Col Rouge, I hope you never run foul of the law - as a perpetrator, or more to the point in this debate, as a victim. It woiuld be sad, sad, sad. Especially when the crime could have been prevented.

Do you think it at all possible that some juvenile institutions actually breed adult criminals? Do you think it's possible that preventative measures where people who are risk of getting into the justice system may be helped to avoid that?

Or it it always just that some people are born with a weak backbone or haven't looked at themselves hard enough in the mirror?

Perhaps not everyone is as morally worthy and righteous as you?

Oh Frank, how nice of you to notice my post and decide to respond, just what I wanted.

Like every other person in Australia, I make my own choices. The reason I do not “fall foul of the law” is because I confine the choices I exercise to those which are legal.

I would remind you that in the instance of say, a bank robber, the “victims” are the banking staff and members of the public who happen to be in the bank when some gun tottin’, club wielding thug in a balaclava enters the bank demanding money on penalty of death and not the said thug who ends up in prison for their heinous crime. Prisoners are not the “victims”.

One wonders if, next you will be saying rapist are victims of the social system which allows Australian women to wear scant attire. Like another old humbug of the Islamic persuasion.

Frank you are taking the “victims of everything” approach, which can only work if we presume no one is responsible for anything.

As for “Do you think it at all possible that some juvenile institutions actually breed adult criminals?”
I think the output of juvenile institutions actually has a lot to do with the input to juvenile institutions and I do not think a multi-offending old lag, potentially with an axe to grind, is necessarily the most objective of commentators.

I know “staff” in both adult prisons and juvenile facilities. Their opinion is that when imprisoned, most juvenile prisoners make no effort to benefit from the opportunity, preferring to hang-tough and be complete arseholes, ensuring their transition to more incarceration in the future.

It is all about choices!

As for “Perhaps not everyone is as morally worthy and righteous as you?”

I consider myself responsible for all my actions, regardless of the circumstances. If everyone else did the same, then we would not need prisons at all.

It is pathetic to try and make this an issue of my morality and attitudes when it's REALLY about the absence of morals and loathsome attitudes in criminals

Col

So it's "all about choices", is it? Nothing else? Wish I could make life as simple as that in reality. So the child who is bashed daily and sexually assaulted throughout their institutiuonalised life simply puts that all behind them and makes choices not to be scared, not to be confused, not to be angry, not to be disturbed, not to be violent? Easy as that, eh?

I do NOT in any way condone crimes, especially violent ones like rape and assault. But I can understand why some people are not capable at particular moments in their life of making morally and legally proper decisions. Or are confused by what they have learned in institutions about what's right and what the staff did to them?

When you say "the output of juvenile institutions actually has a lot to do with the input to juvenile institutions" are you really saying that some (all) people are born evil? They go into institutions as bad people and come out worse. Maybe we should admit that juvenile institutions don't achieve much? Perhaps you think we should be identifying criminals at infancy and treating them to a course in life choices.

Is it possible that your acquaintances - “staff” in both adult prisons and juvenile facilities - are rationalising their own inadequacies or otherwise protecting their own interests when they lay all the blame on their inmates?

I am not taking the “victims of everything” approach, nor do I presume no one is responsible for anything. I just think that if we understood the environmental factors that contribute to crime we might be in a better position to prevent more of it than we do now.

I was not making this an issue of your morality and attitudes, Col. What I was doing was pointing to your possible holier-than-thou outlook which refuses to concede that some criminals are made, or made worse, in institutions.

Yes Frank it is ALL about choices

“So the child who is bashed daily and sexually assaulted throughout their institutiuonalised life simply puts that all behind them and makes choices not to be scared, not to be confused, not to be angry, not to be disturbed, not to be violent? Easy as that, eh?”

Excuses.

“But I can understand why some people are not capable at particular moments in their life of making morally and legally proper decisions.”

So “incompetence” is an excuse? Care to gives us some specific examples of what you are talking about?

“Is it possible that your acquaintances” – “are rationalising their own inadequacies or otherwise protecting their own interests”

The prison systems, both adult and juvenile, have layers of bureaucratic supervision. Whilst some individuals will make excuses, the peer and management review processes will weed them out.

