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The Forum > Article Comments > Democracy or the Caliphate > Comments

Democracy or the Caliphate : Comments

By David Long, published 21/8/2007

The West has chosen government of the people, by the people, for the people. Can we convince Islam to reject the divine right of the Caliph?

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The arrival of the caliphate would give no reason for wild celebrations. A rather large spike in the unemployment figure and a loss of revenue would be the first signs that the caliphate would lead us to a condign kakotopia. Some industries to close would be the club industry ($3.1 billion tax paid to NSW gov’t in 2004) with a loss of jobs (50,000 employed in horse racing industry alone in 1996, Bob Carr May 1996). Other industries would be forced to close. Even industries built around frivolous leisure pursuits would be forced to close. Anyone for tennis? Sorry, because I have no job I have no money to hire the court. I don’t think the Koran printing industry will be able to hire all those who through the arrival of the caliphate will lose their job.

Even the Olympic Games would be reduced to a meaningless carnival if in fact it could go ahead. Each team would have to have a sizeable contingent of religious police. After all we can’t have young men coming into contact with unescorted young women. Think of the consequences. And there would be no guarantee that women would be allowed to attend.
Posted by Sage, Tuesday, 21 August 2007 9:58:26 AM
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I wonder how many people really subscribe to this Caliphate idea?
And how much power to they actually have?
Perhaps this concept is just the latest weapon used by the those on the "right" in their usual fear based language of polarising binary exclusions?

For a start you cant convince "Islam" of anything. And there is no monolithic "Islamic" understanding of anything.

There are only individual people who believe various ideas etc associated with the religion of Islam. And you can only convince each such individual person one at a time of your "point of view" about any and everything---which by the way, may also be either completely wrong or only partially true.
Posted by Ho Hum, Tuesday, 21 August 2007 10:16:37 AM
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David comments:

"As every reasonable person knows that salvation can not be guaranteed only hoped for, that fact alone would be reason enough to always ask the governed for their consent."

If David had extended his research to include the Christian basis on which declarations of independence (democracies) are based on and rooted in - he would have not even entertained the possibility of any Theocratic intrusions.

I would have thought that it is because:

1) Christianity GUARANTEES eternal salvation for the believers and followers of Christ Jesus;

and because

2) the Kingdom of God is not of this world,

and

3) all are created equal,

that we should govern ourselves by ourselves.

Theocracy (Caliphate) is an Islamic concept derived of their own understanding of the alleged revelations of a despotic god they call ‘Allah’.

The bloody History of Islamic conquests must never be forgotten when determining our future.

The notion of an Islamic Caliphate must be expelled from our democratic vocabulary, of our accepted thoughts, and collective secular wisdom – if we want to “secure our rights to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness”.
Posted by coach, Tuesday, 21 August 2007 10:49:07 AM
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The idea that we're all in danger of becoming part of some pan global caliphate is about as realistic as the imposition of some pan global revival of the Holy Roman Empire.

To me the choice is increasingly becoming "Democracy or Authoritarianism". We are being told over and over again that in order to combat the terrrrrists we must give up rights (such as freedom of association and increasingly the right to a presumption of innocence).

To paraphrase a Vietnam general we are being told "We need to lose our rights in order to be free".
Posted by James Purser, Tuesday, 21 August 2007 11:55:49 AM
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Why should the Muslim give up on the idea of a Caliphate. In two to three generations they will be able to do what they like. The great thing about democracy is if your the majority you can change it to a Caliphate
Posted by aqvarivs, Tuesday, 21 August 2007 12:04:04 PM
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For better or worse ALL Traditional Cultures were governed by the Wise and the Wise Elders. And there was an appreciation for the Wisdom of the Elders. Membership of the Wise was always based on a prolonged period of testing---even a life time of testing. Real demands and tests were given. Inititiations were tests of real intelligence. Sometimes failure even meant death as in the confrontation with real danger in vision quests or tests in battle.

If you passed the tests it demonstrated that you could be trusted. You were an adult---not a self indulgent adolescent any more.

We in the West have no Wisdom Culture or Wise Elders. Such concept of Wise Elders is actively discouraged. Contary to popular mythology we do have various ruling elites such as the captains of industry etc, who are almost universally bereft of Wisdom.

