Julie, if you wish to embrace a woman exposed as an immigration fraud, be my guest. I interviewed Hirsi Ali, and I could tell she knew next to nothing about the societies she was condemning. She reminded me of Margaret Marcus, an ex-Jew who converted to Islam, moved to Pakistan and became a darling of the lunar-Right groups for her attacks on Judaism and American society. Should I be relying on Marcus for my information on Judaism and America?

The woman's back in America now and this seems to be the umpteenth article on her. Boy howdy! And predictably, there'll be a bunch of responses to this article railing against Islam in colourful but often fictional terms.

Are there any other feminists to critique? Are there any other religions apart from Islam to rant about? How about Hinduism and the condition of women under that religion? I haven't seen much about that lately.

Julie Szego is being quite precious in her reply. If she'd read my article more closely, she'd realise that it was addressed to all Hirsi Ali's mainstream media defenders. Many of the statements she's taken personally are in fact general statements about the three columnists, and more particularly Albrechtsen and Devine. I will confess I found her piece somewhat emotive and poorly argued.

In terms of the responses from the secular left, I was referring to her failure to cite any Australian examples. It's clear that the article refers to the Australian debate. She implied that people like Buruma had their antipodean counterparts, but neglected to explain who those people might be.

Andrew West's piece in New Matilda appeared after my article was written.

I'd also note that The Age was approached about carrying a reply to Szego's piece and we were informed that as far as the paper was concerned, the "debate was closed". That rule obviously doesn't apply to Ms Szego. So I find this claim rather ironic in the circumstances:

"Actually I wonder whether Bahnisch, clearly wounded by the unflattering passing reference to his site (what quaint reverence for the power of old media!) even read my piece in its entirety."

Mark Bahnisch

Islam is still enjoying a "religious" immunity status - when clearly ((it) has always been a Political/social ideology geared to reverse the train of human progress.

Islam is based on the military conquests and atrocities of a megalomaniac self-proclaimed prophet in the desert of Arabia.

Islam has no legitimate connections with Christianity or with Judaism. But how many people take the time to understand that and to study some historical and geographical facts?

No one dared to check Mohammad’s credentials then; those who did were slaughtered as they still are now.

And as a consequence, we are now faced with a worldwide problem of cataclysmic proportion.

No one will be spared from the tentacles of Islam.

Islam is undeniably "a cult gone wild".

Ms Hirsi Ali's mission is to bring Islam to a civilized world arena where open debates and true enquiries could take place – without the fear of barbaric retaliation, customary assassinations and honour killings.

FGM is NOT her main concern with Islam – BUT one side effect of centuries of unchecked patriarchal and masochistic tribal opression.

However, EXPOsing Islam itself has become her (remaining) life’s purpose - a point the religious-challenged lefties cannot comprehend.

Islam should not be treated as a religion any longer. It is a cultic way of life which only claims to legitimacy is its massive numerical and geographical explosion.

Any criticism against Islam is taken as anti-social racism by the left, and a death threat from Islamic leaders.

These lefties would much rather discuss FGM than try to understand the real threat of Islam to our civilized world.

It turns out I'm right on the money. Who would have thought? Oh well, I suppose blathering about Islam being a threat to the civilised world makes a change from the Jews. But what about the Tibetans? They've flown right under the radar. You've got to watch them or before you know it we'll all be drinking yak milk.

More responses to Ms Szego here:

http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/06/21/quaint-reverence-for-the-power-of-old-media/

Julie,

I read the Hirsi Ali's book.
I sympathise to what happened to her and I can't imagine a father doing that to his daughters (I have two).

Having said that, I agree with Irfan's comment since she seemed to have blurred the line between whats criticims for Islam as a faith, and criticism to her culture, and criticism to herself for not standing up for her views. She looked like someone who is ok to be pushed around all the time by everyone.

The difference between a critic and a cheer leader becomes obvious when you watch media like like BBC world: there is cheer leading or anti but unemotional factual criticsim to help the author clarify his/her thoughts and message.

