Katie0

Thank you for so succinctly demonstrating the many contradictions in the bible.

So if Passage X is neutralised by Passage Y - then what is the point?

For centuries 1 Corinthians 11:3-10 has been deliberately used to control the manner of dress of women and their 'place' in the community.

People like Boaz use it all the time. He has repeatedly said that men answer to god and their wives (no place for single women) answer to their husband.

And that's just the bible, the Koran is no better (in fact worse) and Jewish men thank god for not being created female.

Philosophy does it a whole lot better - without the supernatural element.

In fact moderate christians manage to take the bible not as literal but as a source of wisdom. To take everything in the bible as truth requires a mental duplicity that is dishonest for both the reader and the rest of us who do not believe.

Rhian put it very succinctly here: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=7210&page=0#110844

It is when people try to force their beliefs on others that religion becomes a problem. You are an apologist for Boaz, that is a shame because you appear quite intelligent – more than Boaz. Yet, if he was your husband you would have to answer to him, would you not?

Back to the headscarf, I have already stated that it is a religious symbol, like the yarmulke. Yes, to wear it in a secular country where it is not law, is indeed making a statement. I am glad I am here and not in an Islamist country, but that doesn’t mean I don’t have issues with religion in general. Islam illustrates the extremes that religion can go to, it is a mirror of what Christianity used to be. And if people like Boaz had their way, would be again.

I conclude with the following quote, it applies to any fundamentalist irrespective of religion.

A fundamentalist is someone who hates sin more than he loves virtue.
John H. Schaar

Hi Fractelle

Just a point of clarification about the Bible and the Koran and Islam being “in fact worse”. I would argue that Koran has historically been better than the Bible for women’s rights. It has the first recorded statement that a woman has the right to own to own property in her own name, not her husband or father as was the case in the West until the Women’s property ACT of 1880. That’s over 1,000 years before western women. It also gives women inheritance rights and divorce rights, (including to divorce a man for not satisfying her in bed), with property settlement rights.

Like most religions it’s all in the cultural interpretation and selective application. I would have thought that JC saying, (and I paraphrase here), treat other people as you yourself would be treated would put and end to all the sexist crap for Christians – but as you can see even from this forum - through cultural interpretation and selective application this is not case.

Billy C

I am not well versed enough in the Quran to know whether it has a more enlightened view of women than does the NT. If it does it is certainly suffering from the same misinterpretation that afflicts the bible. And I have to admit I find the idea of the hijab and burqa very worrisome. As a woman, I am proud to be who I am and the idea of shrouding myself simply because of male problems and issues is offensive.

As for the 'do unto others...' - clearly that has not resulted in fair and equal treatment for women or gays or any one else who is regarded as N.Q.R. Also the golden rule of treating others as you would prefer to be treated yourself is a common one throughout many cultures and cited well before Jesus' time.

We still have a long way to go.

Hello DJS, Thank you for posting. I don’t know exactly how you feel reading threads like this, but I imagine it’s unpleasant. So, I really admire your decision to participate.

Despite the concerns expressed on this thread about head-gear, and despite even greater concerns routinely expressed about Islamic extremism, I think everyone knows we must accept Muslims in this society. This society is designed to accept. That’s one of its main virtues. One of its main strengths, and one of its main dangers.

Are you prepared to discuss the scarf issue further? For example, you say a large number of Australian Muslim women choose to wear a scarf. So, do you know some who don’t choose, but who must wear it? How do they feel about this, do you know? What would the consequence be if they decided not to wear it? How do you feel about their lack of choice?

I'm also interested to know what you think about the discussion of Islamic scriptures. For example, do you think they have been misunderstood?

I hope you will feel free to respond, or not to respond, as you prefer.

Pax,

Hi Fractelle

I find the idea of women being forced to wear anything, including the hijib and burqa worrisome & something that is fundamentally unjust. But many Islamic women are not “forced” and the wearing of the burqua culturally relative, (the idea of wearing the burqua would be just weird to a say a Bangladeshi Islamic woman as to an Australian Christian woman.

In the Victorian era Indian women wearing sari’s seeing British colonial women wearing heavy dresses – covered from neck to wrist to ankle – would have perhaps thought this style of dress to be bazaar and forced, (as it was in England at this time when a woman not covered in this way in public could be arrested for indecency).

I have also read Islamic women talking about how freeing wearing the buqua can be – not to be judged on how fat or thin you are, not to have men staring at your breasts in the street etc. There have also been links made between the incredibly low incidences of eating disorders and the wearing of the Buqua in these cultures. Oh and wearing the burqua has been associated with the development of the idea of “romantic love” where a man & a woman fall in love – and for the man it is not just for the woman’s looks but her mind. It is also worth remembering that the idea of “romantic love” in the west came from this Arabic tradition and spread through Morocco to Spain and to Europe around the 16-17 centuries, ( at time in west where marriages were arranged between families along class lines, in fact marriages were seen as only necessary to secure inheritance rights for children produced by these unions i.e. legitimate – for centuries the poor did not marry as there was nothing to inherit)

I agree we have a long way to go.

WOWWWWWW...

BILLY C you first.. the Bible NEVER EVER NOT EVEN HINTS... that you can discipline your (property owning wife) with VIOLENCE..!

The Koran.. DOES! read it yourself Surah 4:34. and don't believe the '(lightly) in brackets it's NOT in the Arabic.

FRACTELLE.. ..In terms of the authority structure of the family.. Christ the head, then the man, then the woman. But in terms of access to God... they are equal.

DJS... (GINX are you reading?) you have shown the very problem of the Hijab..which is what I've said all along. It symbolizes "Islam"
Now.. you say "I don't care what you think" ok.. I should come to Lakemba mosque with a BIG cross boldly printed on the front and back of my clothes.. no offense? "I don't care what you think"... is a pretty poor attitude.

If you want to 'not care what we think'...then be alerted to the fact that I "think" that it symbolizes:

-Child sexual abuse legitimized by Surah 65:4
-Sexual abuse of captive slaves in Surah 23:5-6
-A man (Mohammad)who mutilated living prisoners, hacking off their hands and feet after poking their eyes out with hot rods...and denying them water to increase their suffering as they died.
Bukhari Volume 1, Book 4, Number 234:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/004.sbt.html#001.004.234
"...If you love Allah, then follow me (Muhammad)..." (Sura 3:31).

err.. really? then we should mutilate prisoners ?

-Domestic violence against naughty wives. (4:34)

-A man who claimed unlimited sexual privilege for himSELF but denied it to the 'ordinary believers' (surah 33:50)

-CURSING of Christians and Jews (Quran 9:30) and repeated cursing of us in hadith Bukhari Volume 4, Book 56, Number 660:

-Declaration of war against non believers (such as Ginx, Fractelle, Vanilla, Katie0 and myself) (Surah 9:29)

So..if you wish those things to be advertized all around our parks etc..then by all means wear your hijab.
If you want to debate those specific issues.. go for it. I can support each one with context, Islamic scholarship and history. (really!)