Of course, it is to be expected that Yabby would have us believe that consumer choice within a market economy is the same as democracy. However, if we don't accept that, my point still stands. The Australian public were never asked if they wanted to see their manufacturing sector sacrificed in a globalised race to the bottom. If given the choice once again, I believe they would ask for the restoration of tariff walls for reasons given above.

The argument that superior technical skills of workers in First World countries can indefinitely safeguard their jobs against competition from slave-wage economies, as Yabby would have us believe could be done, was comprehensive demolished by Geoff Davies in Economia (2004). On page 150 the example of the manufacture of the Boeing 737 being relocated from the US to China is given:

"Boeing machinists and engineers did not need higher technological skill; they were already acknowledged to be the most advanced workforce in the global industry. And tens of thousands of them were losing their jobs, many of them permanently."

Yabby has still failed to quantify the actual amount earned and the number of workers employed in the niche manufacturing sectors. As I said before, in all likelihood, they would count for little in the overall scheme of things. Should any of these niche manufacturing sectors grow to a point where they would earn a significant amount of foreign exchange, then in all likelihood, their workers would suffer the same fate as Boeing's workers.

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Tony Ryan, I appreciate your concern, but please be assured that I am not attempting to convince a brick wall. I just happen to think it is worth some minimal effort to show others where that brick wall is wrong.

Whilst I have been burnt by encounters with trolls in the past, I don't expect the same will happen again very easily. As a warning to others of how just one troll can destroy what would otherwise be an informative and useful discussion, I urge them to look at the forum discussion at http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=6697#103811&page=0

I may be very much on my own here, but to me the value of this and any other discussion is entirely in the action that follows.

Most certainly, I have found that most contributions are positive, but only one in ten is informative; which is why I am here.

However, in recent years, a virulent form of elitism has emerged in Australia, typified by the loud presumption of Yabby and his ilk that other Aussies have money to invest. My organisation's surveys show that 68% of Aussies have incomes below $29,000. There is nothing democratic about this systemic denial of access to investment or any other kind of wealth.

As has been well reported, one family in three has cut back on food to pay for fuel to get to work. One in five survive on less than $15,000.Currently, if my surveys are accurate, 54% of Australians cannot afford adequate nutrition, medical or dental care; and are dying prematurely in slow motion.

A single organisation exists to address this issue; the Tariff Restoration Bloc (TRB), which represents small political parties, independent candidates and their supporters, the Small Business Forum, and a variety of reform-oriented publications and their readers.

Unless I am missing some more hidden theatre of action on the Australian political landscape, this is the only entity that pursues the single objective of restoring tariffs. It is reasonable, therefore, to contend that if the TRB fails to achieve its goal, we can say goodbye forever to egalitarian and democratic Australia.

So perhaps I can be forgiven for viewing forum participants in terms of their likely future contributions for and against a just and prosperous Australian nation.

If there is a more real world perspective I would like to be made aware of it.

Daggett, you have yet to point out why consumers voting with their wallets every
day, is not highly democratic. In fact it is far more democratic, then being
given a vote every few years, with lots of issues bundled into one single vote.

Anyone is free to buy Australian every single day, if they wish.

I remind you that Boeing is still made in the USA. Their main competition
is not China at all, but Europe.

I certainly have not done a comprehensive and detailed analysis for you, firstly
about the definition of niche, secondly how huge it is (most of manufacturing)

That is not my job, unless somebody pays for it.

What I do assume is that most posters on OLO have a little bit of common sense.
In your case, I am clearly expecting too much.

Kim Carr's proposals are yet another protection racket disguised as an industry policy.

The reviews of the automobile and TCF industries have wrongly bypassed the Productivity Commission and instead employed known protectionists that will likely recommend further protection, in the form of tariffs and subsidies, for both industries.

Industry protection is costly to both consumers and the broader economy. Not only does protection artificially inflate the cost of goods and increase the general level of taxation, it also encourages bad management, poor working practices and a general climate of complacency, while diverting labour and capital from efficient industries. The fact that all of the available workers recently retrenched from Mitsubishi were quickly redeployed to other more productive jobs is evidence of my last point.

If Carr truly wants to increase the level of innovation and boost productivity, he should remove barriers to import competition not increase them.

Presumably if John Howard had cancelled the 2007 elections and had declared martial law, Australia would still be a democracy according to Yabby's logic, just as long as Australians were still free to choose whether or not to buy Australian made products.

Yabby wrote: "I certainly have not done a comprehensive and detailed analysis for you, firstly about the definition of niche, secondly how huge it is (most of manufacturing)."

"That is not my job, unless somebody pays for it."

I wasn't asking for a comprehensive and detailed analysis. I was just asking for you to provide meaningful figures that would have allowed me to put the occasional Australian manufacturing success story in its proper overall context.

If you choose not to substantiate your claims, it's your funeral and not mine.

In regard to China and Boeing, the point remains that Boeing has offshored a lot of its work to China where wages are lower and many Boeing employees lost their jobs as a result. It's clear from the is example that even being highly skilled is no guarantee that your job won't be lost to workers who are paid less.

TONY RYAN.. you said 2 important things (among others)

1/ <<we export and import to make elites rich, not because this is intrinsically required in terms of text book economics.>>

2/ <<We could be self sustaining.>>

The downside also, of us being self sustaining, (which is a laudable ideal) would be our consequent possible vulnerability to military threat.

Unfortunately, all alliances come at a cost- Usually economic, and sometimes territorial.
One only need to read the books of Kings in the old testament to see what it cost the various kings who were under threat..and then, history in general also testifies to this.

AUSTRALIA CAN ONLY SURVIVE BY NICHE MANUFACTURING... says Yabby and supported by Dagget.

NO NO NO!.. how we wish.... sorry, as someone on China related thread said... they have 100s of dedicated engineers coming up with new, innovative and more producable things than we can ever hope to achieve..simply by weight of numbers.

Such a mantra might be like a soothing balm to our weary hearts, but the finely tuned 'mind' knows different.

Unfortunately, what we are in reality witnessing, in the big historical picture view, is nothing less than the actual decay of Western Dominance and Economic well being, not to mention power. This will have only ONE predictable result, along with a few sub plots.

CHINA will treat us as we treated them when we made megabucks from their squalor and opium addiction. (no surprise there)

INDIA will compete with China for that position, and will remember that during the British Colonial times, ALL manufacturing was concentrated in the hands of British interests, and nothing of note was shared with Indians. (if you can believe Mahatma Ghandi)

END GAME.
What will become of us? Well.. Unions will kick and scream while factory after factory closes, and jobs go overseas, gradually (as todays headlines state) Food and shelter(homes) are becoming much less affordable. Eventually.. we will find ourselves humbled, poor and dependant.. or.. there will be WAR.