a sort of proverbial, a poorly supported thinly cultured finger.

If you want to engage one of Leonidas's like minded you'd better bring more than the Persians or ... Southern Balkins...
Want to try again? Do so but leave your paper Mache sword at home and please bring a substantial shield.

If you'd truely read and understood the first Historian, even in English, perhaps you'd have been a tad better armed.

I think you'd be better suited contesting a battle at Thermae.

By the way, I found the the Croations spoke hrvatskisrpsko and the Serbians srpskohrvatski in the times of Markovic and Milosevic. At that time unity was paramount even though really only a facade.

And finally, is you position so weak that you needed to raise the issue of race in a discussion of language and culture? Are you Europhobic?

Or as it just that you hate yourself?
Posted by keith, Saturday, 10 May 2008 3:22:12 PM
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I have not changed my position mil-observer - although I suspect you are trying to suggest that and are perhaps trying to back away from your own.
Yes, Rudd mentioned 4 languages but he is still emphasising just two of those - Mandarin and Japanese. The other 2 Korean and Indonesian are second best in his book and, of the first two, Chinese clearly (and understandably) takes preference for him. (By the way Kevin Rudd does not write his own speeches in Chinese. They are written for him.)
Unfortunately those four languages are not enough even if we never did business outside 'the Asian region'.
It's a waste of resources unless we do the job properly and, given the other demands on the curriculum and the language rights of others, we are going to go on wasting resources. We need a new an entirely new approach to language learning and teaching.
Posted by Communicat, Saturday, 10 May 2008 4:55:53 PM
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Thanks K,
[readers please trill your Rs in a clipped, refined fashion]
A Robust, eRudite, tRuly, pRoperly bRed and Refined Riposte to the anti-Racist. A Resounding demonstRation of class/bReeding
[and so on - play some 18th century chamber music (any will do, like in a car ad) in the background for ambience appRopRiate for class/race pRetensions and pRoperty values]
Posted by mil-observer, Saturday, 10 May 2008 5:01:31 PM
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Jo Lo Bianco's recent article in this feature is worth a look - his recommended strategy will result in quality language teaching and effectively sidelines the question of which language.
Posted by BAYGON, Saturday, 10 May 2008 5:03:53 PM
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Communicat,

I did not suggest that you are changing your position, just as I reject any suggestion that I have backed away from anything. I think what you really saw is how our initially broad, standard-bearing assertions have now taken on greater complexity and subtlety; such is always the case whenever people overcome the limitations of a culture's adversarial mentality (and yes, I was brought up in just such a system, if you hadn't noticed). So I think we have both moved on from flag waving towards more practical discussion about policy, pedagogy, etc.

I feel uncomfortable ending up as a defender of Rudd: he certainly has enough people to do that for him, and he doubtless can and will do enough in that cause himself! But I think you will find that his speeches in English are written for him too, just as premiers and many ministers employ people for that task (as did Churchill, despite some hagiographers' claims).

Besides, if Rudd seems louder advocating Mandarin and Japanese, that would reflect the different, more symbolic nature of Rudd's new job and its brutal preoccupation with matters of trade volume and other strategic mass. It would shock me to see him neglect the Indonesian part of the 94 report; it would also alienate a still influential residue of Australian Indonesia specialists. But your point does reignite my concern for how we could get a fair boost for Korean.

Therefore, I agree with what I believe to be the pivotal elements of your position in your comments “a waste of resources unless we do the job properly...the language rights of others” and that “we need an entirely new approach”. I back Mercurius' comparison with the Snowy Scheme (see after BAYGON's tip-off at http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=7329&page=0), but even that analogy may not fit given the less materially obvious and more intensively intellectual quality of the objective. So maybe you too think that the task is so vital and overdue that it should form the very core of an Australian education revolution?
Posted by mil-observer, Saturday, 10 May 2008 5:52:06 PM
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Mil Observer

You've only challenged my view that we should at least include if not emphasise the learning of Latin in our education structures.

I've given explanations why I think the learning of Latin beneficial. I've shown I accepted learning language, any language, has many benefits. I've indicated I believe learning Asian languages is not as beneficial to our intellectual development as learning Latin based or influenced languages.

I've never ridiculed nor criticised your positions at all. I have responded in kind to your personal taunts ...albiet with much more finese.

Why cannot you behave in a similar decent fashion?

