Two great post Ho Hum. The reality is the idea of religious Government has little real support in the Middle East about as much as it has in the West. There are some parts of the US were it coming pretty close in action. Most peoples in the just want good government and to feel that they have some control over their lives.

Coach nice to see you see live if that wonderful land of unreality called religious blindness. Christians didn't invent free government in fact just the opposite. And as for the American constitution it was written by a bunch of people that were products of their day. Many of them were not very religious and some were not Christians. Also need I point out again that the "All men born free" didn't actually include all men and no women for that matter. Much of that was put in by those nasty godless Liberals.

A very important essay!

Regading Jews...and even Christians, specifically in 3 places.

1/ Jewsin Israel
2/ Christians in Spain
3/ Jews/Christians in non Muslim and non former Muslim lands.

The Quranic teaching differs for each.

Without Question, Jews and Christians in Muslims lands generally.... would be tolerated in a kind of 'softly softly genocide'. How genocide? Because they would be limited to 'biological' perpetuation, not 'evangelistic'. i.e. Those who are alive at the time of Islamic conquest, can remain alive, but cannot expand or repair Churches, build new Churches, nor can they share Christ with Muslims.
I know...I've lived under such a government in Malaysia.(though due to demographic reasons, they begrudgingly allow repair and new Churches) Such is not the case in Saudi Arabia "0" Churches.
Afghanistan...the draft consitution reflects the elements of the 'Charter of Omar' (google it)

Jews in Israel..'total destruction' or at least 'massive' destruction because:
a)They have taken "Muslim Lands" in the theological sense.
b)They are 'enemies of Islam'.

Christians in Spain. This land must be re-taken due to it having become 'Theologically' "Muslim Lands" by virtue of previous conquest.
This is at the root of the Hamas Charter also regarding Israel "Islamic Waqf"

Any non Muslim lands newly conquered, Jews and Christians are "dhimmi's"

"Muslims will rule the World" (Their words not mine)

Ho Hum... please look at this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDiC6KVBZUk
(I understand enough Arabic to know the translation is true)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19mpJRq11Hg&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXfNuDDXJ4s&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKt7J1U1Cs8

Just remember ONE thing. It is THEY who are saying these things. NOT us.

Firstly anyone who believes rulers are appointed by God, or Allah, is outside the bounds of sanity. Someone or something appoints someone as a ruler of a country. So who did Allah tell? And how? And when? Did he send an email. Or perhaps a YouTube video?

Does he use smoke signals?

Or, like all good cons, is it that one man has been told privately and he delivers the message. Does he come strolling down a mountain with a stone tablet announcing the new ruler? Having had that tablet made by the best craftsmen available.

It's pure BS.

As to the West having democracy,give me a break.

Democracy is as the author has written "by the people, for the people".

How does Peter Beattie's recent legislation fit with this? And Howard's IR laws. And staying in Iraq? And having Howard in office still for that matter?

Howard frequently says he takes the "hard" decisions which is polly talk for decisions that the majority don't want. On Howard's own words that fails the test of democracy. Winning an election does not mean you have carte blanche for every whim you have. Even Howard has said that about Beattie's legislation but he fails to see or acknowledge he does exactly the same.

Yes, we have elections, but so did Russia when there was one Party. Was that democracy?

The facts are that our pollies are not loyal to their electorates at all. And they are blatant about that. Their FIRST loyalty lies to their Party. And do remember very few governments have had 50% or more of the National vote on their own. I recall that Labor actually had 51% of the vote two elections ago but did not win. Anyone recall Joh Bjelke winning with less than 30%?

So, again, by definition we don't have democracy.

Try the US. 30% vote. How is that a democracy?

What we have is oligarchy. A form of government where we are ruled by a small, elite (in their minds) groups of old white, rich men.

Prove me wrong.

This post will lock me out for 24 hours, but I've finally found one of the most important chunks of video I saw in Sky News last year.. and we ALL need to come to grips with this...

Hopefully the AFP are watching closely for anyone turning up as an 'assylum' seeker or immigrant from this group of loonies.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7L05geznoI&mode=related&search=

Please don't accuse me of 'mossie bashing', pretty much every link here refers to 'radical'....and specifically mentions 'radicals'

It pains me to think of moderates like Fellow Human, who is a delight to know... but who (in my view) would be submerged in a sea of radicals if push came to shove. Perhaps we both would be hiding from the madmen.

SHOW ME THE MONEYYYY... or.. contextualizing. If anyone can show how 'Radical' Islamists do 'not' arise out of a broader Muslim community, I'd be very interested to see it.

RADICALIZATION....101

-The radicals come.. (from who knows where) and target young, passionate and perhaps disgruntled males.
-They expose them to any of hundreds of video's of poor muslim children or body parts....
-They blame... x y z... usually 'us', USA and their arch foe "Israel"
-They then train, develop and groom those young men for.... 'Jihad'

This is not even something that can be argued against..it is a fact.

The GOAL in every case, is not the redress of injustice...but the establishment of a Caliphate. What does that say about Wassim Douhrie and Hizb Ut Tahrir ?

If this is an oligarchy, I'll have one too please. Anything but a Caliphate or any other kind of muslim oppression and brain washing.
Whatever complaints you may have about our present laws, they are not sitting heavily on our shoulders,the only people that find them burdensome are those who do not believe in a lawful society.
We are reasonably free to do what we like within the bounds of decent behaviour.We can worship or not worship,play or not play and we dress as freely as we wish.
If this isn't true democracy-what is?

" Can we convince Islam to reject the divine right of the Caliph? "

Don't know what rubbish you guys are reading but no one in the Muslim world takes the idea of a Caliphate seriously except a small percentage of religious nutcases. Seems people in the West obsess over these things but there is no where in the world where a Caliphate is taking hold and it never will. Of coarse all the Muslim conspiracy nuts won't believe that