Bushbred, I am sure you are aware that the Serbs and Croats used incidents which occurred many hundreds of years ago in order to justify their actions during the Balkan wars. The ancient history of Israel and the Arabs is irrelevant, no matter who uses it. I am fully aware that some Israelis use that history as a pretext. The Arabs do likewise. It is still irrelevant.

You said “A small section of British authority foresaw the above … when the persecuted Jews mostly from Germany … requested that they permanently settle back in Jerusalem ….” By 1938 there were already more than half a million Jews living in Palestine. The British were granted a protectorate over Palestine by the League of Nations in 1922 with the express directive to create a Jewish State. In 1939 a British white paper was developed on the issue of Palestine which was overwhelmingly considered to be a bad deal for the Jews. However the Arab delegations wouldn’t even meet to discuss the division of Palestine into two states. They decided they were going to keep the lot.

You have neglected to mention that the Arabs started the 1948, 1967 and 1973 wars with the intention of destroying the Israeli state and driving the Jews into the sea. ( A goal you seem to be implying is a worthy one). Israel kept the land that it won from the Arabs in 1967 mostly to use as a bargaining chip for peace. As you know when Egypt normalised its relations with Israel they returned the Sinai.

Funnily enough no one wanted to see wholesale slaughter of Jews in 1948 so is it all that surprising that the US helped the Israelis with the arms they needed to defend themselves.

Whatever you want to pretend about Iran, two things are clear. Iran is heavily involved in the war in Iraq for its strategic benefit. Iran is working towards an Arab Bomb and given the bloodcurdling rhetoric coming for its leaders, will use it on Israel the first chance they get

Cont’
Bushbred

You said “people undemocratically letting a … religious doctrine upset the democratic balance of power” Democracy? In the Middle East? There is no such thing. Israel’s enemies aren’t democratic. You think Hamas are democrats. By the way are you suggesting that there is no room for Jews in the Middle East?

You said ”… political problems should be handled by a strong … democratic United Nations” The UN is a farce mostly because of the Security Council. How is it democratic if it takes only one members' veto to terminate an otherwise majority supported resolution? Also, giving non democratic countries a seat on the security council was an unfortunate mistake. I believe that a UN style body could be very useful in the modern world, but the current one sadly does not work.

Xoddam

you said “David/Boaz, my colours are indeed nailed to the mast: I think democracies should be held to acount for their crimes of war!” This is precisely my point, what about Palestinian war crimes? Don’t they need to be held to account?

You said ” It irks me, though, that the names of Palestinian victims are rarely mentioned in English” The names of the victims of the Palestinian suicide bombers aren’t exactly household names either.

You said” Israeli soldiers go in for "extreme behaviour" just as vile as that of the Palestinian militants -- taking pot-shots at children and peace activists with rubber (-coated steel) bullets, for instance” Mate in what world is it that shooting rubber bullets ( almost always non lethal ) at people in any way compares with detonating a bomb on a schoolbus? The difference is Israeli soldiers who are caught deliberately killing or maiming Palestinian civilians are punished under the law. I know that they aren’t always caught. But Palestinian who kill civilians are lauded, even revered.

I’ll put it another way. It is the Israeli policy to avoid civilian casualties wherever possible. Again it doesn’t always work that way. But it is the policy of Hamas and Fatah etc. to kill as many civilians as they possibly can

Hi People... well between Xoddams (gracious) reply, and Paul L's expansion on the issue, we are gaining a much more balanced picture of things.

FRANK.. yes, I did select David Hicks mainly because I don't see how 'our' law can apply to him when he is picked up in a war zone by others, and handed to others to be dealt with. Our law simply does not apply, so, why do we wring our hands about 'fair trial'....in my view, he is a 'POW' indefinitely until the cessation of hostilities.

I question the growing idea that Jews were more harshly treated under 'Christian' power structures than Islamic, I won't 'deny' it, I just don't know.. from what I read, it seems both the Islamic and Christendom streams of history have had their anti semitic moments.

The worst anti Jewish propoganda the 'Protocals of Zion' emerged from the atheist Stalinist and Nazi mobs.