From this discussion I see you've adopted simple positions on the education of languages. You desire to change the way we are and think learning Asian languages will achieve that outcome.

'There has for so long been a need for much more language-training investment to effect the strategically seismic cultural change critical for this country's future;...'

In this regard I have fundamental questions:
(1)Why do we need to strategically seismically change the culture of this country?

(2)Why do you think that particular change is critical to this country's future?

(3)Are you against learning about and developing ourselves in all areas, including our own histories?

I don't understand the basis you have for the following generalisation.

'...such is always the case whenever people overcome the limitations of a culture's adversarial mentality (and yes, I was brought up in just such a system, if you hadn't noticed).'

In light of my stated belief our culture has a history of being accepting and adaptable I find it incredible you can describe it only in terms of being adverserial, without justifiable explanation.

As regards upbringing, most of us are bought up in a family and not a system. It's the family that has most influence over our natures and attitudes. The family usually adopts the community culture. We in the west have shown to have developed to be not always adversarial. In light of our political and cultural structures, I think we are more concillitory.

Such a tone would enhance our discussion.
Posted by keith, Sunday, 11 May 2008 3:40:41 PM
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Language teaching certainly needs a major overhaul mil-observer but what Kevin Rudd appears to be advocating is that all students be taught Mandarin or, maybe, Japanese, without any thought for anything else or the way in which any language is going to be taught. (And he has allowed the rumour to spread that he writes his own speeches in Chinese - it was repeated to me by a Labor Senator only last weekend. When I questioned it he hesitated and then backed off.)
I'd agree with Cath Gunn, the woman who got International Literacy Year off the ground, "the most important thing a human being learns to do is communicate" (and she went on to say that communication is multi-faceted and immensely complex and that everyone should have access to multiple means of communicating with others). Until we start at that point we will get nowhere. We need to go beyond the idea that students in Australia should learn English and perhaps one other language - the latter based on about 150-200mins of instruction per week. The problem is that the curriculum is filled to the hilt with other things - some of little value but precious to those who teach them and thus unlikely to be removed without a fight.
Unless the demand for language learning comes from the community nothing will change. Demand for language learning certainly will not come while the emphasis is on languages that parents and the community see as irrelevant to the language needs and usage in the community.
Languages are living, growing, constantly changing ways of communicating - not a sterile page of words or characters to be learned for the classroom test in the morning.
Posted by Communicat, Sunday, 11 May 2008 5:12:47 PM
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keith

No, I challenge all your unsubstantiated statements; “sweeping generalizations” would be too generous a description. I also perceive there an imperious tone and tendency towards barely sublimated racism: I am sick of seeing the injustice, misery, waste, fear, hatred and further ignorance such views spawn. Your language throughout also conveyed to my mind conspicuous snobbery and condescension. Together, these appear to be personality traits you seem to enjoy expressing in order to reassure yourself with a sense of superiority; provoking outraged opposition like mine would be compatible with such psychopathological self-reassurance and assertion of identity.

I challenge, and reply to your questions, out of respect for the audience, not for your peculiar psyche, because your contributions show little beyond high self regard and implicit disrespect for those you apparently consider your racio-cultural and social inferiors:

“(1)Why do we need to strategically seismically [sic] change the culture of this country?”
Survival: inherited western supremacism weakens too many Australian-born people with attitudes of contempt, paranoia and indifference about our regional neighbors.

“(2)Why do you think that particular change is critical to this country's future?”
Such inward, inhibited attitudes have very dangerous potential to cause ignorance, weakness, isolation, and enmity at worst, or at best the stigma of cynically motivated commercial opportunism (like your revealingly flippant: “Yes sure learn Asian languages for commercial benefit”).

“(3)Are you against learning about and developing ourselves in all areas, including our own histories?”
Of course not. Indeed, learning about one's true geographical, historical and cultural place in our region – and in our actual ability to engage via regional languages – should be fundamental parts of healthy development and mature self-knowledge.

In misrepresenting my “adversarialism” comment, you ignore its context of separate debate with Communicat.
Posted by mil-observer, Sunday, 11 May 2008 6:50:07 PM
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Once again you've shown an inability to rise above hate and conflict.

Right from the outset you've shown an inability to accept ideas and facts that are alien to your world view. In fact all you've ever really done is heap personal criticism constantly. You've never presented any evidence or logical argument that my views are not valid. You simply try to ridicule the messenger.

