Coach,Kactuz,Boaz-david,and Philip Tang.

The references and the well articulated commentary provided, should be propogated far and wide. The Ibn Warriq recent speech provided by Philip T is quite excellent.

I can personally attest to the fact that having an intellegent debate with them about their cultish "religion" is impossible, because they shut it down. They dont mind proseltysing, but having an intelligent debate is not on. It is case of just listen and accept.

To Coach's question, " are we being betrayed by our own Government for the sake fo a few dollars.." the answer is Yes.

Just ask Downer for his views on whether we should be providing higher edcuation to Saudi students and thereby take some the billions that are on offer, when these students will arrive here with their heads full of hatred of us, courtesy of their own governments high school curriculum and the wahhabis.

Having a sensible conversation with these people is impossible for all the reasons canvassed above, and the sooner this is more widely understood the better.

It is they who have to change not us, and until they do we should be mimimising our exposure as nation to them.

Hello-o-o-o? Pot here. Hey Kettle!

>>I can personally attest to the fact that having an intellegent debate with them about their cultish "religion" is impossible, because they shut it down. They dont mind proseltysing, but having an intelligent debate is not on. It is case of just listen and accept.<<

Sounds so much like the proselytising Christians we atheists have to put up with on this forum. Intelligent debate? No chance. Our way or the highway, boyo.

We happily put up with it, because we are aware that there is a certain type of person who needs bone-deep religion, in order to give their lives meaning. We know enough to avoid denigrating that religion, however misguided it might seem to us to be, and confine ourselves to drawing attention to the various unpleasant behaviours that it can lead to.

The vast majority of both atheists and believers-in-God, by the way, tend to avoid ramming their own particular "truth" down the throats of all+sundry. It's simply a form of politeness.

Talking of bigotry, how about this from Philip Tang:

>>Conversation between a Muslim and a non-Muslim can start only when Muslims can share a meal of pork ribs and drink beer with non-Muslims without feeling they are un-Islamic.<<

Philip, does this rule also prohibit a conversation with a vegetarian? They don't eat pork ribs either. Or with an alcoholic, who won't drink beer? It is a very totalitarian world that dictates what people can and cannot eat and drink.

The general idea of living in a free country is that we do not allow such attitudes to infect our laws. The kind of country that does feel the necessity to impose such restrictions is, ironically, exactly the kind that you zealots affect to despise. How creepy is that?

I know from experience that there is no point in discussing this with you bible-bashers, having an intelligent debate about your cultish "religion" is impossible, because you simply don't want to hear how similar you are to those that you rail against... now where have I heard those sentiments recently...?

Pericles,

News flash:
(your words)
>>It is a very totalitarian world that dictates what people can and cannot eat and drink.<<

This is the world that is being imposed on us Mr. Pericles, Sir.

>>The general idea of living in a free country is that we do not allow such attitudes to infect our laws. <<

So what are you going to do about it Mr. Pericles? have another beer and whatch the tube next to your vegeterian church-goer catholic wife while our standards are being compromised daily?

Someone has to do something about the threat to this country - you seem not to care much... except criticise those who do.

SO I ask you politely: "Get a life my poor poor miserable man."

Pericles,

Where on earth did you get the idea that I am religious.

My debate with the proseltysing muslim was about the relevance of it all, eg, why is the virgin birth anymore or less credidible than the muzzoes believing that their prescious prophet rode a white horse across the sky to Jerusalem.

Having a conversation with muslims is always going to be fraught, whilst they operate under a belief system that is still in the 8th century and is the most violent and delusional of them all.

Congratulations, coach. Everything I disagree with in one concise post.

>>News flash:
(your words)<<

That's the first mystery. Not my words at all.

>>"It is a very totalitarian world that dictates what people can and cannot eat and drink."
This is the world that is being imposed on us Mr. Pericles, Sir.<<

Who, exactly, is imposing what, upon whom? I have no idea where you live, but where I come from there are no significant restrictions on what I can and cannot eat and drink. It is complete fantasy to suggest that we are under threat from forces of totalitarianism - there is simply no evidence of it.

>>"The general idea of living in a free country is that we do not allow such attitudes to infect our laws."
So what are you going to do about it Mr. Pericles? have another beer and whatch the tube next to your vegeterian church-goer catholic wife while our standards are being compromised daily?<<

The surprising thing is - to you, at least - is that no-one has to "do" anything about an imaginary threat. It is like believing that you have to feed an imaginary friend; it makes sense to you, but looks thoroughly weird to those around you.

Your paranoia is of course self-feeding. The more people try to persuade you that your fears are illusory, the more you believe that they are part of the conspiracy against you. Sad, really.

>>Someone has to do something about the threat to this country - you seem not to care much... except criticise those who do.<<

Your idea of "doing something" is constantly vilify another religion. Presumably believing that your perceived enemies will then simply fold their tents and creep away.

Any idea why they would do this?

>>SO I ask you politely: "Get a life my poor poor miserable man."<<

I'm not sure where you get the idea that I am miserable. It is not me who has the paranoid fear of being taken over by an alien force, after all, but you.

So might that simply be transference?

Yeah, Pericles - I agree with every word and sentiment of your last post. I've said much the same elsewhere.

Ultimately, I think that the extreme antagonism towards Islam - and by extension, Muslims - expressed by our friends here emanates from a kind of mindless, visceral fear; primarily fear of change, but objectified in the scapegoats of the moment.

In my frank opinion, most of the clowns in this thread are little better than Islamophobic trolls, who don't deserve serious attention. I admire and envy Pericles' seemingly indefatigable patience in trying to explain the obvious to the intransigent :)