Col Rouge - you're guilty of one of the most commonly used misleading debate tactics around these parts.

I do get rather sick of people exaggerating their opponent's viewpoint, so they can then stomp on it and make their own look more palatable. It's weak and it's not constructive.

Col : "Better than your “plan”, turning streets over to drug crime and suffer the greater harm to the innocent which will prevail."

And the other chestnut: "apologists for a junkie society"

Funny, I don't recall saying that. I seem to recall saying things like zero tolerance should be reviewed. I think we need to consider alternative treatment plans to prison in some instances of users. Mostly I just think putting people to death for addiction is cruel and stupid.

From what I've seen most people here are simply trying to address the problem, rather than creating a 'junkie society.'

TurnRightThenLeft “Mostly I just think putting people to death for addiction”

I did not suggest that.

I said “Second offences drug dealers should be summarily terminated”

for profiting from and exploiting addicts.

If they are caught offending for a second time, they have obviously demonstrated complete contempt for the lives and well being of their fellow citizens.

I made no comment to the benefits or otherwise of alternative strategies but pointed out the author suggested no alternatives, merely whined about zero tolerance

Desipis the link supports the fact that "80% of property offences have some drug involvement. Between 45% and 60% of convicted offenders committed property crimes to support drug habits. 64% of offenders admitted using drugs to commit an offence.".

The references you refer to were interpreted suppositions, they do not carry the same objective value as statistical fact.

“I was arguing the that drugs don't imply crime” – then prove it.

From what I have seen, there is a significantly greater certainty that those suffering drug dependency will rob someone else, to fund there addiction or the drug delusional will assault someone because they fail to respect the rights of others, compared to the action of the non-drug dependent / impaired.

In response to the idea of ”the chain reaction to zero tolerance ”

Accept drug abuse and you will get more addiction
Addiction debases the fabric of the community
Debase the fabric of the community and you diminish the quality of life for all

I personally want my children and grandchildren to inherit something better than a cesspool populated by clapped out junkies.

I want somewhere my daughters are safe from being attacked, abused or robbed by some junkie needing money for a fix or just experiencing a psychotic episode.

The best way of ensuring that is “zero tolerance” to the aggressive antisocial behaviour adopted by drug addicts (be the drug of dependency alcohol, cocaine, heroin, methamphetamine, marijuana (despite its detrimental effects, the only drug of dependency I know of which does not induce “delusions” of some sort is tobacco).

Col Rouge: "...they have obviously demonstrated complete contempt for the lives and well being of their fellow citizens."

One could say that about everyone who breaks the law more than once, including those who speed, park illegally and jay walk.

"The references you refer to were interpreted suppositions, they do not carry the same objective value as statistical fact."

Wow, way to cherry pick. If you understand anything about statistics, you'd know they rarely carry clear objective values, especially when they're taken from a conservatives politician's comments on the launch of the Australia National Council on Drugs.

As for the correlation between drugs and crime, one thing against zero tolerance is that harsh drug laws increase this correlation. During the prohibition in the early 20th century there would have been a significant correlation between crime and alcohol. However, today we see plenty of people enjoying a drink or two responsibly.

There are at three factors behind the correlation.

Firstly, by having a harsh punishment for drugs you remove the discouragement from committing other crimes - if you make the punishment for petty theft the same as murder, there will be a lot more violent crimes as thieves have nothing to lose by killing witnesses.

Secondly, the risk factors for drug abuse are the same as those for crime in general: lower economic status, lower education, greater life stress.

Thirdly, as our criminal justice system is full of drug offenders, non drug using criminals are forced into direct contact with drugs, and simple drug users are forced into direct contact with criminals. Harsh drug laws only strengthens this association.

Just because there is a correlation between drug abuse and crime does not mean there is a direct causative link.

"Accept drug abuse and you will get more addiction"
I'm not talking about accepting or condoning drug abuse, or the damage that it does to society. I'm just advocating the approach that has been statistically shown to reduce drug related crime. We should treat addicts to help them become productive members of society rather than damning them as inhuman monsters.

YES.. I ACTUALLY AGREE... that from one usually characterized as a right wing loony....

