Daggett, if John Howard had cancelled the elections and had declared martial law,
Australia would not have a democracy, period. Either you understand that or
you don’t. Forget the strawman arguments. I can’t remember you mentioning
mortgage foreclosures, perhaps I never bothered to go back to the thread.

Tony, your figures sound quite plausible, by some of the stats that I have seen.
One was that we have around 8 million taxpayers and the same amount of recipients
of welfare. Only something like 65% of the population works and some of those
part time.

We have a whole lot of people on invalid pensions, carers, widows, old age pensioners, you name it, they are on pensions. We spend over 90 billion on them.
Mind you, lots of those on invalid pensions will still do cash jobs, but that is
another story :)

At one of the local banks they employ something like 8 women. Only one is full
time, she is the junior. The rest are married women whose husbands do pretty
well, so they only want to work 2-3 days a week at most. They would also be
classified as “low paid”, according to you.

I had a look in Saturday’s paper to have a look what jobs were offered. Just a small
fraction of them.

Roof tilers - 350$ a day
Concreters – 32$ an hour
Truckies - 25$ an hour
Sparkies – 40$ an hour
Brickies labourers – 180$ a day
Brickies - 320$ a day
Grader operators - 32$ an hour
Coles dist centre unskilled staff – minimum 22.50 an hour plus various bonuses
Cleaners - 20$ an hour.

Clearly there are heaps of jobs out there for good money, for those who get off their
butts and want to work.

I once employed a 17 year old fresh from school, in the early 90s. Whilst her friends
bought cds, make up, designer clothes etc, she lived at home, saved her pennies and
when she had 12’000$ together, she bought Westpac shares for 3$ each. Have
a look what they are worth now

Yabby

Your reasonable response was appreciated.

However, my surveys are physically person-to-person and average 25 minutes per participant. My survey interview training and experience goes back to the mid 1970s, whereupon I consistently turned Commonwealth stats on its head; and later, commercial market research.

Secondly, I am not trying to persuade anyone; only provide info and context for those who want to know more.

The vast majority of workers on part-time wages want full time, and a return to sick leave and paid holidays. The bored mums element don't even measure on the statistical scale. Rather they are mums who sacrifice parenting time to make ends meet. They do not say say this out of respect for their spouse's pride. Believe me, this is something I have researched deeply since 1985.

And ignore advertised wages of contractors. Ask the individuals what they actually take home after overheads. I associate with a lot of tradies and none of them take home anything like what you quote.

But even here, these are the trained tradesmen. The vast majority of workers out there cannot afford to upgrade skills; the courses are too expensive on a small family budget, and the TAFEs are too distant from home.

Finally, advertised wages are rarely what is paid. And then there is the tourist and hospitality industry wherein slavery is practised. Yes, I am talking working human beings 7 hour days without pay, except a nominal amount for overtime, and the payment of visas and airfares. Only they don't call this slavery, but internship. The Industrial Relations Inspectors would not tell me the real figures, but admitted this is rife. The Minister's advisor would not deny it either.

But by all means, check this out for yourself.

Tony,

Sorry to have to differ, but whilst your own posts, including your most recent, were both reasonable and informative, the same cannot be said of Yabby's.

Yabby simply ignores arguments and evidence which don't support his world view and proceeds to restate the same tired irrelevant points which he has already put time and time again before, but this time in a slightly altered guise.

Yabby, the fact that there is an (ecologically unsustainable) economic boom of sorts in Western Australia is not under dispute. What I do dispute is your contention that Australia can ever have a significant manufacturing sector in a globalised world economy with competition from so many slave-wage economies. You have yet to quantify exactly how what proportion of Australia's export income is comprised of manufactured items. The fact that none of the job advertisements you cited relate in any obvious way to the manufacturing sector would seem to further reinforce the point I have been making.

---

Yabby wrote, "I can’t remember you mentioning mortgage foreclosures, perhaps I never bothered to go back to the thread."

Silly me!

Here I was thinking that Yabby had run away from the discussion because he had made a complete ass of himself (http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=6697&page=0#103825), when, in fact as I now have learnt after making 59 posts (or rather, three posts over and over again), he had simply LOST INTEREST.

Well, please Yabby, don't, on my account, feel any obligation to post 52 more times to this forum. Please don't hang around this discussion for one moment longer than it holds any interest for you.

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Yabby wrote "I once employed a 17 year old fresh from school, ..."

I heard that one before, too (http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=6697#102298). Just as well she didn't invest her $13,000 in sub-prime mortagages.

Tell me, Yabby, what do you see as the essential difference between investing on the stock market and gambling?

Tony, yes tax has to be deducted etc, but everyone pays that.
There is still good money available for those wanting to work.
Perhaps rates are higher in WA, then they are in the East.

As to people being unable to get to a TAFE centre or other
place to learn, they will if they want to. They can get to
the footy or similar, if they want to. All this stuff is
about attitude, some want to help themselves and move ahead,
others prefer to just complain.

I used to employ nearly exclusively women and there were
lots of reasons why they came to work. Single ones wanted
full time work, those married with a family, were far more
keen to create a balance between work, family etc, which
included flexible hours to suit. 2-3 days was more then
emough, most of the time. They also came to work for the social
side of things. Women just happen to enjoy telling other women
how they feel and work is a great place to do it, if everyone
gets along. So money was not the big driving factor.

IMHO the days of everyone going back to full time work, with
holidays and sick leave etc, are over. That is fine for Govt
or some large companies in some situations, that is about it.
Add 9% super, insurance, payroll tax etc, and in business you cannot
afford to have people who are not fully occupied, its too competitive
these days. Demand for labour varies and the best solution is
flexibility of labour, to suit demand. Productivity matters
these days.

Daggett, I just listed a few common straight forward jobs. If
I started listing the demands from the export sector, the list
would have gone off the page.

Yabby wrote: "There is still good money available for those wanting to work."

I was shocked to learn, recently, from a friend who was an experienced secretary that she was earning the princely sum of $15 per hour in Brisbane. No doubt, Yabby would tell her to spend her nights at TAFE retraining as concreter and move to Western Australia. And, if she were not to immediately act upon his advice, Yabby's retort would no doubt be:

"... All this stuff is about attitude, some want to help themselves and move ahead, others prefer to just complain."

---

Yabby wrote: "Daggett, I just listed a few common straight forward jobs. If I started listing the demands from the export sector, the list would have gone off the page."

As I said, I am still waiting for evidence that manufacturing exports amount to a significant part of the Australian economy. All you have done is shown that there are jobs available in parts of the Australia due to the boom in both mining and housing development, which even a fool should be able to see is unsustainable.

It's definitely worth getting a copy of the most recent edition of Dissent Magazine (RRP= $7.70 Anunal subscription = $22.00 http://www.dissent.com.au PO Box 26, Deakin West ACT 2600) just for John M. Legge's excellent review of Naomi Klein's excellent "The Shock Doctrine" (RRP $32.95). It covers the subject of protectionism. John Legge writes:

"With the exception of Britain every developed country in the world (and the once-developed countries of South America) built its domestic manufacturing industries behind a tariff barrier. The effect was generally a slight increase in domestic prices accompanied by a very large increase in well-paid jobs in the manufacturing industry: the bargain was and still is well-understood and in spite of remorseless rhetoric of free trade economists, the majority of the population in every developed country believes in moderate tariffs and the preservation of good jobs. ..."