Bernie

What a hell hole! I can't but agree that "Tamworth Institution for Boys remains the Frankenstein monster of a bygone era. It was a monster the NSW Child Welfare Department cloaked in secrecy to brutalise and emotionally scar children in its care."

While it may have been the worst (others may be contenders too), it certainly wasn't the only hell hole. There were hundreds of institutions for children throughout Australia and the Senate report, "The Forgotten Australians", decribes some of the disgraceful treatment meted out.

I endorse your comment that: "The end-products of that institutional process continue to occupy Australian prison cells and mental institutions today."

Unfortunately, the data comes from anecdotes and not from systematic recording of the correlation between life in children's institutions and life afterwards in prisons and psychiatric wards. But anyone who did time in children's institutions will tell you that many of their mates ended up in adult institutions.

Many of these men and women are now elderly and in some cases deperate about how they will survive their last years. Almost without exception, they are afraid of being put back into institutions.

I hope to hell that the Tamworth boys home and its ilk are a thing of the (shamefull) past. But I wish more products of juvie were articulate enough to be able publicly to tell their stories.

Unfortunately, as this article so graphicly states, State "Homes" seem to be mere production factories for adult criminals. They emerge from most of these institutions usually only semi-literate, brutalised, and with a world-view that warps many of their lives forever. Along the way they have picked up only the kinds of skills that are valued in their world - prison-smarts. Most have been not only raped but serially sexually abused.

Main-stream society rarely encounters these kids as they lurk on the fringes, chronically unprepared to fit in. Some of their stories, as this writer notes, would have most adults in tears. Yet the mote in our eyes ensures we reserve our tears for tales of far-away horrors in orphanages and homes in Europe, while ensuring that no product of "the system" comes close enough to our own kids to contaminate them.

Not long ago, running an unofficial "safe home", my star boarder was a softly-spoken, shy 16 year old who followed me round like a puppy, happily taking on any of the chores the rest skived off on.He blossomed in what he described as his first real home. Somehow - illegally - my rental agent found out this child had been in juvie and threatened the rest of us with eviction unless he went. Frenzied application to Centrelink, Youth care organisations etc. did no good and I still get tears in my eyes when I remember this kid, rucksack trailing, literally walking off into the sunset alone.

I dread the day when I pick up a newspaper and read his name.

I guess Keith Windschuttle would tell you that, since there is no contemporaneous documentary evidence of the brutalisation at Tamworth, therefore it never happened.

There is documentary evidence disguised as codes. If records indicate an insidence and they correspond to the story, then that is an indicator. Added to this is the trauma from an insidence, another indicator that something happened. The extent of trauma is another indicator. Also the number of people who were witnesses or with similar stories give it credibility.

I think there is more documentry evidence than you realise. Its a matter of how far enough up the food chain you can go to release confidential information. I don't accept that nothing at all was recorded.

This kind of stuff is the tip of the ice-burg.

The cell in the children's court building in Albion Street Surry Hills is the most horrific prison I've ever witnessed. Apart from the tunnels under Rozelle Hospital, but that is another dreadful story in Australian History.

Surry Hills detention cells were under the ground, low cieling, and so small, you can touch the walls with 2 hands on either side. It was clostraphobic, damp, and hellish to say the least. The door was thicker than the width of a window. The spot of light shone down from a tunnel to the street surface. They closed this in the mid 1970s.

It was built with the intention to isolate children from brutality.

Yet the children's institution were in many ways, more brutal that their adult counterparts. The whole thing is sickening. Surely things have changed. Have they?

i don't think anything has changed. the only changes is the money that is now generated from imprisonment. its a huge business. the whole bloody thing. money continues to be gained from the misfortune (in most cases) of others. the system has and always will be about punishment. rehabilitation and opportunities in a dogged penal system are few and far between.the ridiculous system of awarding certificates in ; anger management, stress management, drug and alcohol ets are insane. to think any of this lunacy adresses these innate issues is laughable. the system needs recidivism to spiral forever upwards. we all know the difficulties of adressing deviate behaviour. its not as easy as the self righteous believe. bernie knows only to well what is needed to adress the inhumane conditions and opportunities that have and continue to elude those caught in this rotten rotten harmful system

Ah yes noting changes, improvement in the education budget and the welfare budget and the numbers of busy-body government departments and we still get the criminally minded acting out their criminal aggression on the rest of us.

As for the bleeding hearts, wanting to excuse everyone for everything (and think the victims should go lick their wounds in private), I have not a minute for any of them.