Who rules in the West then.

The TV created consumer "king" or every man does. The consumer "king" "educated" by the TV anti-"culture", who is "free" to indulge in any and every gross whim that pleases him. And if he becomes (inevitably) frustrated the little everyman king will become "righteously" angry. Such a wisdomless "culture" of "kingly" every-man inevitably degrades everything.

And then we all get "righteously" angry when we discover that everything has fallen apart. And we look for someone (or collectives of someones) to blame. The dreadful applied politics of scapegoating. Sacrificial victims being the order of the mob driven day.

These two essays address these issues.

http://www.dabase.org/polunity.htm
http://www.dabase.org/radicpol.htm
Posted by Ho Hum, Tuesday, 21 August 2007 12:10:01 PM
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Two great post Ho Hum. The reality is the idea of religious Government has little real support in the Middle East about as much as it has in the West. There are some parts of the US were it coming pretty close in action. Most peoples in the just want good government and to feel that they have some control over their lives.

Coach nice to see you see live if that wonderful land of unreality called religious blindness. Christians didn't invent free government in fact just the opposite. And as for the American constitution it was written by a bunch of people that were products of their day. Many of them were not very religious and some were not Christians. Also need I point out again that the "All men born free" didn't actually include all men and no women for that matter. Much of that was put in by those nasty godless Liberals.
Posted by Kenny, Tuesday, 21 August 2007 1:27:27 PM
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A very important essay!

Regading Jews...and even Christians, specifically in 3 places.

1/ Jewsin Israel
2/ Christians in Spain
3/ Jews/Christians in non Muslim and non former Muslim lands.

The Quranic teaching differs for each.

Without Question, Jews and Christians in Muslims lands generally.... would be tolerated in a kind of 'softly softly genocide'. How genocide? Because they would be limited to 'biological' perpetuation, not 'evangelistic'. i.e. Those who are alive at the time of Islamic conquest, can remain alive, but cannot expand or repair Churches, build new Churches, nor can they share Christ with Muslims.
I know...I've lived under such a government in Malaysia.(though due to demographic reasons, they begrudgingly allow repair and new Churches) Such is not the case in Saudi Arabia "0" Churches.
Afghanistan...the draft consitution reflects the elements of the 'Charter of Omar' (google it)

Jews in Israel..'total destruction' or at least 'massive' destruction because:
a)They have taken "Muslim Lands" in the theological sense.
b)They are 'enemies of Islam'.

Christians in Spain. This land must be re-taken due to it having become 'Theologically' "Muslim Lands" by virtue of previous conquest.
This is at the root of the Hamas Charter also regarding Israel "Islamic Waqf"

Any non Muslim lands newly conquered, Jews and Christians are "dhimmi's"

"Muslims will rule the World" (Their words not mine)

Ho Hum... please look at this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDiC6KVBZUk
(I understand enough Arabic to know the translation is true)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19mpJRq11Hg&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXfNuDDXJ4s&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKt7J1U1Cs8

Just remember ONE thing. It is THEY who are saying these things. NOT us.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Tuesday, 21 August 2007 1:52:58 PM
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Firstly anyone who believes rulers are appointed by God, or Allah, is outside the bounds of sanity. Someone or something appoints someone as a ruler of a country. So who did Allah tell? And how? And when? Did he send an email. Or perhaps a YouTube video?

Does he use smoke signals?

Or, like all good cons, is it that one man has been told privately and he delivers the message. Does he come strolling down a mountain with a stone tablet announcing the new ruler? Having had that tablet made by the best craftsmen available.

It's pure BS.

As to the West having democracy,give me a break.

Democracy is as the author has written "by the people, for the people".

How does Peter Beattie's recent legislation fit with this? And Howard's IR laws. And staying in Iraq? And having Howard in office still for that matter?

Howard frequently says he takes the "hard" decisions which is polly talk for decisions that the majority don't want. On Howard's own words that fails the test of democracy. Winning an election does not mean you have carte blanche for every whim you have. Even Howard has said that about Beattie's legislation but he fails to see or acknowledge he does exactly the same.

Yes, we have elections, but so did Russia when there was one Party. Was that democracy?

