Centra, perhaps it is the language barrier, but i've had trouble understanding your posts, which is why haven't addressed them. i still have trouble understanding, but i'll make a quick comment on your posts and romany's posts.

you both seem to be suggesting that there is a lot of hypocrisy and dishonesty in western coverage of tibet. i wholeheartedly agree. i have written in a number of posts that i don't buy the tibetan paradise line. and there is plenty of nasty nationalist behavior to point to from the "good" countries. i am confused by your reference to zimbabwe and iran and so on, but i don't think it matters. we could take it issue by issue, and country by country, and i am guessing that we would agree more often than not.

but i don't see how any of this dents criticisms of china's authoritarian behavior in tibet, or of Lo's apologist post

BOAZ_David, Bushbasher,
>>Some gallant and brave Chinese TRIED to 'choose' and at Tien An Min Square they were squashed by tanks and their heads blown off with ak47s. <<

Although there are lots of exaggerated biased report, but Chinese gov DID make a diaster mistake. Of course Chinese students and civilian protestors should take serious responsibilities too. It is a diaster, but avoided the worst case which China was in complete turmoil. China did have election system, of course far from perfect. CCP(Chinese Communist Party) has millions of member, also have some different sect. One reason of the diaster is that CCP did not quickly form a solution accepted by different sect and wasted the opportunities to bring quick and peaceful solution. (Maybe it was some sort of democracy.)

>>When did the Chinese CHOOSE their own system? it came out of the barrels of many GUNS.<<

Do you know French revolution, American Independent War, Israel independent from British...all came from GUNS.

There are lots of system for reference in China's detailed recorded 5000 years history. Of course, there are modern western systems for reference.

But China did get their own system. Right now, China is making progress peacefully and smoothly. 20 years past since 1989, millions of people (most of them are professionals not politians) had broad life experence in west countries and took indepth thinking.

Surprized everyone, IT IS Tian An Men PROTESTORS THEMSELVES who found western system is unfit for China. Some Western proposal simply are "poison bill". While some western people still in day dream to change China into a so-called ... country.

>>EVERYthing you have said so far is to justify cruelty, invasion and cultural genocide by CHINESE against Tibetans.<<

Listen what exiled DaLai LaMa said. He said again and again that he DOES NOT seek Tibet to be an independent country. Why many people in west so arrogant that they should be the representatives of Tibetans and seek Tibet to be an independent country. Tibet got his perfect right status. Tibet is an autonomous province in China. Tibet affair is China's Internal affair. It is different from international affair.

DaLai LaMa selection system was set up by China's central govt hundreds of years ago, no Tibetan wants to change the selection systems in past hundreds of years. Could you just pick up ONE Tibetan from millions of Tibetans all over the world, who opposes this system? It is part of their religion. So why force them change their culture, culture protector?

I have to say there is "culture collision" between Tibetan and other culture including mainstream Chinese culture and west culture etc, especially, recently there is dramatic improvement in transport system from Tibet to other area in the world.

>>Is that a joke ? When did the Chinese CHOOSE their own system?<<
>>the Opium wars.. the coastal trading centres which were backed up by gun boats?<<

In China's 5000 years history, usually Chinese choose their system by themselves. Of course, if they want to choose their own system, will only is not enough; power is essential, otherwise, opium trade will be legal.

It is unavoidable and maybe quite reasonable that there will be friction when a new power is rising. China survived 5000 years natural and social challenge. Current challenge really means nothing. Unfortunately, Tibetans are not beneficiary of this power struggle.

centra, i won't insert myself into your fight with boaz over the chinese government. i will make a few more remarks about tibet.

1) it is silly to say that tibet is "china's internal affair". you are simply begging the question.

2) it is true that the dalai lama is not calling for tibet's independence. that is realpolitik. it does not change the moral issues.

3) you claim that "china's central government hundreds of years ago" set up the dalai lama selection system. you're being tricky, and you know it. if you want to engage in debating trickery, that's fine. i just won't continue to engage with you. please tell the truth.

4) if china is so respectful of tibetan buddhist tradition, perhaps you would like to discuss Gedhun Choekyi Nyima.

you describe tibet as an "autonomous province". the reality is that there is nothing autonomous about it. you know this. i am sorry that your government receives much unfair criticism. but that is a poor excuse for defending immoral acts by your government

Bushbasher >>i am sorry that your government receives much unfair criticism<<
>>perhaps it is the language barrier, but i've had trouble understanding your posts<<

Very interesting, sometimes it is not so obvious to judge a person. Actually, Chinese govt is not my govt, but I do have close relation with China and spent a couple of years in China. I know that a lot of Chinese are quite open mind in debate on their website.

Handle of a dozen computer language plus three natural language is really not a easy job for me, but I did learn something from them. Every language has its own grammar/syntax, usually they function well if they are still being used, so does the social society.

I also learned a lot from my ten years working experience on five different industries in different countries. Even the respectable non profit professional organization such as IEEE can be nasty when they discuss the world technical standards such as 3G telecommunication standards. What could be happen on the social standards dispute?

Gday Aussie,
This is today's real world. Let's pray for the world peace.

sorry, centra! that was presumptuous of me to assume you were a chinese national.
(ps: i'm not aussie).

i'll leave it at that. i think my position is clear. as i suggested earlier, i think we would agree more than we disagree.