On the subject of "Tolerance" generally, we just need to learn ONE major lesson. "Do not tolerate INtolerance", because most of the crys and wails against 'intolerance' comes from the most rabidly INtolerant mobs around like the Marxists, Greens, Democrats, Paedophiles and other socio/political rabble. (I wonder of people read this far :)

Yes, I believe Palestinian militants should also be held to account for their crimes. The Palestinian "state" is not a functional one and cannot be held to the standards of a democracy; despite "free-and-fair" elections the parties are closer to demagogic paramilitary organisations than functioning wheels of a democratic polity.

I have no respect for Hamas' stated policy at all and, while I admired PLO/Fatah for its tenacity, the militant tail always wagged the political dog -- unlike the comparable ANC, whose paramilitary wing sabotaged inanimate infrastructure. I doubt Fatah policy was ever "to kill as many civilians as possible".

It would be a bad joke to suggest that Palestine could be held accountable when, as soon as elections are over, its leaders are imprisoned. Not that those arrested didn't deserve to be, but there's a double standard that points up clearly who really holds the reins of power. Other countries have been known to elect war criminals to lead them!

"Rarely lethal" when compared with the regular lead type, rubber bullets leave their "rare" victims are just as dead. Many others are left permanently maimed or brain-damaged. Firing on children in the street from a watchtower *is* as vile as blowing yourself up on a schoolbus.

It's not true that Israeli soldiers are "invariably" prosecuted for targeting civlians -- as in any army there is a strong loyalty to the corps. Official investigations more often than not exonerate not only the chain of command but even the individual who pulled the trigger (or drove the bulldozer). Some soldiers have been prosecuted for clear violations of orders. Yet the "targeted assassination" project of 2003 coincided with the "accidental" deaths of numerous inconvenient bystanders. Who's to say those soldiers weren't following orders from the very top?

BOAZ_David: The _Protocols of the Elders of Zion_ was trumped up in France in the 1890s. No Nazis or Stalinists involved, though the author may have been Russian. It was largely plagiarised from Maurice Joly's philosophical 1864 satire _Dialogue in Hell Between Machiavelli and Montesquieu_ which was anti-Napoleonic, not remotely anti-semitic.

Paull, there is a scientific thesis based on the Concept of a peaceful balance of power, which suggests that if one of the adversaries is allowed to be heavily armed and the other not, the other adversary must be armed similarly, epecially in the dangerous situation of nuclear weaponry.

So we have Israel and Iran, Paull, and do you really expect Iran to keep quiet with Israel not only with the most modern atomic weaponry, but also with the US behind her?

PS Might pay you to read a few books on power balance matey, plenty in the universities. Hop in before Howard prunes down the Humanities.

BushBred, I am well aware of the theory of MAD. It relies upon both antagonists desire to continue living and prospering. I am not so sure that the Ayatollahs of this world really qualify on that basis.

Iran would be in no danger from the US and Israel if it wasn’t 1. supporting Hezbollah 2. chasing nuclear weapons. I can’t believe that you think Iran is a responsible member of the global community.

Ayatollah Khomeini, quoted in an 11th-grade Iranian schoolbook, is revealing. "I am decisively announcing to the whole world that if the world-devourers [i.e., infidel powers] wish to stand against our religion, we will stand against their whole world and will not cease until the annihilation of all them. Either we all become free, or we will go to the greater freedom which is martyrdom. Either we shake one another's hands in joy at the victory of Islam in the world, or all of us will turn to eternal life and martyrdom. In both cases, victory and success are ours."

Ahmedinejhad said “Our dear Imam (Ayatollah Khomeini) said that the occupying regime must be wiped off the map and this was a very wise statement. We cannot compromise over the issue of Palestine. Is it possible to create a new front in the heart of an old front This would be a defeat and whoever accepts the legitimacy of this regime has in fact, signed the defeat of the Islamic world. Our dear Imam targeted the heart of the world oppressor in his struggle, meaning the occupying regime. I have no doubt that the new wave that has started in Palestine, and we witness it in the Islamic world too, will eliminate this disgraceful stain from the Islamic world."

These are the people you think should have the bomb.

PS might pay you to remember your living in the real world where theory is usually redundant. I already have a background in the humanities and I swallowed all the bs the far lefties fed me. I woke up when I made it into the real world