The facts are that our pollies are not loyal to their electorates at all. And they are blatant about that. Their FIRST loyalty lies to their Party. And do remember very few governments have had 50% or more of the National vote on their own. I recall that Labor actually had 51% of the vote two elections ago but did not win. Anyone recall Joh Bjelke winning with less than 30%?

So, again, by definition we don't have democracy.

Try the US. 30% vote. How is that a democracy?

What we have is oligarchy. A form of government where we are ruled by a small, elite (in their minds) groups of old white, rich men.

Prove me wrong.
Posted by pegasus, Tuesday, 21 August 2007 2:05:03 PM
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This post will lock me out for 24 hours, but I've finally found one of the most important chunks of video I saw in Sky News last year.. and we ALL need to come to grips with this...

Hopefully the AFP are watching closely for anyone turning up as an 'assylum' seeker or immigrant from this group of loonies.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7L05geznoI&mode=related&search=

Please don't accuse me of 'mossie bashing', pretty much every link here refers to 'radical'....and specifically mentions 'radicals'

It pains me to think of moderates like Fellow Human, who is a delight to know... but who (in my view) would be submerged in a sea of radicals if push came to shove. Perhaps we both would be hiding from the madmen.

SHOW ME THE MONEYYYY... or.. contextualizing. If anyone can show how 'Radical' Islamists do 'not' arise out of a broader Muslim community, I'd be very interested to see it.

RADICALIZATION....101

-The radicals come.. (from who knows where) and target young, passionate and perhaps disgruntled males.
-They expose them to any of hundreds of video's of poor muslim children or body parts....
-They blame... x y z... usually 'us', USA and their arch foe "Israel"
-They then train, develop and groom those young men for.... 'Jihad'

This is not even something that can be argued against..it is a fact.

The GOAL in every case, is not the redress of injustice...but the establishment of a Caliphate. What does that say about Wassim Douhrie and Hizb Ut Tahrir ?
Posted by BOAZ_David, Tuesday, 21 August 2007 2:45:48 PM
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If this is an oligarchy, I'll have one too please. Anything but a Caliphate or any other kind of muslim oppression and brain washing.
Whatever complaints you may have about our present laws, they are not sitting heavily on our shoulders,the only people that find them burdensome are those who do not believe in a lawful society.
We are reasonably free to do what we like within the bounds of decent behaviour.We can worship or not worship,play or not play and we dress as freely as we wish.
If this isn't true democracy-what is?
Posted by mickijo, Tuesday, 21 August 2007 2:53:26 PM
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" Can we convince Islam to reject the divine right of the Caliph? "

Don't know what rubbish you guys are reading but no one in the Muslim world takes the idea of a Caliphate seriously except a small percentage of religious nutcases. Seems people in the West obsess over these things but there is no where in the world where a Caliphate is taking hold and it never will. Of coarse all the Muslim conspiracy nuts won't believe that
Posted by Peppy, Tuesday, 21 August 2007 4:09:34 PM
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Yes, there were 100,000 'nutcases' gathered together recently in Indonesia - the idea may not have majority support but there are enough involved for the idea to be one that needs to be watched. There are too many otherwise well educated but disaffected young people who think it would give them more power than they now have, especially in otherwise corrupt societies.
Posted by Communicat, Tuesday, 21 August 2007 4:26:08 PM
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Peppy's right. The small minority of nutters among the Muslim population who dream of a Caliphate are probably as representative of that benighted religion as the Christian frootloops, who rabbit on here endlessly about the supposed Muslim Peril, are of theirs.

Of course there are raving loonies on the fundamentalist fringes of Islam, as there clearly are in the wackier realms of Christianity, but the vast majority of adherents to both faiths tend to be harmless people who find meaning and solace from their imaginary friend in the sky.

Did anybody see Four Corners last night? I think we have far more to fear from meddling in Western politics by Christian fundies than any wacko fantasies of a revived Caliphate by a few loopy Muslim radicals.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Tuesday, 21 August 2007 4:39:05 PM
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Democracy and Islam are at cross purposes.It is freedom of thinking that has all but destroyed the Christian Church here.There is no way the Muslims will let democracy flourish.They want absolute control of our thinking because their belief system will not stand up to analysis.

How many Islamic Govts have true democracy?
Posted by Arjay, Tuesday, 21 August 2007 5:04:26 PM
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Another highly predictable "the sky is falling, the sky is falling" monologue. What are these people smoking?

