Boazy: " cannot imagine myself standing up in Tehran and glorifying 'The Great Satan' and being allowed to get away with it..can you? "

Hell, Boazy - you've fantasized in this forum numerous times about doing just that in Melbourne, but you haven't seemed to be quite able to actually do it.

I reckon you'd get a similar reaction in Tehran to what you'd get in Melbourne - i.e. as some kind of religous loony who isn't worth bothering with. But that's why you've never actually done it, isn't it?

FrankGol, is it possible for you to engage in a rational debate about multiculturalism without throwing around irrelevant and thinly-veiled accusations of racism? Your debating tactics, like your ideology, are anachronistic and intellectually mendacious. It's almost like a throwback to words such as ‘heretic’ in the 16th century - words that stopped discussion and paralyzed thinking. Words like ‘racist’ or ‘xenophobes’ stifle rational debate.

As far as I can see, there is nothing racist or xenophobic about a nation seeking to preserve its own culture and national identity, as opposed to being overwhelmed by a large deluge of disparate and even culturally antagonistic migrants. Contrary to the oft-repeated mantra, Australia does have its own culture, traditions and history. Is self-preservation racism? What makes its noble for non-Western peoples to defend their culture, but racist for Australians to defend theirs? Or is Australian culture somehow less legitimate simply because Australia was founded by Europeans and not their myriad poor brothers and sisters from the Third World?

As for the immigration and multiculturalism, the two issues are intrinsically linked. Immigration is the oxygen that feeds the fires of multiculturalism. In previous times, Federal immigration policy was formulated in a way that took into account our nation's cultural absorptive capacity. But then along came the doctrine of multiculturalism, and suddenly such considerations were no longer considered relevant. Multiculturalism has allowed governments to adopt a laissez-faire approach to immigration in order to meet the rapacious demands of big business, irrespective of the social and cultural consequences.

Both major political parties support high immigration and both support, to varying degrees, a policy of multiculturalism, or at least, the celebration of "diversity". Mr. Howard, for example, may talk tough on immigration, but in reality, his government has opened the floodgates to the highest continuous rates of immigration the country has ever seen. With both parties adopting almost identical market-driven positions on such issues, what democratic choice does the Australian public actually have?

Yvonne

At the risk of sounding churlish, perhaps you should ease off worshiping at the altar of the migrant for a while. If migrants are unprepared to detach themselves from their cultural homelands, then perhaps it is best they remain in their homelands.

Like Canada, Australia is a relatively "successful" multicultural nation only because it has a historically weak national identity. According to the multiculturalist interpretation of Australian history, this country was nothing more than a racist, Anglophilic, stagnant cultural wasteland until the holy doctrine of multiculturalism liberated us from the tyranny of homogeneity.

More assertive, well-defined nations would not have tolerated such a divisive trojan horse like multiculturalism to fester within their midst.

You claim: "Assimilation is pretty well impossible for anybody who comes here as an adult or an older child."

My father and grandparents emigrated to Australia from Central Europe back in the 1960s and managed to assimilate. And you know what? They became better, more participatory Australian citizens for it. They came here for a new life in a new country, not to recreate the old country in order to keeping living their old lives.

"Australia, by its very nature, has always been a multicultural nation. The last census supports this."

Australia was no more "multicultural" than Finland or China prior to the introduction of multiculturalism as an official policy.

Furthermore, the "we've always been multicultural" fallacy mirrors the "nation of immigrants" mantra. It's a circular argument. Because we are a nation of immigrants, we have to allow for massive immigration which, in turn, makes us a nation of immigrants. Hence a logical fallacy. Hardly a rational argument for either multiculturalism or mass immigration.

Australia's immigration-driven "multicultural" demographic transformation is the result of public policy, not a natural phenomenon.

"Many cultures are identified in name by a nation, but it denotes a culture not the political entity of a nation."

A nation is more than just a geographical entity. It is a sovereign structure that is the political expression of a specific ethnic or cultural group. That is why, historically, multicultural states are an aberration.

Oh Apostle of MC.. Yvonne :)

mate.. you said: "and to which we swore our allegiance"

Then, you go on with explaining how migrants cannot assimilate as adults.

ALLIEGANCE.
Firstly.. yes "Alliegance" what do you make that Sheikh who basically draws a dividing line between 'Shia Muslims' in Australia and the rest of us, who condemn Hezbollah. Our government policy is the condemnation of Hezbollah as 'terrorists' (I prefer the term 'enemy' myself) yet this moron is yelling how he and his kind love them.
"We love them..print that"! he said.

I would LOVE to have the chance to discuss that position with that Sheikh in person.

ASSIMILATION- its a matter of degree. As a Greek born migrant told me at a picnic ground "I am not yet Aussie, but my children will be much more" and so on.. He sang the praises of Australia as the most tolerant country in the world. I myself found it possible to assimilate to Asian culture within 8 yrs or so, not 100% but heading in the right direction.

So, we don't expect migrants to suddenly slap on a slouch hat and sing Waltzing Matilda in a broad aussie accent, but we DO expect them to head in that direction, rather than falling into the aspect of culture shock which has negative results such as:
1/ Rejection of the new Culture.
2/ Glorifying of the old Culture.
3/ Limiting ones social contact to those of their own ethnicity/religiosity.

Government policy should be aimed at and focused on facilitating the assimilation we all need to reduce social conflict and friction.
Terms like 'Multi' culturalism do not help that process. "Citizenship" certainly does.

Oligarch and Boazy,

I'm a migrant, but probably one of a later generation than Boazy's 'Greek' and certainly later than Oligarch’s family. Therefore not nearly as polite about accepting unreasonable expectations or comments from fellow citizens.

Unlike those lucky enough to be born here, I and the vast majority of migrants, made a conscious decision about becoming Australian. Absolutely and categorically NO WAY would I accept that I’m not ‘quite’ Aussie. NO WAY would I accept that somehow I cannot participate vigorously in this democracy. I am fully Australian, funny accent and all. I will not let you marginalize me, because you can pick me.

How very sad for a Greek migrant to say 'I'm not yet Aussie, but my children will be.' That line alone underscores what I said in my last post. He is not 'Aussie' yet precisely because of my point about assimilation and he obviously has been made aware of his lack of ‘unaustralianess’ on many an occasion. You wouldn’t let him forget either would you Boazy?

A new citizen swears allegiance to the Nation and to her laws. Not to becoming a clone of Boazy or to becoming ‘not yet an Aussie, but my children will be’. What pitiful crap. How dare you demand loyalty from a ‘not yet Aussie’?

On the issue of culture and the ‘newness’ of Australian culture. The ONLY people who keep on and on and on about this are actually Australian born Aussies. A culture is more than a combination of old buildings, similar faces and habits. It irks me boundlessly how some seem to think that Aussie culture and identity are so new and so fragile that it must be protected and guarded. It survived some of you lot who are pretty lacking on some quintessential Aussie values and will continue to do so.

You are the ones who do not believe that Aussie culture and values are real enough or robust enough. Not immigrants.

And no, none of you can tell me ‘to go back home’. This is my home

Yeah, “multiculturalism” is as much dirty word as “sink” itself: it does not matter how it sounds, it’s a matter how it is used to.