“environmental factors that contribute to crime” the foremost one is

someone who is not taking responsibility for their actions.

Criminals love it when apologists say “lets look at the environmental factors”, taking criminals off the hook for their anti-social actions.

“What I was doing was pointing to your possible holier-than-thou outlook which refuses to concede that some criminals are made, or made worse, in institutions.”

So I have gone from being “righteous” to being “holier than thou” , you will have me sanctified next.

It comes back to this Frank, you cannot effectively attack me because you know I am right, you can “play attack” with terms like “holier than thou” but that is crap really and you know it.

I have not got up here and said anything which I cannot stand behind or have seen with my own eyes.

I am appalled when children are betrayed by institutions and abused by priests – yet what happened to them, did they all turn to crime because of their “environment” ? No they did not and that is the point which you cannot get past !

“Environment” is a common influence on many individuals and many remain honest despite it.

A minority of scumbags don’t

Col

Personal choice is a shallow concept. People are not born morally competent - they learn about right and wrong. Much of their learning icomes from their experiences. It's excessively harsh to say, as you do, that we're making excuses for young people when they get into trouble after a childhood of sexual abuse and violence.

You ask for specific cases. Take child refugees who, orphaned, flee a war-torn country in fear of their lives. To avoid starvation and to survive they steal food. Stealing is morally wrong and illegal. Yet would I be just making excuses if I said their circumstances explained and justified their actions?

A teenage boy who has been sexually abused by his 'carers' in an institution was fostered out, and on the first night the foster father came to his bedroom with the intention of giving him a goodnight hug. The boy in a confused panic hit the father on the head with the nearest object, a lamp, severly injuring him. Would I be simply making excuses if I said I could well understand the boy's violence? Or is he just another of your "scumbags"?

The fact that some young people who were betrayed and abused by institutions do not turn to crime is no good reason why those who do should be damned and condemned outright ("scumbags") without at least some sympathetic understanding of their actions. Courts take into account any mitigating circumstances before they issue sentences on the guilty ones.

Incidentally (you raised the topic), I don't share your faith that adult and juvenile prison systems will "weed out" corrupt officials. The level of drugs in these institutions is rising with clear evidence of "staff" involvement. In the case of children's institutions, many investigations have revealed that "carers" caught abusing children were just quietly transferred to other institutions - able to offend with a fresh lot of vulnerable victims.

Col, your cocksure certitude worries me: ...'you cannot effectively attack me because you know I am right...' I always think thoughtful uncertainty a better position to take on moral issues

Frank Gol “Personal choice is a shallow concept.”

A womans right to choose to get or remain pregnant: personal choice?
Where to mark a cross on an election ballot: personal choice?
Marrying someone: Personal Choice?
What job or career to pursue: personal choice?
Which religious creed to hold fealty to: personal choice?
Which house to buy or rent: personal choice?
How many children to father: personal choice? (I had a vasectomy after my two: my personal choice)

The above items you consider “shallow”, seems my definition of “shallow” and yours are at odds.

Whether to rob a bank: personal choice
Whether to deal drugs: personal choice
Whether to rape: personal choice
Whether to drive drunk: personal choice

oh maybe, what tie to wear with a blue suit, whether to eat Indian or Italian, that might be in the shallow range of things

The examples you post are hypothetical and incidental; no point in pursuing hypothetical’s.

Re “The level of drugs in these institutions is rising with clear evidence of "staff" involvement. “

And a most drugs are smuggled by visitors in babies nappies and ballpoint pens etc.

Cite documented evidence of “staff criminal involvement” where more senior staff have turned a blind eye, then you would have done something to substantiate your scurrilous and to date, unsubstantiated claim and I trust you will submit your evidence to the police and prisons inspectorate who are there to investigate.

As for “Col, your cocksure certitude worries me: ...'you cannot effectively attack me because you know I am right...' I always think thoughtful uncertainty a better position to take on moral issues”

I have lived long enough to know what is right and what is wrong. If you are “uncertain” about your moral position it could only be that you are hiding from reality and possible some hypocrisy if you were to declare a moral position.

And btw I remain right. It is shameful, if those you make excuses for were to actually adopt a “moral” position on their criminal scumbag activities, they would not undertake them in the first place.