A career criminal can whine all he wants about every injustice which has befallen him and at the end of the day we can compare him to someone else whose beginnings were more severe or disadvantaged and who has gone on to build an honest life for himself. The difference, the latter has backbone but the former has all the excuses for his own shortcomings – including blaming the system which has been deliberately put in place to circumvent his criminal tendencies.

No convict will ever thank the custodians of his internment for keeping him locked up but until he is prepared to look at himself in the mirror and point and say “you are the one who is to blame” he will continue to find excuses. Sad. Sad. Sad.

Oh tricky – not sure what you are sniffing but it is sure influencing your reasoning skills – the net cost of prisons is a burden on the social resources of the community. The monies generated from prison industries are negative and the prisoners are not worth the few dollars a day which they do get paid, I can at least refer to my own recent history (not as a inmate) as support for holding a view of prison culture and practice and recognize bunkum when I read it.

Col Rouge, I hope you never run foul of the law - as a perpetrator, or more to the point in this debate, as a victim. It woiuld be sad, sad, sad. Especially when the crime could have been prevented.

Do you think it at all possible that some juvenile institutions actually breed adult criminals? Do you think it's possible that preventative measures where people who are risk of getting into the justice system may be helped to avoid that?

Or it it always just that some people are born with a weak backbone or haven't looked at themselves hard enough in the mirror?

Perhaps not everyone is as morally worthy and righteous as you?

Oh Frank, how nice of you to notice my post and decide to respond, just what I wanted.

Like every other person in Australia, I make my own choices. The reason I do not “fall foul of the law” is because I confine the choices I exercise to those which are legal.

I would remind you that in the instance of say, a bank robber, the “victims” are the banking staff and members of the public who happen to be in the bank when some gun tottin’, club wielding thug in a balaclava enters the bank demanding money on penalty of death and not the said thug who ends up in prison for their heinous crime. Prisoners are not the “victims”.

One wonders if, next you will be saying rapist are victims of the social system which allows Australian women to wear scant attire. Like another old humbug of the Islamic persuasion.

Frank you are taking the “victims of everything” approach, which can only work if we presume no one is responsible for anything.

As for “Do you think it at all possible that some juvenile institutions actually breed adult criminals?”
I think the output of juvenile institutions actually has a lot to do with the input to juvenile institutions and I do not think a multi-offending old lag, potentially with an axe to grind, is necessarily the most objective of commentators.

I know “staff” in both adult prisons and juvenile facilities. Their opinion is that when imprisoned, most juvenile prisoners make no effort to benefit from the opportunity, preferring to hang-tough and be complete arseholes, ensuring their transition to more incarceration in the future.

It is all about choices!

As for “Perhaps not everyone is as morally worthy and righteous as you?”

I consider myself responsible for all my actions, regardless of the circumstances. If everyone else did the same, then we would not need prisons at all.

It is pathetic to try and make this an issue of my morality and attitudes when it's REALLY about the absence of morals and loathsome attitudes in criminals

Col

So it's "all about choices", is it? Nothing else? Wish I could make life as simple as that in reality. So the child who is bashed daily and sexually assaulted throughout their institutiuonalised life simply puts that all behind them and makes choices not to be scared, not to be confused, not to be angry, not to be disturbed, not to be violent? Easy as that, eh?

I do NOT in any way condone crimes, especially violent ones like rape and assault. But I can understand why some people are not capable at particular moments in their life of making morally and legally proper decisions. Or are confused by what they have learned in institutions about what's right and what the staff did to them?

When you say "the output of juvenile institutions actually has a lot to do with the input to juvenile institutions" are you really saying that some (all) people are born evil? They go into institutions as bad people and come out worse. Maybe we should admit that juvenile institutions don't achieve much? Perhaps you think we should be identifying criminals at infancy and treating them to a course in life choices.

Is it possible that your acquaintances - “staff” in both adult prisons and juvenile facilities - are rationalising their own inadequacies or otherwise protecting their own interests when they lay all the blame on their inmates?

I am not taking the “victims of everything” approach, nor do I presume no one is responsible for anything. I just think that if we understood the environmental factors that contribute to crime we might be in a better position to prevent more of it than we do now.

I was not making this an issue of your morality and attitudes, Col. What I was doing was pointing to your possible holier-than-thou outlook which refuses to concede that some criminals are made, or made worse, in institutions.

Yes Frank it is ALL about choices

“So the child who is bashed daily and sexually assaulted throughout their institutiuonalised life simply puts that all behind them and makes choices not to be scared, not to be confused, not to be angry, not to be disturbed, not to be violent? Easy as that, eh?”

Excuses.

“But I can understand why some people are not capable at particular moments in their life of making morally and legally proper decisions.”