Back to Ali's book, you can see the interview by the BBC world and the comments from somali female citizens.

Peace,

Look, it's very simple. Why do the Left sympathise with terrorists? Because "my enemy's enemy is my friend".

Why do they loathe Hirsi Ali, who conservatives have found common cause with? Because "my enemy's friend is my enemy".

Yes, they really are that simple-minded and morally bankrupt.

GRN.. it would certainly appear as you described it. "My enemies friend is my enemy" etc.

Hirsi Ali does not matter. She symbolizes something far bigger than herself.

What I find outrageous, is that FH and IRF seek to discredit Ali the 'person' in order to discredit what she stands for in regard to Islamic practice. RATHER...than condemning the fact that she is in need of 24/7 security guards to protect her from... Muslims wishing to murder her!

Such a condemnation would have been MUCH more appropriate.

Yes, she IS a political football, and the various sides are trying to extract the nth degree of debating/political points from all that she is. But I suggest it is her choice to take on that role.

The author also mentioned:

"the left's embrace of cultural relativism over universal human rights."

The Left are just being expedient and opportunistic, by using any means to their utopian (fantasy Island) end. The Right, presumably represented by the 'Universal human rights' thing, are also in a similiarly over optimistic dreamland, and BOTH of these approaches to life are flawed and empty. There is a 3rd and 4th(possibly more) approach to how we organize ourselves in human society.

THEOCRACY. Hizb Ut Tahrir,HAMAS and others, would have us believe that an Islamic state is the way to go, where dissenters who either change their faith or criticize the founder are executed outright.

DEMOCRACY preserved and guided by the JudaoChristian ethic. (or, by whichever social force has the loudest longest voice)

Sadly, if sufficient people are attracted to the 'Theocratic' approach, and arm themselves, they don't need a vote to take power.
We would all do well, to arm ourselves with some truth, and administer ourselves a wake_up call.

PS. HAMAS are now declaring an 'Islamic State' in Gaza. I never saw THAT coming.....

Mark Bahnisch

The "secular left" in Australia, as the true believers of cultural relativism and multiculturalism, on the issue of Islam, are similar as the Catholic Church is on the issue of abortion. With the zealotry of their multiculturalism they support the most odious and barbaric practices of Islam, by being SILENT about them.

To ask therefore of Szego, as you do, to cite "antipodean counterparts" of Buruma before she could condemn the secular left for defending these practices of Islam, is like asking someone to cite INDIVIDUAL catholics who support abortion before one could condemn the Catholic Church for its primitive anti-scientific stand.

With such logic, Plato would never allow you to enter his academy.

See Owl Of Minerva for more-http://kotzabasis.bravejournal.com

MARK BANISCH

The secular left in Australia, as the true believers of cultural relativism and multiculturalism support the most odious and barbaric practices of Islam, by being SILENT about them.

To ask of Szego, as you do, to "çite antipodean counterparts" of Buruma before she could condemn the secular left of defending these practices, is like asking someone to cite INDIVIDUAL members of the Catholic Church who are AGAINST abortion before one could condemn the Church, which in toto is against abortion, for its anti-scientific stand.

With such logic, Plato would never allow you to enter his academy.

'While certainly fervent in her atheism, she's not out to convert. She wants to see Islam's God tamed by reason and banished to the private sphere, that's all. She wants a Muslim Voltaire, a Muslim Madonna singing Like A Prayer and a Muslim take on Mohammed in the spirit of Monty Python's Life of Brian. Nothing unreasonable about any of this, I'm sure you'd agree.'

Brilliant. I love Monty Python's 'Life of Brian'!

Perhaps we could have the 'Life of Mo' as a sequel.

Actually, I think that the "Always look on the bright side of life" song would work really well for the Banu Qurayza slaughter scene. You know, the one where several hundred Jewish prisoners get decapitated and their wives sold off into slavery.