If there isn't a Caliphate in Indonesia, where 86% of close to a quarter of a billion people are Muslim, why do we suddenly see a rash of scaremongering articles that seem to believe that we in Australia are suddenly in danger of becoming one?

Where is our sense of proportion?

100,000 Muslims demonstrating in Jakarta is the same as 8,000 Christians staging a rally in Sydney. They would all fit in the Domain, Portaloos and all, with room to spare. And they would probably have a speaker mouthing off about converting the heathen, or spreading the word, or testifying, or witnessing or whatever, and no-one would even notice. It wouldn't make the news in Brisbane, for sure.

But if I was a news agency that wanted my audience to believe that the Christians of Sydney were on the march, and they were targetting the souls of Islam, I'd probably make it item no.1 on Karachi TV.

The Declaration of Independence is, I notice, reluctantly pressed into service. All men equal, in 1776 in the land that slavery built? I don't think so.

Still, the article managed to get poor old Boaz frothing at the mouth again, so I guess it met its objective.
Posted by Pericles, Tuesday, 21 August 2007 5:23:56 PM
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" Democracy and Islam are at cross purposes "Posted by Arjay

Arjay,

You might have some credibility if the "Western Democracies" didn't support dicatators who kill and torture their subjects in Muslim and other lands, but as long as the West supports dictatorships when it's convenient you don't really have a leg to stand on.
Posted by Peppy, Tuesday, 21 August 2007 5:56:45 PM
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Peppy ,we only support Muslim Dictators where there is oil to be found.Bush made the mistake of getting rid of Saddham.He was the only person who could unite Iraq and bring peace to that country.Saddham only reflected the people who bred him.

The US does the dirty work of Europe,China and India by keeping the Islamic lunatics divided so they cannot hold us all to ransom.Would you like to pay $10.00 per litre for your petrol?What is the price of real poverty for the West?It is energy which under pins our living standards and China or Japan will gladly butcher a billion Islamic facists to secure their survival.
Posted by Arjay, Wednesday, 22 August 2007 12:41:45 AM
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Mr. Long,

Your views on democracy are as outdated as the idea of the Caliphate you deride. The Republic of the Founding Fathers is dead, crushed under the weight of the Oligarchy holding the true power behind our parliaments. We exercise democracy for five minutes in the polling booth, then we return to our all-consuming torpor. All we do is elect the elite we would prefer to rule (out of the two choices on offer, tossing a double-headed coin). Liberal representative democracy is designed, all the way back to the Founding Fathers you are so fond of, to divert and suppress popular rule, turning government of, for and by the people into a tragic cover story. Anyone who thinks the Bush Administration is working in the interests of the American people, rather than for their rich elite, is part of the problem.

Only the strictest of Muslims would desire the return of the Caliphate, many educated and urban Muslims would be horrified at the thought. This only becomes an attractive proposition if the other choice is greater Western imperialism and oppression. The same way we are creating terrorism by our actions around the world, we are creating the Caliphate as an option for oppressed Muslims. Respect and engagement is the best way to win over the Islamic heart and mind, not exploitation and murder. Our 'leaders', and the Caliphate of the radical Muslim have the same goal, to disempower the People and impose autocratic rule; our way is just a lot more subtle and effective. Mr. Long, you seem to be having a bet either way, supporting a corrupt and flawed 'democracy', while helping to create the Caliphate with your fear mongering.

Power is the problem, it can only safely be handled broken up into billions of little pieces so each one of us is wielding our share.

Earthrise
Posted by Earthrise, Wednesday, 22 August 2007 2:19:43 AM
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It is not a "small minority of nutters" among Muslims that causes problems today. It is Muslims. Either they teach hate and do violence (radicals) or pretend that Islam is peaceful and make excuses (the moderates).

Look at Islamic societies around the world. You see intolerance, discrimination and human rights abuse. Look at recent essays on Pakistan. Look at Iran. Look at Indonesia. Look at Arab countries. It is the same everywhere. If there are so many moderate, enlightened Muslims, where are they? In the West, of course. Yet if Islam were to dominate here, human rights and equality would be thrown out with pork. I do not trust Muslims; they are not honest about Islam. I have never found a Muslim that will be honest about the hate in the Quran, and the evil actions of their prophet. Just excuses or silence.

