Waterboy,

Thanks for your comments, and thanks for helping to interpret Sellick. I do find him hard to understand.

However, I would not agree that the life of Graeme Staines is not an inspiration totally appropriate of the word martyr. The example of Australia’s missionaries abroad giving their lives in service and self sacrifice are a true legacy that could even help shape the Australian church.

And while the history of the church’s dealings with aboriginal Australia is terrible stained (no pun intended), I don’t like the way this history is rarely balanced by the positive stories coming out of the indigenous church.

For example, in May this year saw the completion of the first whole Bible translation into an indigenous language. The Kriol Bible project, the ‘Holi Baibul’, taking over 27 years, was a wonderful example of people from different cultures working side by side for the benefit of future generations and the glory of God

Mick V – how can the translation of a book full of lies and half truths, violence, genocidal massacres, racism, sexism, wars and dreadful retribution, be of value to anyone? The bible is a tendentious translation of an English tendentious translation, of a tendentious Latin translation, of a tendentious Greek translation of a compilation of myths and legends in Hebrew used to justify the genocide, rape and pillage the Jews indulged in, in unsuccessful efforts to gain control of Palestine and create a theocracy several thousand years ago – neither uplifting, nor moral.
Now, had they translated the writings of Thomas Paine, Montaigne, Russell… and other great moral philosophers who actually understood the human condition and desired the good of humankind – not the elevation of a religious sect and the violent and foul suppression of all dissent, then I would applaud the efforts.

Mick

The Staines murders are still very close tous historically and our responses tothat event are still coloured by our emotional reactions toits horror.Perhaps you are right and in time the church willrespond to their sacrifice in ways that recognise the Staines appropriately and take them asa model for Christian spiritual formation.

There is,however,a particularly powerful effectthat derives fromthe deaths of martyrs at the hand of the state.It isof crucial importance tothe formation ofthe early church that Jesus was executed by the state as a direct result of His prophetic ministry.Similarly, the Early Church was formed inthe crucible of violence,suffering andstate persecution.

My observation thatthe state sanctioned violence against our indigenous people is closer tothe sort of event that produces martyrs ofthe sort that Sells is talking about in no way diminishes the Indigenous Church.In fact the mainstream,European Churches,have found it necessary to recognise their own role inthe poor treatment of indigenous Australians (and the aboriginal peoples of all the colonies)and rethink their relationship tothe state.In my lifetime I have seen avery definite shift inthe Church's relationship tothe state.Today the Church has a farmore prophetic role in questioning and criticising the government.

Of course,the imperfect nature ofthe Church itself has alsobeen exposed very publicly over the last thirty years.Its prophetic voice,as important asit is,is still regarded with deep suspicion by the secular public as a result of the public humiliation of Priests and Church officials.The future of the Church in Australia hangs very much in the balance of how this problem works itself out.

How isthe IndigenousChurch embracing its history of victimisation atthe hands of Church and state?Is it a vigorous force in its own right?Isit able to speak out prophetically against the mainstream Church?
Can the mainstreamChurch be redeemed ordoes it deserve tofade away?
How mightthe mainstream Church find redemption in its relationship withthe Indigenous Church?

If Sells'analysis,viz-a-viz martyrs in the Church,is anywhere near the mark thenthe potential exists forthe IndigenousChurch to play a very powerful,possibly redemptive,role in the reformation of a truly Australian Church.I certainly donot know how this would work out butthere seems tobe some potential here.

Ybgirp,

It is important to record and remember the good AND the evil. You might have noticed that my attitude to the Church is ambivalent at best but there is a dimension of human existence,which religion explores, that goes beyond morality,philosophy and natural science. As you say,the Bible records much that is evil in the History of Judaeo-Christian culture.It also records the struggle of a wayward people to relate toand respond tothat spirit which lifts our lives up above the merely physical and organic.They don’t always achieve that ideal goal and the Bible records that fact.
While I admire the moral philosophers fortheir clever thinking I donot feel thattheir lofty,sanitized sentiments are as practically useful asthe crazy,muddled,sometimes ugly and brutal reality ofthe Bible.

I know that Spirit isa much abused word and I actually like it for that because youcan take it many different ways.You can love itor hate it!At least you can argue aboutit.For me thereis muchmore to spirituality than ethics/morality.It has todo withthe essence of being,of engaging the world forthe brief span ofone short life,enjoying ittothe utmost,and then letting go graciously.I don’t believe inany afterlife so I REALLY mean letting go!

You are wrong about many things! Christianity begins withthe death of Jesus Christ.Linguistically this event occurred ina language melting pot where Hebrew,Greek,Latin,Aramaic andother languages wereall in use.The play of languages is very important to any understanding ofthe NT.Translating the Bible is natural toit and hasthe effect of relativising it.It expands the metaphorical and parabolic nature ofthe text demanding thatitbe read in a certain way that isnot literal,thatis authoritative without being authority.Furthermore,modern translations are NEVER direct translations of the English,fromthe Latin etc.They refer toall available texts,particularly those texts which careful study suggests are most likely tobe close tothe original text.They certainly depend directly on Greek and Hebrew manuscripts.

Your post is self-contradictory.You condemn the Church for its “violentandfoul suppression of dissent” inthe same post asyou advocate the censure of literature thatdoes not suit your taste.Dare I suggest that you seema little hypocritical.It makes sense forthe Church to translate and transmit the Bible.Others can translate their preferred literature.

While a fellow Christian, Sells articles not quite my cup of tea.

Martyrdom is a real live experience for roughly speaking 100,000 Christians per annum, give or take a few tens of thousands. In October we will have the second anniversary of the martyrdom of 3 school girls beheaded by Islamic in Central Sulawesi. Australian Christians care deeply about the persecution of their brothers and sisters, often at the hand of Muslims, but Communists did their bit as well.

Good to read BOAZ_David's trip to Singapore. I notice a Chinese Government official recently acknowledged the number of Christians in China had now risen to 10% of the Chinese population, many former theists of course, but then atheism is a hopeless faith to embrace, as evidenced by a number of comments on this thread.

An interesting angle, Mr Palmer.

>>Martyrdom is a real live experience for roughly speaking 100,000 Christians per annum, give or take a few tens of thousands<<

Who are these people? You obviously have a specific segment of the population in mind, given the precision of the number. Are they listed somewhere, so that we can keep track of them? It would certainly add an interesting dimension to Sells' lament for the absence of Australians in their company if we could understand how they are identified, and who counts them up each year.

Intriguing.

>>In October we will have the second anniversary of the martyrdom of 3 school girls beheaded by Islamic in Central Sulawesi.<<

Could you perhaps provide a reference for items like this? Is it another of Boaz's YouTube propaganda piece, or something more credible? And it would also be useful to know whether these are actually the same kinds of martyrs that Sells concerns himself with. Somehow, I suspect not.

>>but then atheism is a hopeless faith to embrace, as evidenced by a number of comments on this thread<<

This is obviously one of the lines that Christians are taught on their "How to argue with atheists" courses.

But no matter how hard you try, folks, you are never going to get past the fact that atheism is not a faith. It is the absence of faith. Atheists, unlike religionists, do not share any common characteristics except that their absence of belief in deities.

Yours is not an argument that holds water. Never has. Never will.