The problem with drug taking is not 'how tough' we need to be to stop it... but how empty our lives are as a society.

Barren, dark.. grim... hopeless, decadent, amoral, post modern social disaster areas and train wrecks.. NO WONDER people take drugs.

We have stolen from them all hope and meaning.. robbed them of dignity and self respect.. assured them that their 'strange' feelings are 'quite normal' and bent over backwards to tell them 'there is no such thing as 'sin'.....

But many people are confused, dismayed, empty, and directionless.
Others are quite happy to live a life without an eternal reference point, and consider themselves quite fine...

But I suggest its like the undeveloped print.. the image is there.. just not clear yet.

So..SURE.. lets not be so tough on drugs... let's be TOUGH ON re-establishing enduring eternal values in the community.. that might go further in diminishing the drug problem.

Only empty misguided people 'need' drugs. Life can be quite a blast when God is in our lives.

I think it is wrong for our laws to condone illicit drug usage. The more harmful the drugs to the user the tougher the laws should be. I don't think users should be the target of tough laws, however the dealers should feel the full brunt of law enforcement. Dealers know that they are harming people and that they are taking advantage of serious addiction.

These arguments that good people do bad things because of their addiction just proves how addictive the drugs are and how much the drugs affect a person’s health. Health here being normal homeostasis and behaviours.

The pro-drug lobby’s method, and I've read this on their propaganda sites, is to convince the wider-community that they are doing the wider community a favour by allowing drugs. It's a trick that manipulates the self interest of the general population at the expense of the people who become and are addicted. If we truly are a community with a belief in social justice for all, we owe it to the addicted and the potential addictives to be tough on those who would take advantage of their condition.

I agree with the Kathryn that society tends to push youngsters towards seeking some way to counter the bad feelings that comes with living in a society that doesn’t seem to care about their wellbeing. There is not a lot of validation directed at certain sections of youth .

Selling drugs to disaffected youth and people is the lowest of acts. Just more exploitation, more knocks to their feelings of self-worth.. And the pro-drug lobby wanting the government to make it legal beggars’ belief. We have enough trouble now with alcohol abuse (as opposed to sensible use) without exacerbating the situation by flooding the place with other substances.

I think we need to draw firm boundaries through tough laws so our youth and people know they matter. Helping keep people from addictive substances sends a message that they are worthy of better treatment and that they don’t need to rely on drugs to feel good –especially about themselves.

The pro-drug lobby’s logic is flawed and hypocritical, especially, as they are claiming the moral high ground. For instance: they often argue that it is hypocritical for cigarettes to be legal while other harmful drugs are illegal. They want illicit drugs made legal. So to really hold a moral, ethical and logical argument these pro-drug "moralisers" should be arguing for both tobacco and drugs to be made illegal rather than unleashing more harmful drugs into society.

It’s claimed that ecstasy and marijuana users are usually cigarette smokers too, so these addicts are often already abusing their health with harmful substances. Thus, it stands to reason that they aren’t interested in health or long term consequences of their behaviours.

One symptom that addictive drugs present is the person’s reliance on them to maintain normal feelings (another is self-deception).
AMA QLD President, DR Ross Cartmill, says: " All the evidence shows that people steadily increase dosage to get the same effect. People may think they are managing their usage but it is the insidious nature of the drugs that is their most dangerous aspect."

To supply a drug that alters a person’s physical and mental make up so that they will need more to maintain their normal feelings I think is wrong and too harmful to be made lawful.

The pro-drug lobby counter the scientific evidence , which can be found in any bio-chemistry book ,with anecdotal personal stories - like the ones you’d hear when they realised cigarettes caused cancer.

Their argument that cigarettes are harmful, and yet legal, so it’s only proper that they should be allowed their illicit drugs too, is hardly a basis for claiming a moral high ground. It is hypocrisy.

I think the pro-drug lobby's position is self-interest. This just adds to the perception of a callous, selfish society amongst our youth. They must feel like mere consumers to be exploited. The law must reflect a genuine long-term concern for all its citizens’ health and wellbeing – not just those who want a threat removed or hidden and easy access to their favourite drugs.