It is getting worse. Look at the Islamization in Turkey, Pakistan and other places. Here is a post on Egypt:
http://kalb-baladi.blogspot.com/search/label/Life%20in%20Egypt
Read the June 30 post on the Ultra Religious Invasion..

"It saddens me when I see the Egyptian society becoming a backward ultra religious male dominated and female oppressing society. I was invited to an engagement party and the scene there was horrifying:
The father of the bride borrowed his neighbour's appartment in order to seggregate men and women. The women in the girls flat and the men in the neighbour's flat." etc...

The radicalization is happening accross Europe, in the US and Australia.

You cannot be a Muslim - and democratic, liberal and for equal rights. Read the Quran. Under Islam, or in a Caliphate, non-muslims are 3rd class people and under sharia must never offend Islam or muslims.

Here is another post about a fatwa against liberal ideas:
http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/07/17/liberals-under-attack-by-fatwa/#comment-55156
Notice my (usual) comments.

Muslim must blame their problems on anybody and everybody but Islam. Things are going to get worse. Will the West take 500 years of enlightenment and throw it in the garbage because people don't want to offend a barbaric, oppressive ideology? That is the question.

Kactuz
Posted by kactuz, Wednesday, 22 August 2007 5:16:37 AM
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Thanks to Bush, Blair and Howard there will be for the first time a Shia Caliphate stretching from across the countries Iran, Iraq, Azerbaijan, Yemen, Bahrain and down to Lebanon; around the Persian Gulf, the overwhelming majority is Shiites. As soon Halliburton has milked Iraq for all its worth the US would withdraw from Iraq. The Shia majority and Iran waiting on the sideline would take over Iraq.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1983863,00.html

Democracy or the Caliphate? This question is academic for Europe because within a few generations most of Europe would become a Sunni Caliphate. The non-Muslims European (mainly the whites) population are in a steep decline whilst the Muslims are reproducing themselves at a very fast rate. Only Serbia, Russia and Israel are able to act as a bulwark against the caliphate which would seek to destroy everything non-Muslim.

The culture of Islam hating non-Muslims is embedded in the Koran and also evidenced in history. Muslim apologist and sympathisers would claim that the Koran has been misquoted but history and current affairs have proven them wrong. No Muslim, no matter how liberal, is ever going to be critical of the Koran

In other words, don’t listen to what a Muslim tells you, look at what they do to non-Muslims in a Muslim-majority country.

The following is a website tracing the how Muslims spread their religion through terror and how they threatened non-Muslims to accept Islam. The contributors to the website include professors and members of the faculty from the Universities of Stanford and Michigan (Ann Arbor), Kansas State University, Ohio State University, and the London School of Economics
http://www.historyofjihad.org/america.html?bl=showcase

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewForeignBureaus.asp?Page=/ForeignBureaus/archive/200603/FOR20060321c.html
Posted by Philip Tang, Wednesday, 22 August 2007 5:43:56 AM
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*OT* I'm afraid, but this did make me laugh out loud.

>>The father of the bride borrowed his neighbour's appartment in order to seggregate men and women. The women in the girls flat and the men in the neighbour's flat.<<

On my first visit to Sydney back in the mid-sixties, I was invited to a party in Neutral Bay. The blokes stood at one end of the room talking about footy - in which I, as a visitor, had no insight or interest - and the girls gathered at the other end, talking girl-stuff. It was utterly bizarre, and totally tribal - occasionally one of the girls would peel off to make sure her man had a fresh beer in his hand.

Tribal customs of this kind change over time, usually as the result of exposure to more civilized behaviour.
Posted by Pericles, Wednesday, 22 August 2007 10:24:22 AM
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Pericles,

Ha, ha, ha - you say?

I don't see anything funny about what is happening to women across the Muslim world.

Discrimination against women is not a 'Tribal Custom' in Islam, it is incorporated into the soul of that ideology. If you care to read the ahadith, you will see that they say women are difficient in intelligence, worth half a male, most of the people in hell are women and that women are not worthy even to lick the puss from their husband's bodies, and so on. Kind words from as religion of love and peace, or not?

