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The Forum > Article Comments > Passing harsh judgment on people we liked > Comments

Passing harsh judgment on people we liked : Comments

By Tim Kroenert, published 1/2/2008

Just ask any Aussie environmentalist how it felt to watch Peter Garrett join the Labor Party, then studiously toe the party line.

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A spoon may stay a spoon but the red caterpillar is usually the blue butterfly.
Posted by HenryVIII, Friday, 1 February 2008 10:44:40 AM
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Peter Garrett is proof that, once you go into politics, you have to toe the party line - particularly in the ALP where individual thought is not allowed to be expressed publicly.
Posted by Leigh, Friday, 1 February 2008 11:14:06 AM
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Yes, I often wonder how well Peter Garrett sleeps these days. No doubt he thought he'd have a greater chance of influencing policy through Labor than with the Greens. But he really should have known he'd be hobbled right from the start.

He's since gone on, in my eyes, to destroy every shred of credibility, and I once felt he had it in spades with Midnight Oil and in his general environmental advocacy prior to politics. His position now on nuclear and uranium shows incredible weakness.

The Chaser's song on Peter Garrett brilliantly says it all really. That's certainly how I'll always see him from now on - backflipping and turning on himself!

He is a good example of how we can vest too much hope in celebrity influence. I'd prefer to put my faith in much more staid advocates - people like Bob Brown for example - people who never chase celebrity but who stand out just the same - through their sheer integrity, their consistency and their fearlessness in speaking out against powerful vested interests.

Putting faith in celebrity is a real gamble. Most of them got where they are through focusing single-mindedly on their own advancement, and then when it comes to the crunch self interest will always rule.
Posted by Bronwyn, Friday, 1 February 2008 11:34:41 AM
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The author says:

"When such figureheads fall, it's often their followers who feel most injured. Disillusion breeds contempt. Among former admirers, adoration turns to aggro in the blink of an eye."

Never a truer word spoken Mr Kroenert, as we see Leigh espouse:

"once you go into politics, you have to toe the party line - particularly in the ALP where individual thought is not allowed to be expressed publicly."

Talk about 'the pot calling the kettle black' - of course John dubya never expected such cronyism or blinkered-eye vision from his lot.
Posted by Q&A, Friday, 1 February 2008 11:50:35 AM
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Tha man has'nt taken his seat in parliament yet, so let him get his foot in the door and listen to him, then bark!

Leigh you are something, the coalition lot could'nt even cough in parliament. Talk about control! there again you have considered they where lefties!
Posted by Kipp, Friday, 1 February 2008 3:58:29 PM
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How'd the MO song go; better to live on your knees than die on your feet?
Posted by palimpsest, Friday, 1 February 2008 4:24:54 PM
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don't you think it's kind of strange, that politics in oz is talk about celebrities? not political celebrities, pop stars!

this is politics for children, politics for people who can't play any serious role for lack of democracy.
Posted by DEMOS, Friday, 1 February 2008 7:04:35 PM
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Mr Garret had, and still has, an option available to him. Resign. But he won't because the banana is now fully bent and yellow.
A man with such maleable convictions is well suited to public office and serves as a living cartoon comment on politics at all levels where, once the votes are counted the voters become irrelevant and self interest and a#se covering becomes of paramount concern.
Last Friday the self proclaimed eco warrior approved the clearing of the site for Gunns pulp mill, ao now the D8's can turn their attention away from buldozing the Tasmanian parliament to buldozing trees. (What's the c[arb]on credit scheme on that, I wonder?)
Is this a rant? Well, it's my rant and I'm entitled to it.
Leigh, I believe you were spot on again.
Posted by enkew, Saturday, 2 February 2008 7:18:09 AM
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Hey Timmy, has it ever occured to your vestigial brain that those who act out the moral puritans and wag their fingers at others, just might be Elmer Gantry figures who are enriching themselves by acting out a role?

I mean, you have dozens of pop stars who want to Save the Planet, Save the Whale, Save the Farmers, and Save the Environment. But this is coming from people who live in mansions with bodyguards, snort enough cocaine to enrich hundreds of murderous narcotrafficantes, have share portfolios and investment advisers, and who own private jets belching carbon.

And you take these guys seriously?

But don't wory about Peter Garret. When Labor loses the next election and he loses his seat, Peter can always go back to his mansion in Moss Vale and prostrate himself before the local enviornmentalists. Then he can do a Jimmy Swaggart.

I can just see him throwing himself on his knees and screaming "Ah have sinned, Lord."

All will be forgiven, and it will be business as usual. Like P.T. Barnum said. "There is one born every minute."
Posted by redneck, Saturday, 2 February 2008 7:44:56 AM
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So all these world and environmental and poverty problems are now Peter Garrett’s fault with a little help from Sting and Bono. Bastards. Why haven’t they saved the world yet. We loved them enough. They should have done it by now. Jerks.

