GZ Tan: "Why do I attack Islam, and Islam alone?"

Probably because you're an Islamophobic religious nutter. QED.

Now, do you have any comments on the actual article (which is about headscarves), or will you persist in trying to hijack the thread into a generic Islam-bashing exercise?

CJ Morgan,

Even your throwaway rhetorical one-liner : "I'm far more worried by men wearing ties ..." underlined a fact that you do not fear ties (or the wearing of ties) but worry about what wearers of a tie may do to you... as those may be men with power & influence and they may be subversive & nasty.

Islam has the ideology, power and influence to subvert freedom and democracy on a GLOBAL scale.

Precisely why emphasis should be on Islamic threat itself, not a headscarf or the practice of wearing one. The author has a frauded supposition to begin with.

No one here is threatened by a piece of cloth material. This discussion is drying up.

Perhaps to get a move on you can start commenting on : "The strength of a tie".

Horus:

"It seems to me that a MODERATE Muslim is merely someone who is not following Islam -TO THE LETTER. They pick & choose ‘modernise’ what they practise: They are someone whose norms/mores fit more closely with our secural western norms( & I’m not arguing whether that’s good or bad-or unique)"

To rebut this point, I say that all civilised religions operating within the modern world don't follow their religion to the letter.

Christians don't stone witches any more. In India, the more ghoulish practices of hinduism are restricted to the rural villages.

The idea that muslims are bad because their religion is bad hinges on the idea that all 'true' followers must adhere to the religion precisely.

The other religions have crafted more palatable interpretations, so why are the muslims who do this painted as not 'truly' following their faith, when the other religions are given more leeway?

Clearly, it is because there are a large number of backward muslim regimes. But to apply that to all muslims is wrong.

Yes, bahaism was oppressed by muslim regimes, but nevertheless, it is an offshoot of Islam.

My point is, it isn't right to judge all muslim people harshly, men or women, as GZ Tan seems quite prepared to do.

TRTL,

I understand your point it's wrong to judge all Muslims harshly. I do try targetting the Islamic ideology itself. And sure, most Muslims are moderates.

However the reality is not pretty, simply because Islam is incompatible with freedom & democracy - A proven fact.

If Australia population is majority Muslims, then granted that there will be NO freedom and democracy as we know it today, IRREGARDLESS of the proportion of moderate Muslims.

In other words, even if ALL Muslims are moderates, still there will be NO freedom & democracy. Slowly but surely, there will be no pop-singing, no ballet dancing, no Buddhist ceremony, no butcher selling pork meat.

Islam is uniquely different from all other religions ( Bahaism included) because Islam teaches that Koran/Quran is literally Allah's word (down to every punctuation).

Even moderate Muslims believe this fundamental idea. But being human, moderate/liberal Muslims may from time to time be "lazy" about theology, they miss prayer sessions, violate a few teachings now and then.
(You can choose to break some laws too. Just make sure not to get caught !!)

The vital consideration is, when radical Islamists come marching down your street to demand your submission to Allah... Trust me, no moderate Muslim friends of yours will come to your defense of freedom and democracy. They will only go as far as kindly persuading you that Allah is infinitely better than your "bad habits" under freedom & democracy.

It's in this context I say, you cannot trust Muslim, any Muslim, to safeguard freedom & democracy. It is non-Muslims task to safe-guard freedom & democracy for everyone (Muslims included) to enjoy.

I know, we are still a long way from a Muslim domination... But truth is truth, just keep eyes wide open to look out for a deception !!

To TurnLeftThenRight,

You criticise Christians for not following their religion to the letter. The example you use is that, "Christians don't stone witches any more."

Fair go, where in Jesus teaching did he say we were supposed to burn whiches? I remember where he said we were supposed to love others, our neighbours, our enemies, etc. I think you should read the book again of what Jesus taught.

If you are going to criticise Chritians for not following their own religion, you could probably find other examples of where they have fallen short of their calling.

I would be quite happy to say that it would be good thing to at least aim to follow Jesus' teaching to the letter. Would a 'moderate' Muslim be comfortable to say that about the teachings of Mohammed?

Fair enough, it wasn't literally, stone witches. Exodus, 22:18, though shalt not suffer a witch to live.

Pretty prescriptive, though I'm sure plenty of people have managed to craft more palatable interpretations.

Similarly, have a read of leviticus. Again, there are interpretations - DB's told us he believes this was just a guide for a particular society, not society in general - even if this is the case, it's implying tracts such as this:

20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them.

Are more pious. Basically, death to gays. There's plenty more in leviticus - basically, death to adulterers, death to people who sleep with their wives during menstruation, death to this that and the other.

Should we be taking this literally guy? No. We have more palatable interpretations.
But apparently when a muslim does that, he's no longer following their faith... so as I see it, unless Christians are putting gays to death, neither are they. Of course, there are those that argue that christians don't have to be as prescriptive, that the Qu'ran is the word of god and apparently muslims have to follow it to the letter - but guess what - muslims can follow their faith however they damn well want, and it isn't up to Christians to tell them otherwise.

Quite frankly, the rest of the us get quite sick of these faiths telling each other they're wrong. It's all ancient superstition and everybody reads what they want to see anyway.