Mick says "An atheist believes there is no god. " and then tries to make a case, contradicting his definition, using Philip Adams as an example, that an atheist believes in "nothing". This is funny stuff. i.e. If an atheist believes there is no god then that is belief .... say no more.

When people in particular talk about belief, one needs to offer some clarity. My point is that religion is simply belief in belief for its own sake rather than belief derived from some factual information which is where intelligence evolves. Religious faith or belief in belief alone, has always been a fact free zone because never is the connection between thought and action considered. Where is the need reinforced with an effective assessment of the situation, strategy, and the appropriate action to be taken? If the subconscious message is one of "simply believe, and it will be so." then this is nothing more than cultural codification of ancient magical thinking, a solipsistic dream, a drug, a mind virus and its implied corollary is "don't think negative thoughts, you might cause bad things to happen".

We have here one of the most dishonest concepts ever perpetrated by people. There is no truth in this delusional belief in belief. Because for many people, our brains seem to treat beliefs we consider to be true, almost exactly the same as facts, we need to learn to distinguish the two.... and it is that simple.

ps I'm sure it's possible to regard the idea of nothingness as just that, an idea and fictional too.

Yabby, it's more than just "by law".

When they villify others and try and create a climate of intollerance for those who don't choose the values of their faith it can create an amazing level of harm to others.

I watched the stories of a couple of men recently who had accepted that they were homosexual as adults and the pain they went through because of the hateful biggotry in part inspired by people claiming faith in the christain god. One of the men was a christain paster at the time. The one that touched me most was the man who grew up with a dad who made the most vile statements about homosexuals to his friends and family.

Meanwhile he had a teenage son growing up struggling with his sexual orientation. Years of pain trying to live as a straight male, husband, father etc while really he was doing none of those roles in a manner as himself. The power of narrow minded bigotry. Not entirely a church thing but much of the responsibility for ongoing intollerance and a refusal to accept the scientific evidence on that issue lies with those who claim faith in old middle eastern gods.

R0bert

Waterboy, I do not advocate censorship, I merely ask what possible use a book of ancient Semitic myths can be to Australian Aborigines in 2007. Especially galling is that the perpetrators of this idiocy are permitted to claim their nonsense as “The Truth”. If religions were not beyond the reach of all Australian laws, but subject to the same ethical demands as secular organisations, then they would be required to substantiate their claims. [They would also have to abide by Australian anti-discrimination laws and pay their share of taxes and open their accounts for auditing.]
Mick V, you are sorely misguided in your notion of faith and atheism. Atheist don’t believe there is no god, they merely state that there’s no reasonable evidence for any of the twenty thousand or so gods humans have invented and worshipped over the millennia, of which yours is a relatively recent example. Of course Communism is a faith… citizens were expected to believe, without evidence, in the advantages of communal ownership of everything. The fact that this required the suppression of other forms of faith such as Christianity, is beside the point. The pogroms and terror were in the name of Communism – never in the name of atheism. No war has ever been fought to promote disbelief in gods – on the contrary, too often they have been fought to force belief on others.
Atheists are not contributing to OLO or anywhere else in order to convert, but to prevent the usurpation of government by religious bigotry, to rescue children from indoctrination, and to preserve what's left of our once secular society. As for believing in nothing, don’t be silly. Most atheists value fairness, justice, kindness, compassion, freedom of thought and speech… in other words all the worthwhile traits heretofore lacking in the treatment of citizens by religion whenever they gain political power.

Well put R0bert,
I can attest to the harm done by religion in this regard, having known many sufferers. I only escaped by leaving this bigoted land as a youth, finding a partner from a country that valued humans, not faith, and not returning until I was secure enough to cope. If you tell a boy he’s sinful, unloved by god, his love is worthless and he is on the path to hell, then it makes it difficult for him to develop a sense of self worth. All he wants to do is hide. To conceal his true nature. And if that means marrying, then he will do it despite knowing he will be making his wife miserable. The fact that half of all youth suicides are gay boys is directly attributable to religious disinformation and hate campaigns. No other group or organisation disseminates homophobia, yet religious organisations are exempt from antidiscrimination laws! And it doesn’t end with youth. Older men too, are suiciding because they can't live with the hatred and fear. A dozen hate murders and about ten thousand cases of GBH against gays are recorded in Australia every year – all due to religious vilification. It is murder by remote control – murder of the body and murder of the joy in living. A few years ago my partner and I were harassed for months by youths at the instigation of religious people nearby. We are both well educated, had held responsible jobs, and yet it became intolerable. We had to sell up and go to another town where we have become social recluses because of the psychological harm that harassment did. Until then we’d been sociable and had plenty of friends. But the lies continue. We have just celebrated our 41st anniversary, yet we are told by the government that our love is not real. It is somehow perverted – not worthy of protection. We are not worthy of equality before the law, We now avoid contact with humans as much as possible. The harm of religious inspired homophobia is real and horrible.

Ybgirp

The Bible is literature, human in origin and records nearly a thousand years of humanity struggling to find meaning in life. It is religious because it comes from a time when that was pretty much the only world view available to people to express these things. Even the Greek philosophers wrote out of a particular religious/theistic culture and they were certainly not homophobic.
I do agree with you that the fundamentalist and evengelical sub-cultures within Christianity cause a great deal of damage.. not just by their homophpobia. The fact that they have corrupted the Bible by their shallow, cultic/dogmatic interpretation is not sufficient evidence to justify your claim that the Bible is of no value. There is still value in reading Shakespeare, Plato, Homer etc etc and there is still value in reading the Bible as literature. There is real danger in leaving the Bible to the fundamentalists. It needs intelligent, critical reading that exposes the flaws in contemporary contemporary fundamentalist and evangelical cults. I wonder if your dismissal of the Bible is any less shallow than their dogmatic literalism.

Robert, yes lots of sad stories of intolerance out there.

I happen to believe that sexuality is hard wired, various hormones
affect the development of the foetus at the time of sexualisation
of the brain. We all start as females, it goes from there.

Amongst all this religous intolerance, there are also some amusing
ones. Clearly alot of religious folks are in denial about their
own sexuality and would like to wish it away, but it doesent work
like that.

I remember reading the story of a couple of newly born Xtians,
(hey I was born right the first time :) ) who started a group
to help assist gay Xtians become hetero. They had all these
so called good intentions, but eventually ran off together as
one happy couple :)

Deny the laws of nature at your peril!