Yes, things will change over time - things will get worse. They are already getting worse.
http://www.bigpharaoh.com/2005/07/page/3/
Look at the post about 'Egyptian Women Emancipation' (July 6)

Read the UN's 2002 report on the status of women in the Middle East, written by Arab experts, not Western activists. You can find it on the Internet. It talks about the increased discrimination against women and the lack of opportunities (disenfranchisement is the word they use, I believe) for women in the Arab (ie, Muslim) world. The key word is INCREASED.

Let me say this once again, in case it wasn't clear. There is nothing funny about discrimination against women. There is no humour in genital multilation. There is no honor in honor killings. There is no excuse for the way that Islam treats women. There is nothing to laugh about when the subject is oppression and inequality.

Kactuz
Posted by kactuz, Thursday, 23 August 2007 1:51:42 AM
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I wonder what possible interest many people have here in demonising Muslims. I can see you all Jew-hating in Nazi Germany, or cheering on the KKK in Alabama. What possible motive is there other than hate, if not some instinctive reflex to protect your ill-begotten lifestyle at the expense of the Other?

Why would you misrepresent Islam otherwise? It is not Islamic to honour kill, or to perform female 'circumcisions'; these are local tribal customs. The fact that they are also Muslims is irrelevant. Why are Anglo Christians murdering innocent Iraqi children, or why are Israeli Jews oppressing a whole people? Are all Christians warmongers, or all Jews stormtroopers? Please. And before you bring up the headscarf, take a look at some of my old family photos. Strict Methodist women with hair in a severe bun, neck-to-toe black dresses and harsh frowns on their faces. Not that long ago in the scheme of things.

Yes, many Islamic countries do not allow for the level of freedoms for women that we do. Neither did we 150 years ago. Are they culturally behind the West, in some ways they are. In others, we are going in totally the wrong direction, destroying our own communities, families and mental health with adolescent materialism, liberal selfishness and capitalistic greed. They don't want to be like us; I don't either. Our centuries-long imperial assault on their nations and resources has played a part in their 'backwardness', coupled with their rightful distain for our hyper-liberal/materialistic lifestyles.

If we left them alone, they would quickly have their own Reformation, democracy would grow and civil rights would be won. At the moment we have sent them into their foxholes, bunkered down against our cruise missiles and cluster bombs.

LEAVE THEM ALONE! (for all our sakes)
Posted by Earthrise, Thursday, 23 August 2007 2:33:31 AM
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I suggest researching more on the Caliphate (Khilafah in Arabic) before making such wide assumptions. Much work has been done on how a future Caliphate would function.

The following short booklet is a starter on the accountability processes within a future Caliphate. These are far superior to the Democratic system.

http://www.khilafah.com/kcom/multimedia/publications/book-accountability-in-the-khilafah.html
Posted by Ambassador, Thursday, 23 August 2007 4:45:29 AM
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Ambassador,

How do you know that a Caliphate would be superior to democracy? Democracy is real and we can test it but the Caliphate is just a theory which exists no where in the world. It's only superior on paper just like the Soviet Unions's Communist Constitution was superior on paper but a disaster in practice. Why should anyone take a risk on a dangerous theory. Face it there is no such thing as a Caliphate and there never will be. You haven't been able to convince any significant population anywhere in the world that it's worth trying. Millions of people struggle each year to reach the democracies but I don't see many people struggling to set up this idiotic Caliphate idea.
Posted by Peppy, Thursday, 23 August 2007 7:16:36 AM
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Contrary to Islamic propaganda, Islam is on the decline worldwide. The numerical growth is mostly biological and not from “conversions”.

Modern technologies, satellite TV, the internet, causes a mass exodus from Islam mainly from the educated strata.

The rest is either living in denial – greatly based on fear and ignorance of their own religion. We call them “moderates”.

The remaining group is grasping onto primitive religious practices (Salafi) resulting in opression and death.

Fundamentalist Christianity has increased in reply to the Islamic mayhem. But a return to Jesus’ teaching cannot be compared to a return to their Islamic prophet...even to the most cynical humanist atheist.

Muslims and especially Women are the victims of their own religion. Shari’a law has never worked. It is fear mongering on the behalf of Men for the benefit of men.

