Whitty, you brought me up short with your last comment. I did ignore HRS for the longest time but when suddenly a new lot of posters joined the forum and he started trotting out things that had been painfully, time-wastingly and exhaustively disproved in the past I kinda got sucked in again.

However your last para. suddenly hit me between the eyes. You're right. His perceived intractability could indeed be attributable to the cause/s you mention. I, for one, am going back to ignoring him again.

Seeker

“We reserve the right to be enlightened by irrefutably sexy logic of Vanilla and her “ilk”; NOT yours.

So now even our logic has to be “sexy”! This is another example of an issue that still rankles strongly with a lot of feminists. Despite being told repeatedly by the likes of Antiseptic that feminists have had their day and that the disadvantages we suffer in Western societies are trivial, many of us are constantly living out this struggle to be taken seriously, irrespective of how sexy our image, or now it seems our words! It’s a struggle most men do not understand because they don’t live it. Some here like Whitty have come close and have made some perceptive observations but I can tell that even the most reasonable critics of feminism don’t really get this.

Antiseptic

“I suspect 'twere ever thus, with women in tribal societies sitting around the fire sharing the latest gossip about the inadequacies of the men whilst the men are out risking life and limb to bring home the bacon. In short, it's a product of too much free time and too little obligation for self-support or other productive activity.”

Sitting around and discussing problems (and surprise surprise they don't all involve men!) is an important prerequisite to finding solutions. Why is it Antiseptic that when women do this it is referred to as “gossip”? What is it called when men do the same thing? Of course, they’re solving the world’s problems! Funny, but the times I’ve listened in to an all-male discussion, it invariably doesn't move much beyond football, booze and sex. There has to be a name for this world-changing conversation. “Gossip” probably fits it pretty well, but of course men don’t gossip!

Talking of sitting around discussing the issues, I would suggest that it’s men who put in more hours doing this on this particular forum than women. Not that I see anything wrong with that. But then I didn’t make the observation that women have “too much free time” on their hands.

Whitty,
You're quite right, and well done for pointing it out. I will absolutely take your advice.

Seeker,
I do appreciate your apology. You are the only person on OLO who has really hurt me, when you suggested that I thought my own father and grandfather were, in your words, "rapists and abusers". It actually made me cry, one because obviously I love them (and one's dead) and the thought that anyone could think that of them is deeply distressing, and two because I just find the line that feminists hate men deeply dumb and boring. When I asked you to direct attacks at me rather than me old man, you insisted that I "painted that family portrait". You were wrong, on every count. You've nothing else to apologise to me for, bar that, so for that I accept your apology. I'm sorry to rehash it, but I thank you for letting me clear the air.

On the other hand, I'm totally cool with "sexy logic." Good logic is sexy — effortless and smooth. I think Stephen Fry does the sexiest logic and he's a poof. I'm not saying I can do it, but I aspire to it.

Antiseptic,
"...women in tribal societies sitting around the fire sharing the latest gossip about the inadequacies of the men whilst the men are out risking life and limb to bring home the bacon."
And I suspect your thinking shall remain ever thus, "thus" being intellectually less challenging and more flattering to yourself than reality. There is so much to wonder at in the world, it astounds me when people want to throw dust clothes of cliche over all the fun bits.

Feminism, to me, is just part of a natural and ongoing struggle to create a culture in which women and men are as free as they possibly can be to experience all that existence has to offer. It's a continuous process of discarding archaic and artificial gender-based limitations on our skills and abilities and creativity. The freer we are, the more we can contribute to the communal pot.

Turnrightthenleft,
You have continuously called me a misogynist, even though you can’t find any evidence that I am a misogynist. Actual facts don’t seem very important to you, and I can understand why you like feminism.

Robert and Whitty,
Of course the picture shows the complete extent of “men’s violence against women” in our society, but how many women have been killed, and then hidden in the boot of a car, with their arm and leg hanging out of the boot?

I don't think a single one, but perhaps I wouldn't know, being a misogynist and being insane and all that.

Antiseptic, you showed why I've gone to such pains to express these sentiments here. It's clear you haven't taken any notice of what I've been saying.

Antiseptic: "It is a blatant attempt to generalise and dilute a specific set of criticisms in order to create the impression that the critic is nothing but a bigot. It's intellectually dishonest and does you no credit."

No.

On frequent recent posts, I specifically went to pains to say I don't consider criticism of feminism unreasonable, and that isn't misogyny at all. I've concurred that there are a great many things about feminism that should be criticised.

I'm not generalising at all, quite the contrary.

You just did though.

I've been arguing that dismissing the views of every person who has been identified as having some feminist beliefs is irrational.

I'm happy to retract my misogynist call, if he'd admit that not everyone who identifies as feminist is evil or that defending women from stoning would be a worthwhile pursuit - even if some categorise this as feminism.

But he can't do that even though I think reasonable people can see this quite clearly. When asked if he could vote for a woman, he evaded the question.

Whitty makes a good point in that his inability to grasp these things is an indicator he isn't rational.

Though seeing Antiseptic, jumping to the conclusion that HRS isn't a misogynist, when it's clear he isn't a mere critic of feminism is worrying. I've been trying to highlight that HRS's position is a clear indicator he's a misogynist. I've done it not just for the sake of reasonable feminists, but reasonable critics of feminism too.

Seeker - my excuse is that I don't think the best thing for anyone is to be left to stew in a world where all women are like vampires when there are others that might listen to their hate.
But perhaps you're right in that given time he'll recover, and ultimately I can't be sure of his circumstances, so I'll endeavour to let it be provided others don't make Antiseptic's mistake.

"I specifically went to pains to say I don't consider criticism of feminism unreasonable, and that isn't misogyny at all. I've concurred that there are a great many things about feminism that should be criticised.

I'm not generalising at all, quite the contrary.

You just did though.

I've been arguing that dismissing the views of every person who has been identified as having some feminist beliefs is irrational.

if he'd admit that not everyone who identifies as feminist is evil"
Posted by TurnRightThenLeft,

Now we are getting somewhere. I agree with TRTL that there is much about feminism that should be criticised.

No I do not beleive that anyone who identifies as feminist is evil, but I reserve my judgement until proven otherwise.

I read a statement which said that some women may use feminist ideals to score points against men. Which makes some sense.

"Feminism, to me, is just part of a natural and ongoing struggle to create a culture in which women and men are as free as they possibly can be to experience all that existence has to offer. It's a continuous process of discarding archaic and artificial gender-based limitations on our skills and abilities and creativity. The freer we are, the more we can contribute to the communal pot."
Posted by Vanilla,

Thats why it is important for men to be included in the debate, even when they say things that rub you the wrong way.