GZ Tan.

Yeah. There's bad muslim regimes. But instead of saying that, you're saying that every muslim is some kind of deceitful monster, just out to trick westerners.

Tell me, is this true of the Bahai faith, an offshoot of Islam? I know I've never heard any complaints about the Bahai. As far as I can tell, they're more inclusive of other beliefs than christianity is.

By your argument, every muslim in muslim-dominated indonesia is also some kind of plotter.
Kind of a shock when you travel there and encounter many very liberal muslims, who certainly aren't the conservative imams of the middle east.

By your argument, the many Australian muslim women, who have grown up in this country having been here for generations, are simply plotting against their homeland. I suspect a number of posters here would like to howl and claim they're not Australian. Many of them are the same who get annoyed by requests for Christians to keep their christianity out of Australian politics.

GZ Tan, you say: "Like Muslim men, they are as hypocritical as their twisted sense of logic gets. Their deceptiveness will leave you numb."

Isn't this one hell of a generalisation for a billion people (males and females of Islam faith)?

You also said: Try to ask any Muslim woman whether she is offended if I do not extend to her courtesy of the "western" kind.
Do you know, a Muslim woman is too modest to be offended like that?

Aside from the fact that I am beginning to doubt your experience of muslim people, I suspect they would be offended by being called "deceptive" and having "twisted logic."

GZ Tan

I have held high the torch for Israel on other posts, but I am appalled by your comments. Yes there are bad Muslims just as their are bad Jews, bad Christians, bad atheists. Certainly Islam has more than its share of bad dictatorial leaders. But whatever you think of Islam, or for that matter any other religion there is deep down inside all of them a capacity of good. It is not religions which are bad, just that bad people often hijack religions for their own evil ends.

TRTL & Logic ,
Are the ‘bad’ Muslims hijacking the religion or simply following it more closely/religiously than “good” Muslims?

It seems to me that a MODERATE Muslim is merely someone who is not following Islam -TO THE LETTER. They pick & choose ‘modernise’ what they practise: They are someone whose norms/mores fit more closely with our secural western norms( & I’m not arguing whether that’s good or bad-or unique)

But that would still leave a question mark over the creed
ie the architects blueprint, as recorded in its sacred book(s).

Is it inconceivable for a creed to be innately ‘bad’?
We loudly declare Nazism to be evil
We loudly declare certain cults to be evil
Why not a major monotheistic establishment religion?

As I said before, the only rule I see is if you get enough people believing in a creed it becomes respectable & improper (in PC circles) to ridicule it.

TRTL:
It might be enlightening for you to review the history/fate of the Bahia under Islam The Islamic authorities certainly didn’t treat it very brotherly!

[PS & from my point of view this not a Christianity V's Islam boxing match -so please don't employ the "they do it too!" argument]

Logic,
Do you delve deep inside Islam to only look for what little good there is, simply ignore the bad?
Belief that religions are all alike is deeply frauded. I wouldn't trust you if I were Israeli.

TRTL,
Islam is incompatible with ideals of freedom and democracy.
Muslim women's lip-gloss and logic that hijab/burqa is freedom/liberation will not change that !!

Has it ever occurred to you:
(a) "honest" Muslims are radicals/extremists who fearlessly speak their minds, thumb their noses?
(b) moderate/liberal Muslims who always white-wash Islam are actually deceptive?

First, "honest" Hilaly causes an uproar. Next, "deceptive" moderates sooth the wound.
From Islamic viewpoints, Hilaly is correct all along !!

It's easy (but naive) to indulge in fuzzy notion that Muslims grown up here for generations are somehow fully integrated, loyal to their homeland.

Have you heard an "unspoken" ethos in Malaysia, "Muslim first, Malay second, Malaysian third"?

To believe Muslims value allegiance to Australia above Islam is dangerously misguided. If anything, generations of Muslims have produced many off-springs (Muslims first, Australians second), accelerated the tectonic swift towards an undemocratic Australia.

"Why not lead by example?" is another fallacy. You cannot set examples not regarded as acceptable value in Islam. Islam doesn't care less about your western values and will not return tolerance in kind.

Islam and freedom/democracy are simply contradiction in terms. Would you trust any moderate Muslims to safeguard freedom & democracy? This is NOT generalisation (even if it sounds like one).

In Malaysia, one Malay maid (Muslim, of course) enjoys eating pork (forbidden in Islam). When picked up by "vigilante" Muslims on the street, her masters would pass her off as an Indian Hindu. Otherwise, she would be in great strife.
Can a Muslim be more "liberal" than this?
Still, one day she might get caught red-handed. Then not only she'll stop eating pork, she may turn to fervent devotion (to atone for her "Islamic sins").

It's non-Muslims who guarded a Muslim's freedom to eat what she enjoys.
The reverse is rare as hens teeth !!

Considering Muslim atrocities I mentioned, you're tail wagging the dog.

Please don't brand me as a starry eyer idealist. I am a 65 year old engineer, you don't follow that profession for as long as I have and remain impractical.

I am well aware of some structural problems inherent within Islam. And the lack so far of a successful reform movement. But there are so many Muslims I cannot believe that amongst so many people not one of them has been influenced by the enlightenment. Look at Salmon Rushdie for example. Vicious criticisms of Islam only throw the reformists into the traditionalist camp.

After all Islam was once very enlightened compared with medieval Christianity. By modern standards it still had a way to go in giving freedom to all. But somewhere along the line it just stopped. Surely it will start to move forward again and many, perhaps the majority are already moving down that path.

Pericles.. no, they are not mutually exclusive. Symbols can have meaning attritubuted them the AT their inception, AND they can be given different or additional meaning as time goes by according to their use. Now that wasn't hard was it ?

LOGIC.. my my :) I need to send you back to religious engineering school mate. You said:

"It is not religions which are bad, just that bad people often hijack religions for their own evil ends."

If I'm not mistaken, you are Jewish. and THIS is not offensive or evil or bad ? (Quran chapter 9 verse 30)

[SHAKIR: And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away! ]

Now.. this is the core of the apple.. the kernel of the nut.. the absolute "This is where it all happens" of Islam and this verse is calling on God to specifically destroy YOU.. I repeat.. "May Allah DESTROY them" (Jews and Christians)

The religion not 'evil' ? Christianity does not call on God to destroy unbelievers. It does speak about the utlimate fate of those who elect not to become part of the elect in Christ, but the emphasis in the Bible is 'Give them every possible chance' rather than 'destroy them because they don't believe'

So, Islam is in fact an "inversion" a reciprocal.... of the true revelation of Grace. Insted of carrot then stick, its plain STICK and a rough one at that.

Have a read of chapter 23:5-6 and then tell me it is not evil. (read some Islamic commentaries and see what they reveal)

I know of people who are planning a complaint to the EOC about religious vilification in the Quran, thats how seriously 'they' consider this. One of them is Jewish, and others are Christians.