So “incompetence” is an excuse? Care to gives us some specific examples of what you are talking about?

“Is it possible that your acquaintances” – “are rationalising their own inadequacies or otherwise protecting their own interests”

The prison systems, both adult and juvenile, have layers of bureaucratic supervision. Whilst some individuals will make excuses, the peer and management review processes will weed them out.

“environmental factors that contribute to crime” the foremost one is

someone who is not taking responsibility for their actions.

Criminals love it when apologists say “lets look at the environmental factors”, taking criminals off the hook for their anti-social actions.

“What I was doing was pointing to your possible holier-than-thou outlook which refuses to concede that some criminals are made, or made worse, in institutions.”

So I have gone from being “righteous” to being “holier than thou” , you will have me sanctified next.

It comes back to this Frank, you cannot effectively attack me because you know I am right, you can “play attack” with terms like “holier than thou” but that is crap really and you know it.

I have not got up here and said anything which I cannot stand behind or have seen with my own eyes.

I am appalled when children are betrayed by institutions and abused by priests – yet what happened to them, did they all turn to crime because of their “environment” ? No they did not and that is the point which you cannot get past !

“Environment” is a common influence on many individuals and many remain honest despite it.

A minority of scumbags don’t

Col

Personal choice is a shallow concept. People are not born morally competent - they learn about right and wrong. Much of their learning icomes from their experiences. It's excessively harsh to say, as you do, that we're making excuses for young people when they get into trouble after a childhood of sexual abuse and violence.

You ask for specific cases. Take child refugees who, orphaned, flee a war-torn country in fear of their lives. To avoid starvation and to survive they steal food. Stealing is morally wrong and illegal. Yet would I be just making excuses if I said their circumstances explained and justified their actions?

A teenage boy who has been sexually abused by his 'carers' in an institution was fostered out, and on the first night the foster father came to his bedroom with the intention of giving him a goodnight hug. The boy in a confused panic hit the father on the head with the nearest object, a lamp, severly injuring him. Would I be simply making excuses if I said I could well understand the boy's violence? Or is he just another of your "scumbags"?

The fact that some young people who were betrayed and abused by institutions do not turn to crime is no good reason why those who do should be damned and condemned outright ("scumbags") without at least some sympathetic understanding of their actions. Courts take into account any mitigating circumstances before they issue sentences on the guilty ones.

Incidentally (you raised the topic), I don't share your faith that adult and juvenile prison systems will "weed out" corrupt officials. The level of drugs in these institutions is rising with clear evidence of "staff" involvement. In the case of children's institutions, many investigations have revealed that "carers" caught abusing children were just quietly transferred to other institutions - able to offend with a fresh lot of vulnerable victims.

Col, your cocksure certitude worries me: ...'you cannot effectively attack me because you know I am right...' I always think thoughtful uncertainty a better position to take on moral issues

Frank Gol “Personal choice is a shallow concept.”

A womans right to choose to get or remain pregnant: personal choice?
Where to mark a cross on an election ballot: personal choice?
Marrying someone: Personal Choice?
What job or career to pursue: personal choice?
Which religious creed to hold fealty to: personal choice?
Which house to buy or rent: personal choice?
How many children to father: personal choice? (I had a vasectomy after my two: my personal choice)

The above items you consider “shallow”, seems my definition of “shallow” and yours are at odds.

Whether to rob a bank: personal choice
Whether to deal drugs: personal choice
Whether to rape: personal choice
Whether to drive drunk: personal choice

oh maybe, what tie to wear with a blue suit, whether to eat Indian or Italian, that might be in the shallow range of things

The examples you post are hypothetical and incidental; no point in pursuing hypothetical’s.

Re “The level of drugs in these institutions is rising with clear evidence of "staff" involvement. “

And a most drugs are smuggled by visitors in babies nappies and ballpoint pens etc.

Cite documented evidence of “staff criminal involvement” where more senior staff have turned a blind eye, then you would have done something to substantiate your scurrilous and to date, unsubstantiated claim and I trust you will submit your evidence to the police and prisons inspectorate who are there to investigate.

As for “Col, your cocksure certitude worries me: ...'you cannot effectively attack me because you know I am right...' I always think thoughtful uncertainty a better position to take on moral issues”

I have lived long enough to know what is right and what is wrong. If you are “uncertain” about your moral position it could only be that you are hiding from reality and possible some hypocrisy if you were to declare a moral position.

And btw I remain right. It is shameful, if those you make excuses for were to actually adopt a “moral” position on their criminal scumbag activities, they would not undertake them in the first place.

