Fester “One of my siblings has a problem with alcohol, and despite this, has achieved much in life, and continues to achieve. So the above comment I find personally offensive, Col.”

Last night I spent with 4 other people for 3 of which it was a once in 25 year reunion. They recalled the indulgences of their youth, drug use including as one fellow said, the ingestion, injection and inhalation of every substance which he could think would given him a high.

That included datura tea, he described his descent into a hallucinogenic maelstrom and the side effects which lasted several days.

I know one of the others suffered secondary conditions from drug pursuits of those days and regrets that they are self-inflicted.

I lost friends 30 years ago to overdoses. I think they and the datura tea brewer were tossers too, for trying to escape their reality instead of dealing with it.

So I guess, your personal sensibilities are not the issue, this is not just about you.

“the ability to quit is a measure of one's character.”

Not at all, it is the inability to stay off addictive substances which is the measure of lack of character, addicts continue to run away from the realities of there lives

“Then it isn't a successful treatment, is it?”

The treatment is fine but it does not fix the lack of character.

I do not expect applause, gratitude or recognition for not taking drug of dependency or giving up smoking. My life my choice.

Drug dealers sell marijuana laced with other drugs with the intention of creating addicts from casual drug users. You might consider dealers as “redeemable characters”, I don’t.

Serial drug dealers (second offence) do not deserve to share air with other people.

A death sentence is all that those who are second offence drugs dealers should have to look forward to.

When that happens we will be a little closer to real “zero tolerance”.

Col Rouge,

"The crime is more heinous than, say a murder acted out of passion because the drug dealer is indifferent to the victim, similar to a serial killer selecting victims at random and a second offence means “serial activity”."

The national annual death toll for illicit drugs is about 1,000. Motor vehicles kill 1,600; alcohol claims 2,000; tobacco 19,000; heart disease 50,000+. I'm guessing we should start stringing up all those car salesmen, bottle-shop workers, checkout chicks and lining up the 15 year olds from the local fast food joint to be shot. Clearly they are indifferent to their victims.

"Drug dealers sell marijuana laced with other drugs with the intention of creating addicts from casual drug users."

Lack of quality control is a side effect of making drugs illegal. Also this an urban myth for the most part, its quite a competitive market and such tactics would drive their customers to other dealers.

"A death sentence is all that those who are second offence drugs dealers should have to look forward to. "

Bringing in the death sentence would mean drug dealers have nothing to lose. They would arm themselves, never submit to police and thus there would be a dramatic increase in the number of armed gangs in the country. Given the estimated annual revenue of the drugs trade is of the same order of magnitude as the total national police budget, the drug dealers could potentially out man and out gun our police force if they were pressed into an all out confrontation. Unless you're prepared to accept a massive tax increase to pay for extra police and prisons, as well as a massive increase in the amount of violence in our society, and significantly more drug trade related deaths (including police and innocent bystanders) then you shouldn't push for such punishments.

“what you are talking about is more drugs to try to stop the use of other drugs.”

If this results in a better outcome for the patient then what is your concern, Jolanda? Isn't this the aim of pharmacology? Would you rather people be hopeless drug addicts or pop a pill and become productive members of society, much like insulin addicts regularly shoot up to do likewise?

“Addiction is a weakness in character, it has nothing to do with genes and everything to do with personality and environment”

Can you prove this Jolanda?

Col

Thanks for your thoughts. I have trouble accepting that drug abuse is totally a matter of conscious control. You might have experienced the lack of rational control in otherwise normal people suffering phobias.

Nonetheless, would you support options other than zt if they gave better outcomes for addicts, their dependents and families, and the community at large?

Despipis “death toll for illicit drugs is about 1,000. Motor vehicles 1,600; alcohol 2,000; tobacco 19,000; heart disease 50,000+.”

I have never heard of someone with a heart condition robbing others to get a fix of angina medication.

I have never heard of a smoker running amok during a tobacco induced psychotic episode.

If you want to promote ridicule of your posts, you are going the right way about it.

The illegality of psychotic, addictive drugs is as much down to what the user does to others as it is what he does to himself.

Legalize heroin, cocaine, methamphetamine, marijuana etc. and the death rate from those drugs will explode in 20 years time. Not just the death of users but also the death of innocent bystanders, slain during a users psychotic rages.

I have recently and more than once, overheard someone, completely deluded, ranting on over a mobile phone for more than an hour about how the world owes him and how he wants to get even, the result of extended marijuana use and experiments with ecstasy.

“Lack of quality control is a side effect of making drugs illegal. Also this an urban myth for the most part, its quite a competitive market and such tactics would drive their customers to other dealers.”

The first time I personally saw something laced with foreign drugs was 1966. it was no myth.

As for the competitiveness of the market ensuring “quality standards”,

Ingesting drugs made from battery acid, ammonia derivatives and other substances, the side effects of which are to cause the skull to breakdown and weaken, or to convince the user that bugs are growing under their skin are not urban legend.

Yet you stand here and defend those who would profit from such trade?

You must be very short of righteous causes if you are going to suggest that scum like the Moran’s and Mokbel’s deserve to walk free among us.

The one good thing about the recent Melbourne drug wars was the dealers were killing each other, instead of worthwhile people.

Col:

I'm not advocating the complete legalisation of all illicit drugs. I'm disagreeing with your draconian, militant approach to dealing with them. (For the record, Zero Tolerance would be execution on the first offense)

I take it you've never heard of:
- reckless driving resulting in death;
- alcohol related violence;
- dangers of second hand smoke;
- theft to cover gambling addiction debts or alcohol addiction?

There are plenty of things that lead people to cause harm to others just as much as drugs do, none of which call for the death sentence.

"As for the competitiveness of the market ensuring “quality standards”,"

I wasn't implying that the competitiveness ensured quality, just merely those who sought repeat customers would attempt to please them by provided what they were after and thus lacing drugs to get people hooked would in fact lose the dealer business. Because of the illegality, there is no regulation and there are those out there who would sell 'laced' (on purpose, or just poorly managed) drugs to make a quick buck.

"Legalize heroin, cocaine, methamphetamine, marijuana etc. and the death rate from those drugs will explode in 20 years time. Not just the death of users but also the death of innocent bystanders, slain during a users psychotic rages.
...
Yet you stand here and defend those who would profit from such trade?"

You're looking at one extreme and running towards the other without considering what its going to be like when you get there. The best solution is going to fall somewhere in the middle.

Col

So now its the drug Armageddon is it? What evidence do you have for this? You seem to demand very high standards of evidence for global warming, yet the drug apocalypse you describe blows away the rantings of agw fanatics.

Now whether you think agw is all a big conspiracy is by the by, Col. But why do you think that agw needs evidence and your ideas dont?

I always thought that drug prohibition came about because the Mafia needed a racket after alcohol prohibition ended. Some explicit photos of J Edgar Hoover having sex with his boyfriend sealed the deal.