You and your short-sighted manner are not worth any sort of dialogue. Thank goodness your attitudes are sure to alienate those you wish to convert.

'Survival: inherited western supremacism weakens too many Australian-born people with attitudes of contempt, paranoia and indifference about our regional neighbors'

Sadly laughable assertion.
Of course no other culture thinks itself supreme either ... to you that is.

'Such inward, inhibited attitudes have very dangerous potential to cause ignorance, weakness, isolation, and enmity at worst, or at best the stigma of cynically motivated commercial opportunism (like your revealingly flippant: “Yes sure learn Asian languages for commercial benefit”).'

Sadly laughable assertions.
The negativity of your world view seems Eurocentic it doesn't seem to extend to other languages and cultures.

'Of course not. Indeed, learning about one's true geographical, historical and cultural place in our region – and in our actual ability to engage via regional languages – should be fundamental parts of healthy development and mature self-knowledge.'

Ignorant and limiting tunnel vision at best. You seem to wish to deny the learning of our much longer western lineages.

With such a display of attitudes one can only conclude you sir are a racist. And blatantly so. Yet you stupidly tried to assign such a dispicable trait to me.

Grovel about in your own disgrace ... for as you admit, you are merely barbarian ... intellectually and culturally.
Posted by keith, Monday, 12 May 2008 7:58:37 AM
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I wanted to make your comment earlier, Communicat: some of the curriculum IS of little benefit.

But I think you underestimate the potential community demand for such curricular strategies. Community opposition to cause stalling or other negative effect, I have seen certainly. That is why I applaud Lo Bianco's strategic vision about making the most of our migrant population, where there is demonstrable community demand.

One Rudd-ish (sorry Communicat!) approach would be to inventorize constituencies' for their particular LOTE assets (like with homeless shelters), then channel the variously willing and able educators and other leaders into streamlined teaching and accreditation programs for expansion in the school system. Several obvious challenges arise there, but they are not insurmountable, and should also be seen as great opportunities:

Ghettoization: where ethnic and religious identities cluster together from our natural tendency to avoid alienation, and seek protection, in numbers. My children attend a primary school with a large proportion of ethnic Chinese, but Chinese families schooling their kids in Mandarin do so outside via private classes and individual tuition. Our smaller minorities of Greek and Arab families do likewise. This situation is clearly inefficient, giving rise to some uncertainty in teaching, and wasting good human resources: an appalling cost to individual families, communities and the nation.

Isolation: Indigenous, Jewish and smaller minority languages face extra challenges for incorporation and support in such a nation-building scheme.

- The remoteness of several surviving indigenous languages would make it harder to incorporate with settler communities, so there would be a need to build on previous efforts there, while expanding to include non-indigenous students where possible.

- Jewish communities present a longer-term phenomenon of ghettoization, if only to the point of “isolation” in this linguistic sense. But I think my Goy niece in E. St Kilda should get to study Modern Hebrew with her neighbors. Our separately established Jewish schools would compel more institutional cross-fertilization.

- “Smaller” languages e.g., Gaelic, Estonian, Tetun, Cymry, Hmong can be incorporated similarly, but for a more specialized avenue of choice at higher levels (maybe no sooner than Year 11/12).
Posted by mil-observer, Monday, 12 May 2008 10:52:22 AM
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Bonjour à tous !

On 7th of May Romany mentionned that "the french have no word for wife"... what has happened to "épouse" ? (époux is the masculin)

Baygon, thank you for giving me a few chuckles.

Pelican, i get a strong feeling that you would appreciate Esperanto if only you looked, even briefly, at it (not to replace national languages and dialects, but to protect them and as a first step inintercommunication).

Communicat, Saturday 10th, you wrote :

"Unfortunately those four languages are not enough even if we never did business outside 'the Asian region'.
It's a waste of resources unless we do the job properly and, given the other demands on the curriculum and the language rights of others, we are going to go on wasting resources. We need a new an entirely new approach to language learning and teaching."

YES, YES, YES ! Such as exploring the advantages of using a simple, quickly learned, AUXILIARY language as a "weightless global universal dictionary" to facilitate first encounters which can then lead to understanding and study of chosen languages.

55:53 PM A bientôt j'espère. Henriette.
Posted by Henriette, Saturday, 31 May 2008 9:50:24 PM
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