Mind you, there is a happy ending which could spoil the effect. Mo did manage to keep the lovely "Rayhana" for himself as a concubine. Well, he had to do something. Her husband was quite dead. I hope the loving couple at least waited till he was cold....

"Always look on the bright side of life..."

Boaz,
“ What I find outrageous, is that FH and IRF seek to discredit Ali the 'person' in order to discredit what she stands for in regard to Islamic practice RATHER...than condemning the fact that she is in need of 24/7 security guards to protect her from..”

I sympathise with her freedom to express herself while stand by my comment above. The problem is this: anyone who ever alienated a large group is likely to have few death threats and abuses. Mel Gibson is a recent example re his movie and alcoholic outburst. Its usually used as a marketing tool to sell more tickets, books, etc..25 years on, salman rushdie and his death threats are still there selling more books. I support and sympathise with freedom of expression, freedom of choice and constructive criticism. I don’t sympathise with stupidity.

On the intellectual level, there is nothing there to discredit. Her recent actions discredited her as an intellect. Just watch the BBC world interviews. For some reason few people in the Aussie media like to market discredited European left-overs as cutting edge intellects.

“Hizb Ut Tahrir” there is probably about 200-300 followers who believe the Hiz Ut Tahrir ideals and they are mostly teenage arabs. How can that be a reflective sample of Muslims in Australia Boaz?
Let me guess: you studied drama at school.

“Democracy preserved and guided by the Judo-Christian”

No one can explain what’s the meaning of ‘Judo-Christian” not even the yanks who came up with it. Stick with the next wave: something more catchy like islamoBuddism, Orthodox Atheism, Shiaa Mormons, : -)
I bet you are fun as a dinner guest, are you allergic to Lamb or halal food?

Peace,

Yep. Here we are.
Pamela Bone's replacement at the newspaper best identified with the government slander of aboriginals locally and more to the point, the obnoxious Jewish lobby that thrives off mudslinging against Islam.
And in this context, we see the real reasons for the promotion of yet another "safe" conservative "lip gloss feminist", Hirsuit Ali. She is just one element, admittedly telegenic and attractive to semi-literate tory middle class women, nonetheless of a wider propaganda campaign conducted for the takeover of the middle east and its oil by an alliance of Israelists and US neo-con big business.
To acheive the discrediting of Islam and thus mid-eastern resistance to Western domination, the old conflation of African tribalism as universal Muslim practice is trotted out, yet again.
Yet had the Islamic world been invited into the modern world after ww2 instead of being exploited and impoverished for the most selfish of reasons involving personal gain by the west, the older and more conservative traits would have perchance dissolved. Rather, driven and reinforced under stress of constant war, humiliation and poverty the old tribal thinking has taken hold nad become the mideastern version of hansonism,which we know is also driven out of fear created by destructive "change".
Clearly Szego is a modern Goebbelsian. Its just that her victims are the "Ewige" Muslims, the modern victims, rather than the "Ewige Juden" of an earlier era.
I loath the Jewish lobby and the Western propaganda tabloid press, and their cowardice and lies, fed through their sociopathic stooges.

About immigration fraud... Ali Hirsi is just being honest.

Perhaps Muslims here should consider a 12May1998 BBC report 'Marriages made for money' about sham weddings used by immigrants to enter England. There is also a 7February1999 Guardian article called "Silence of the imams, while another child dies" how young Muslim girls are sent back to Pakistan and basically auctioned to husbands who marry them to get to England.

The infamous Jyllandsposten has a 19April2005 article tracking 321 asylumseekers (for 'persecution’) in Denmark since 1990. 312 of them had returned to vacation or get married, 238 of them were on welfare, 135 were convicted of crimes, of their 110 children 62 been convicted of crimes. Family reunification statistics were not recorded but…

A Dutch group, Advisory Committee on Aliens Affairs (ACVZ), has a study 'Left behind against their will' about abandoned women are taken from Europe and left in Morroco, Turkey, Egypt, Pakistan and Iran , as their husbands often find and bring in replacements.
Norwegian blogger 'Oslo Girl' wrote about the abuse of asylum rules and the 'disturbingly lenient family reunion laws' among certain (?) communities. In Sweden, asylum and chain-immigration have moved this country to the edge of civil unrest. Do a search for 'Malvo, rape, immigration' on Internet if you don't believe me.