Hold on a second. What about Russell Crowe, Hugh Jackman, Tim Finn, Dave Grohl, Michael Jordan, Ronaldhino, Thierry Henry and LeBron James?
When are Bert Newton, Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, Alan Jones and John Laws going to start sorting out world poverty?
What the hell have Bruce Springsteen, Paul Simon, Elton John and Eric Clapton done for the environment lately?
And what about Jimmy Page and Robert Plant? Oh sorry. Wait a minute. They wrote “Nobody’s Fault but Mine,” so we can’t blame them
Posted by ericc, Saturday, 2 February 2008 4:01:58 PM
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Yes, like Palimpsett, I think you have to lose some battles to win "THE WAR" I was like you when younger but old age has taught some lessons.If you are in an Australian political Party, despite some trumpeting that their members can cross, with impunity, the floor, if they believe an issue on the platform of their party is wrong. They will be brave but no longer there next election!Only BOB KATTER AND HIS ILK survive after making a name and fighting for their community "after" starting in a party Disunity is the worst disease for any party to catch.Sure, "Democracy" ain't perfect, tell me out of the rest which one you'd prefer!
Posted by TINMAN, Saturday, 2 February 2008 4:21:10 PM
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Mr Garret is not a child. He knew very well what he was doing. He exchange his personal history with the Chair. He took the Chair. What else does he want? Credibility? It does not depend on the ALP government but on Australian people. Forget it!!
Posted by ASymeonakis, Saturday, 2 February 2008 5:26:33 PM
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I thought about this very subject 2 years ago whilst in Alice Springs sitting in air conditioned comfort listening (along with the faithful hanging onto every word) to Tim Flannery promote his new book "The Weather Maker". His message - current society had to cut back on carbon emmissions now to save the planet. He then left to go straight to the airport to board a jet and go to another air conditioned auditorium to deliver the same message on his whirlwind tour to promote his book for profit.

Am I the only one who sees the hypocrisy?
Posted by tragedy, Tuesday, 5 February 2008 12:00:25 PM
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"Am I the only one who sees the hypocrisy?"

Yes, I think you could be, Tragedy.

Did you expect Flannery to travel by camel-cade or billy-cart to Alice Springs?

And would you have attended the forum had it been conducted in the midday sun?

And do you know anyone else who has published and distributed a book at his/her own expense?

The positive aspect of Tim Flannery's far flung travels, taken for an urgent cause, has, like Al Gore's similar travels, drawn attention to climate change and as a result, many people are endeavouring to reduce their carbon footprint.

Flannery has written over 100 peer-reviewed papers.

Parts of Australia along with several of its eco systems are now threatened or have become extinct. That's also part of Flannery's message and that message is scientific. Why pass such harsh judgment on the man?
Posted by dickie, Wednesday, 6 February 2008 5:14:05 PM
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tragedy

The problem is these men believe their own lies. In 10 years time (or maybe less) we will be laughing at how so many could be so gullible by listening to these prophets of doom.
Posted by runner, Wednesday, 6 February 2008 5:36:45 PM
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Runner

Perhaps in "10 years time or less" we may all be laughing at the gullibility of the disciples of your "Prophet of Doom" - disciples who also believe their own lies about supernatural deities and deny the myriad of scientific evidence produced by mere mortals.

You know that Prophet...the one disciples believe threatens fire and brimstone for the disbelievers though he/she remains mute and invisible and is unable to provide any links to substantiate the power of the threats or proof of his/her existence?

I believe Runner, you refer to him/her as the "Almighty?"

Therefore Runner, judge not harshly or you too will be judged!
Posted by dickie, Thursday, 7 February 2008 12:46:39 AM
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Dickie

"Did you expect Flannery to travel by camel-cade or billy-cart to Alice Springs?"

No I would have expected that if you were going to spruik about reducing carbon emmissions you might lead by example. Eg in today's technologically advanced world, why didn't Flannery forsake the flying around Australia and the world and use the internet from his energy-saving house to promote his ideas and lecture the world on how to live according to the gospel of Timmy?

"And do you know anyone else who has published and distributed a book at his/her own expense?"

The last time I looked at my copy of "The Weather Makers" Flannery was not the publisher nor the distributor. In fact the publisher introduced him at Alice Springs and said how proud she was to publish his book.

"Flannery has written over 100 peer-reviewed papers"

Flannery has not written over 100 peer-reviewed papers on climate change.

"Parts of Australia along with several of its eco systems are now threatened or have become extinct"

Which parts of Australia have become extinct? As far as I know Aust is still the same shape as when Flinders first mapped it. What a bizarre claim.

I pass harsh judgment on Flannery, Dickie because its all about big selfish dollars. Flannery wants to make as much money for himself, fair enough, but why is it alright for him to emit lots of carbon doing it while he demands everyone else curb their ways?