Col, Your simplistic – it’s all a matter of choice – is a logical travesty “A womans right to choose to get or remain pregnant: personal choice?” If she is raped and becomes pregnant, was it her personal choice? Many choices are restricted by circumstance.

We could go through your examples one-by-one showing where personal choice is restrained, e.g “Where to mark a cross on an election ballot: personal choice?” In some countries you vote at the point of a gun. Personal choice?

e.g. “Which house to buy or rent: personal choice?” Yes, with unlimited finance. But if you have a disability that makes work intermittent, what personal choice to buy or rent in Vaucluse or Toorak?

You dismiss my examples as ‘hypothetical and incidental’ - not worth pursuing. Why are my examples any more hypothetical than yours? Your personal choice to call mine hypothetical? Do I have personal choice to call your examples hypothetical?. Or double standards? Or cop-out - because my examples refute your simplistic argument?

I said: “The level of drugs in [adult and juvenile] institutions is rising with clear evidence of 'staff' involvement.” You reply: “…most drugs are smuggled by visitors in babies nappies and ballpoint pens etc.” You ask me to supply evidence – but you offer no evidence yourself. Personal choice?

Anyway, for children’s institutions see the Senate Report “Forgotten Australians”. On adult prisons, see the “Victorian Prison Drug Strategy” and associated research. A major aim is to try to reduce drug trafficking in prisons. (www.justice.vic.gov.au/wps/wcm/connect/DOJ+Internet/Home/Prisons/) Quote: “Whilst substance use in prison is commonly regarded as a continuation of pre-prison substance use, drug use may also either begin, or intensify, in prison…” A recent press release said: “…the Bracks Government doubled the number of prison visitor searches, more than doubled prisoner drug tests, doubled the number of sniffer dogs, boosted prisoner searches and strengthened perimeter security.” Still it rolls on.

It’s my free choice to live to not be specific on staff involvement in drugs.

Thoughtful uncertainty does not equate to 'hiding from reality'. Thinking you know it all is a delusion.

Oh Frank your analogies become more puerile as we progress,

The rape example merits thought.

Someone’s personal choices are violated (the woman by the criminal actions of a rapist scumbag) and what happens?

We prosecute the rapist and hopefully incarcerate the scumbag for a long, long time.

Society’s response to the violation of the woman’s “personal choice”, is to imprison the violator.

That certainly illustrates how "personal choice", what you describe as a “shallow concept” is, in fact, at the heart of our accepted social and legal values systems.

Re ““Where to mark a cross on an election ballot: personal choice?” In some countries you vote at the point of a gun. Personal choice?”

That is a laugh – darn it when were you last threatened with a gun to force your vote?

I would support the notion, on another thread currently running, that the process of compulsory attendance at a voting booth is undemocratic but that is not in the same ludicrous league which your hyperbole is extending things to.

So what you claim “We could go through your examples one-by-one showing where personal choice is restrained,” is bunkum.

Unsubstantiated by your examples and left unassailed by your reasoning.

Re - “You ask me to supply evidence – but you offer no evidence yourself. Personal choice”

It is not up to me to supply evidence of the non-occurance of what you claim, that is a rational nonsense, a path of reason which you seem to be wandering down and previously trod by Alice, in pursuit of a white rabbit.

Re “the Bracks Government doubled the number of prison visitor searches, more than doubled prisoner drug tests, doubled the number of sniffer dogs, boosted prisoner searches and strengthened perimeter security.” Still it rolls on.”

Exactly – in response to the criminal endeavours of prison visitors.

Frank, your arguments are inferior and more excuses than reason. You have lost the debate and are gradually loosing the plot.

My conclusion, you are slowly going around in ever decreasing circles, inevitably heading in the direction of disappearing up your own vortex.

Col,
Asserting you're right and I'm wrong, again, reminds me of schoolyard arguments. "Ya did'; 'I never'; 'ya did'.

I repeat - but don't expect you will give me an answer: Why are my examples any more hypothetical than yours?

I repeat - but don't expect you will give me an answer: When you say “…most drugs are smuggled by visitors in babies nappies and ballpoint pens etc”, why aren't you obliged to give evidence when you require it of me for my statements?

Your dishonesty is exposed by your blatant sophistry: "It is not up to me to supply evidence of the non-occurance of what you claim." But it was you Col who alleged that "most drugs are smuggled by visitors in babies nappies and ballpoint pens etc". That's what I asked you to supply your evidence for - and you know it. Free choice takes you only so far, Col. Truthfulness in debate is also a prerequisite. Now where's your evidence?

