Thanks, JPW2040 to the link for Westboro Baptist Church news release of Thursday January 31 2008.
An interesting example of the gentle touch which Christianity so frequently applies to human affairs. Not always, mind you, but definitely frequently.

*He needs to explain why, in the absence of God, altruism and empathy are “good”.*

Actually all this stuff has kind of been done to death in the fields
of evolutionary psychology, primatology, neuroscience etc.

People like Frans de Waal have written a fair bit about the basics
of morality being grounded in biology, which we can observe by
studying other primates.

Goodthief, as a member of a social species, one of your genetic
attributes would be that you like being with others of your species
and you want to be accepted by them.

Now you are of course free to rape and pillage, rather then show
empathy or any altruism. Society will soon exclude you if you do
however, so its not really in your self interest to do so. Not only
that, but it would mean that I could rape and pillage your family
and belongings too, which would make for nervous living for you.

So it makes sense to agree on a code of "morality" by which we
both benefit and live more sustainably and harmoniously. That way
we get to live and reproduce. If we all killed each other, we would
soon go extinct as a species.

In other words, if you want to get along with the rest of us,
it is in your self interest to show altruism and empathy.

Pelican, you say “It makes good evolutionary sense to show compassion and behave altruistically for the good of community.”

I don’t think this has been “proved”, but still it doesn’t explain why I “should” act for the good of the community. What’s so valuable about the community, that I should try to protect it, that it "should" survive? Even supposing the community wants to survive, why are actions that promote its survival “good”. O’Donnell should explain this.

Are animals our role model, is that what evolution teaches us? O’Donnell argues that we should be altruistic because some animals sometimes are. Not very persuasive. Some animals sometimes eat their young – doubtless for a laudable evolutionary purpose – shall we model that behaviour?

It is also not clear to me that the animals observed are exercising a choice, of the kind we would call a moral choice. They just do what they do. Evolution creates imperatives, doesn’t it?

Anyhow, O’Donnell has not explained what makes altruism “good”.

Yabby, you conclude “In other words, if you want to get along with the rest of us, it is in your self-interest to show altruism and empathy.”

Thank you, but I was rather hoping to hear something more impressive than self-interest. I think we can do better, and if evolutionary theory cannot comprehend or imagine anything better, then so much for evolutionary theory. I don’t say this means God exists: I just mean that, without God, “good” is not looking too flash.

Your earlier punchline is, “If we all killed each other, we would soon go extinct as a species.”

That doesn’t help me. Why “should” we survive? What’s so significant about us?

Philip Tang, thanks for the Fraud in Science link. Fascinating. The new atheists won’t like it, of course, having placed their faith in science. (Mind you, one thing I agree with Dawkins about is that religious people should not be beyond reach of ethical scrutiny, and have long hidden “above” it.) Your link helps level the field, making sure the atheists don’t similarly adopt a “more ethical than thou” mentality.

Pax,

Yabby says its about 'wanting to be accepted by your group'

Then he suggests that Goodthief is free to 'rape and pillage' if he likes..

*BUSTED* Yabby.. the presupposition behind that little burst is that 'raping and pillaging are wrong'..and there are 1.2 billion people in this world who are following a man who did both of those things and they call him 'The best of all mankind'!

So.. there is nothing 'innately' "wrong" or evil about raping and pillaging if you have the 'right' theology....

I continue to be amazed that this seems to be slipping through to the keeper in so many minds.

Pelican... you also need a dose of Dr Boaz finest snake oil medicine..

"It makes evolutionary sense to be good to the group"....

WHAT ABOUT THE GROUP IN RELATION TO OTHER groups ? (x 100)

Raping..Pillaging.. definitely 'evil'... yet approved of by 'the group' as long as it is being done to 'another' group.

But the law of God.. if followed will prevent atrocities between groups.

It is ONLY the law of God which can do this.. because if your group exists as a result of conflict.. taking territory, raping and pillaging.. then it will have created numerous enemies with long memories.
But if people in both groups are under the Kingdom of God, then 2 things should happen:
1/ More Equitable management and sharing of resources.
2/ Less feeling of 'us/them' and more feeling just of 'we together'.

*I was rather hoping to hear something more impressive than self-interest.*

You can hope all you like, but self interest is hugely critical
in human behaviour. If you help the little old lady across the
street, it makes you feel good. As you enjoy feeling good,
it therefore makes sense to help the little old lady across
the street :)

* Why "should" we survive? What's so significant about us?*

Well we might not in the end. Nothing siginificant about us,
just a bit larger brain then other species and superior vocal
chords. If the planet lands up spinning with little more then
cockroaches and ants, then clearly we were smart enough to
develop new things etc, not smart enough to use them wisely.

Species either adapt to their environments or they go extinct.
Rats for instance, have adapted extremely well to those new
city environments, so they thrive!

No busted at all BD. I remind you that the Xtian armies raped
an pillaged on their way to war, in the name of God. We won't even
start about the mass killings in the OT.