Look at the streets of Iran for example: prostitution, poverty, misery everywhere. BTW most converts to Christianity come from Iran. Exact figures are not possible because of obvious threats to apostates.

Secular Turkey is fighting against a return to Islamic laws – why? because they have tasted freedom (to some extent) and know what's better for Islam.

In Australia, Islamic groups are in damage control mode. They are licking their wounds caused when Australians saw for the first time the true colours of Islam.

The cry for a caliphate is not new – but it is a last resort, a safety net to contain the haemorrhage (without treating the cancer).

Full on Jihad on all fronts has simply not achieved the “Bin Ladens” dream for: World Islamisation.

Islam needs maturity where the “moderates” can finally have a voice to point out the faults of their own religion to their blindfolded fundamentalist Imams… without risking their life.

Democracy is their only avenue for free expression. Let us help them do it.

If not...Muslims will have to continue to suffer and be the plague of the world. Until Islam is finally scrutinised and it’s so called “sacred texts” exposed, the world will have to suffer.
Posted by coach, Thursday, 23 August 2007 11:20:39 AM
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I broadly agree with Coach's post, but why not also make the call to get out of Islamic countries to allow democracy to flourish? The death of democracy normally comes during 'national emergencies', when law and civil government is suspended. If we want to free Islamic countries from internal repression, we need to remove the external repression. Nothing increases the popularity of a dictator than a perceived external threat, let alone a real one. How long would the Caliphate last in societies free from imperialism, with the Internet piping freedom into every home?

Come on guys, you are demonising Islam to defend your war booty. I and others will only take you seriously when you attack the problem, not the symptom.

Earthrise.
Posted by Earthrise, Thursday, 23 August 2007 12:50:33 PM
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In the “The Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam”, Muhammad Iqbal argued for a Islamic state for Indian Muslims along the lines of a Caliphate. Colonial India was partioned along religious lines according to the wishes of the Muslims.

About a million Hindus and Sikhs were butchered by the Muslims immediately after Pakistan was founded. After killing Chrsitians, Ahmadis, and other non-Muslims, the Muslims in Pakistan turned on each other. Sunnis kill Shias and vice versa.
http://www.thepersecution.org/ai/aius1110pk.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/5413680.stm

Muslims are inspired by the Koran to perpetually fight and kill non-Muslims, as many trouble spots in different parts of the world between Islam and other faiths show the violent nature of Islam.

[Fight non-believers 9.123: O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).

Kill non-believers 4.89 : They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.]

The call for a world-wide Caliphate is an open declaration of war against non-Muslims. This time the non-Muslims are not waiting to be slaughtered, they will fight back. Be warned, Muslims are not just fighting the West, other non-Muslims all over the world are tired of putting up with Islam.
Posted by Philip Tang, Friday, 24 August 2007 4:09:38 AM
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AMBASSADOR is EVIL....... ? he refers us to a web site which basically is telling us we should all submit to an Islamic Caliphate and assures us that our rights (such as are allowed under Islam) would be protected.

HAH ! yes... like women being HALF the value of a man in court...

Ambassador.. please comment on this ?

Did you watch CNN "Gods Muslim Warriors" last night ? (They had Gods Jewish the previous night and 2night they have Gods Christians)

The Iranian women who has been a lawyer for 35 yrs and a judge and won the Nobel Prize... is only worth HALF of a man in court.

QUESTIONS..

-Is this Sharia law ? (yes)
-On what is it based ? (Hadith)
-Does this mean hadith is a foundation of Islamic law ? (yes)
-Does this mean that the other hadith can be viewed as 'authoritative' ? (yes)
-So this means the Hadith about many unsavory things like "take a young girl (down to 9 yrs age) RATHER than a mature women, so you can enjoy playing with her" (while you are 50ys + in age) is valid ? (yes)

AMBASSADOR remember how the Arabs sent back the head of the Ambassador of Genghis Khan ? I hereby send the HEAD of Sharia law back to you, in a basket, bloodied and dead.

The 'decadent' west has nothing on 'MUCH MORE decadent' Sharia law.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Friday, 24 August 2007 7:12:39 AM
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I think about ten years of a world wide caliphate would do the world wonders. A little social pruning and cleaning up the deadwood.
Posted by aqvarivs, Friday, 24 August 2007 7:28:17 AM
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