And don't get me started on Gore.
Posted by tragedy, Thursday, 7 February 2008 2:33:09 PM
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"I pass harsh judgment on Flannery, Dickie because its all about big selfish dollars. Flannery wants to make as much money for himself, fair enough, but why is it alright for him to emit lots of carbon doing it while he demands everyone else curb their ways?"

This is a ridulous claim, tragedy. If Flannery was motivated by money, he'd be an 'environmental' consultant to a mining company or in some other lucrative private sector position. Same goes for Al Gore. They are driven by the knowledge they possess and a strong sense of civic duty. And the rest of us are better off for it.
Posted by Bronwyn, Thursday, 7 February 2008 4:10:33 PM
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Tragedy. You have made wild accusations over my claims and I regret that you have misused my information by re-arranging my statement and asking: "Which parts of Australia have become extinct" when I'm sure posters would realise that I was referring to Australia's currently threatened and numerous extinct eco systems.

In addition it is also unfortunate that you failed to perform any research prior to your attack. This would have prevented you from having egg all over your face:

"At a national level, Western Australia has 8 of 12 Australian biodiversity hotspots.

"At a global level, the South West is recognised as one of the world's 34 biodiversity hotspots.

"Throughout the southwest of Western Australia, 44 percent of all jarrah forest has been cleared, while nearly 90 percent of all eucalyptus woodlands has been cleared (Mittermeier et al. 1999).

"Logging, agriculture, and mining are all forms of land use in this ecoregion.

"WA currently has 362 threatened plants, 199 threatened animals and 69 threatened ecological communities.

"Recovery plans have been developed for less than one-third of threatened species and ecological communities.

"There is ongoing loss and degradation of biodiversity in WA.

"Knowledge about many species and ecosystems and some threats to biodiversity remains inadequate.

"Fifty percent of all mammalian extinctions of the last 200 years occurred in Australia (Short and Smith 1994), and a large portion of these extinctions were concentrated in Western Australia.

"This ecoregion and the well-watered ecoregions along the coast have a better mammalian fauna than the more arid regions, including the wheatbelt, which is marked with a number of extinctions (Burbidge and McKenzie 1989).

"Threats include introduced weeds (especially grasses, Iridaceae, Asteraceae, Fabaceae, and Brassicaceae), grazing by introduced and domestic animals and dieback (or root rot) caused by Phytophthora spp.

"Phytophora cinnamomi is well established in the wetter regions in southwest Western Australia and has caused the collapse of entire ecological communities (Coates and Atkins 2001).

Tragedy. I must ask you again why you pass such harsh judgment on the eminently qualified experts in this field when your own claims/denials are either fraudulent or very naive?
Posted by dickie, Thursday, 7 February 2008 8:15:48 PM
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Listen here Dickie, if you want to claim that I am either fraudulant or naive then YOU had better get your facts right.

I quoted your post and let me repeat what you wrote "Parts of Australia along with several of its eco systems are now threatened or have become extinct."

Now you can squirm all you like but you wrote it. You are claiming parts of Australia AND some of its ecosystems are threatened or extinct. Now all I wanted was for you to tell me which parts of Australia had become extinct (your words). I am not interested in your diatribe about ecosystems.

However, while on ecosystems, your selective quoting on mammalian extinctions exposes your niaivity and dare I say it - your fraudulent claims. (cont'd)
Posted by tragedy, Friday, 8 February 2008 6:10:16 PM
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Cont'd

Of the 18 species that have become extinct since European settlement, only one lived in a forested environment (the Thylacine). The others occurred in the drier inland regions of the southern half of Australia. When you quote most of them are from WA this is incorrect as the extinctions had the following characteristics:

1). they affected mainly medium-sized species from dry habitats in the southern parts of mainland Aust (as mrentioned above);

2). they were spread over a long interval of time, and they spread in waves from south to north and from east to west over the continent, affecting smaller species first and larger species later; and

3). within regions the process unfolded very quickly as populations of many species collapsed within short periods of time (Johnson, 2006)

Burbidge & McKenzie (1989) paper only focused on WA declines and, whilst a good paper and still relevant in parts, some of its arguments have been discredited over the last 18 years.

You were being fraudulent in your quote from Short & Smith 1994). The last sentence on p288 and start of p289 says, & I quote "...two areas most affected are the southern arid zone (areas of spinifex desert as well as areas of extensive pastoralism) and the wheatbelt of Western Australia"
cont'd

The problem with the debate on mammal extinctions in Aust, is that the ancient and recent extinctions have been treated as completely separate and independent problems. To understand the high rate of extinction and endangerment of Australian mammals in recent history we must begin by looking back at the events of the late Pleistocene and Holocene. This, I concede, was very well covered by Tim Flannery in Future Eaters.

So Dickie and Bronwyn I don't have a beef about Flannery's science, I have a beef about his modus operandi.
Posted by tragedy, Friday, 8 February 2008 6:11:49 PM
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