The abuse of the asylum laws by immigrants in Europe, both legal and illegal - is wellknown. Immigrants even admit they lied to gain asylum. The best studies were done in Denmark, leading to the toughest immigration/integration policies in Europe. Most countries ignore the problem.

Ali Hirsi was honest, yet people here call her a fraud because she told the truth, which is more than I can say about people that love and respect Islam’s prophet. I wonder if I will ever see the day a Muslim is honest about the hate and violence in the Quran, and the vile things done by Mohammad as recorded in Islam’s own writings. Oh yes, about Rushdie… Why don’t Muslims denounce Tabari, the great Muslim writer? He, not Rushdie, reported the matter of the Satanic Verses.

Kactuz

feminists *do* protest loudly against female genital mutilation. western feminists work together with feminists within the relevant culture to bring an end to this misogynist practice. feminists *do* work solidly against (dis)honour killings. western feminists work together with feminists within the relevant culture to bring an end to this misogynist practice.

odd, the tendency within the media to assert what feminists do or don't do (mostly an assertion as to the latter) vis-a-vis issues relating to culturally-backed misogyny. i am bound to ask with whom do they speak and whom do they observe in this 'all-seeing' contention that 'feminists don't' abhor, and together with their feminist sisters from whatever cultural background, speak out against violence against women and misogynist practices wherever they occur, and within whatever culture. we do - abhor, speak out against, support and work together with our feminist sisters on this as on other issues - in *all* cultures.

note (for the author of the article) the netherlands labor party is not a feminist organisation nor under the control of, or representing, feminists. contrary to the implication of the article, feminists in the netherlands have a huge commitment, in time, effort, resources, housing etc and efforts for institutional change, in respect of supporting and providing refuge for women pursued by men intent on (dis)honour killings.

Kaktuz,

"Ali Hirsi was honest, yet people here call her a fraud because she told the truth"

Please watch this TV interview and tell us again she is 'honest and truthful'
** Former Dutch MP Ayaan Hirsi Ali **
Caught up in a row over her Dutch citizenship, Somali-born former Dutch MP Ayaan Hirsi Ali has left the Netherlands.
< http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediaselector/check/player/nol/newsid_5160000/newsid_5167300?redirect=5167376.stm&news=1&nbwm=1&nbram=1&bbram=1&bbwm=1 >
As for your comment re Tabari, it took you two years to agree with my comment below :-).
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4133#31117

Peace,

Fellow Human,
I've just watched the BBC news article you provided a link for. If anything I am now more impressed with Ali Hirsi Hasaan, than I was after reading her book 'The Infidel'. Your contention that she is a liar and therefore nothing she says is valid is fatuous. I have enough compassion to understand why someone might lie in order to escape an arranged marriage. I don’t think that these lies in any way detract from her central message that Islam is stuck in the dark ages and needs to be reformed. The BBC interviewer was unfair in pretending that Ali would have been safe in Kenya or in Germany, as the large Somali communities there surely have seen her and reported this to her father or proposed husband. Because you have no answer to her legitimate points you attack her personally

As for Fun Guy, you have the temerity to call Ali Hirsi Hasaan a lip gloss feminist. Have you read her book or do you believe that because she lied on her immigration application nothing she says is valid. This courageous woman suffers real death threats, one staked through the chest of a colleague, in order to bring her message to those most in need. I sincerely doubt you have had to suffer through anything like what Ali had to endure, genital mutilation, death threats, exile from her family, her sisters suicide etc.
I am not of any faith, have no Jewish ancestry and I don’t read the tabloid press. How then has this supposed Zionist/Capitalist/Religious conspiracy influence me. Resort to conspiracy theories rather than debating ideas and you lose credibility.