You claim I am losing the argument Col (how often the self-righteous appoint themselves as both prosecutor and judge in their own cases). But your aggressive language is a giveaway. Listen to yourself: 'your analogies become more puerile as we progress'; and 'you are slowly going around in ever decreasing circles, inevitably heading in the direction of disappearing up your own vortex'. That doesn't sound like the language of a winner to me, Col.

Frank Gol “Why are my examples any more hypothetical than yours”
your examples were specific and conditional

like your refugees, conditioned by specific events.
A boy abused in particular circumstances.

My examples were general, a woman’s basic right to choose an abortion or not, the selection of a marriage partner, examples which can be applied to a far greater proportion of the population and without the specificity which your examples contrive to require.

Hence, the greater the level of specificity, the more particular and limiting an example becomes and thus, the less pertinent it is to general discussion or debate.

I would have thought the actions of the State government in increasing searches and surveillance of prison visitors was evidence enough that the "educated view" is the major source of drugs in prisons are the visitors and villans throwing things over the wall. I would also observe, a prison official caught dealing drugs would find the consequences of their action a serious deterrent. Loss of employment, loss of income, loss of pension, a public pariah, likely gaol sentence, possibly in the institution they were previously a staff member of and of course the stigma of being a protected prisoner with greater loss of movement and freedom than a regular prisoner, for reasons of their own safety.

I would also observe that, in Victoria a prison official is subject to search processes, just like a general visitor and every time I went through the security scanners/ entry processes I and anything I was carrying was thoroughly searched (although I was not strip searched).

I am reading what you wrote and what I have written, your basis for debate is weak and you have not successfully challenged any point I have made. Your vernacular, suggesting I am self-righteous is as inflammatory as it is inaccurate.

That I have standards of conduct and that I hold them as suitable for anyone defines who I am. That you interpret holding standards of behaviour and conduct as “self-righteous” says a lot more about your absence of, than it does about my adoption of same.

dear col
your reasoning is without fault. i commend you on your venacular, very impressive. i have watched your words with frank over the past days and you seem almost godly the way you dispense your ideology. i do not sniff anything mr col. i don't need too. life is great. you on the other hand need to get out a little . your judgement and rule of thumb is scary. god help any unfortunate that comes your perfect way. and more importantly god help you mr col if misfortune deals you an awkward hand. good day.

Col

You say your examples are 'general' and my examples are 'specific and conditional'. Exactly the point. You make rules for every circumstance, whereas I say that you must take specific circumstances into consideration. You conceded the point in relation to a woman who gets pregrant through rape. My boy was abused, you say, in particular circumstances. Of course, isn't that always the case?

You say: 'the greater the level of specificity, the more particular and limiting an example becomes and thus, the less pertinent it is to general discussion or debate'. By contrast, I say: 'the more general the example the more easily people get away with sweeping judgements on human behaviour'. Consider why our courts are able to ask if there are any mitigating circumstances. Consider why many good parents ask children for the reasons for misdemeanours before they decide on a punishment.

I notice in your little dissertation on drugs in prison you (again) fail to rise to my challenge to provide evidence for your initial claim that 'most drugs are smuggled by visitors in babies nappies and ballpoint pens etc'. You'll recall you demanded that I provide evidence for my claims. Could it be that you don't actually have any evidence, Col?

As for the fear of dire consequences being a deterrent to crime for prison staff, well why do we need prisons at all if fear of consequences is sufficient deterrence? Corrupt officials and criminals have been with us since the beginning of time. They choose to take the risk (or do not fully appreciate the risk).

I note your claim that my 'basis for debate is weak' and that I have not 'successfully challenged any point [you] have made'. Perhaps you might let others make up their minds on that.

As for self-righteousness, I accept that you have standards of conduct and you are happy with those standards.

It's both sad and instructive that you judge me as not having standards. Perhaps you might consider this final proposition: we both have standards but they happen not to be the same.

Ha ha ha, I love to see ole Col thinking he is right AGAIN, You should know better by now Frank. Ahh you made my day :)

Part 1 Bernie!

Another great article Bernie.

The system is as equally brutalizing today, as it was back then. Sure the physical punishments may be less (well- we will probably only find that out for sure in 20 years!), but the psychological torture is still as prevalent, and provable today!

(Ie look at the lockdown rates. 18 to 20 hours a day somehow doesn’t classify as isolation or solitary confinement- even when it is happening to everyone in the system!)

Also as prevalent today is the number of kids inside, who are or were under the alleged care of the DOCS Minister.

Going on the official figures, 40% of the girls in Juvenile Justice and in adult prison have been through the DOCS system. At $150,000 per kid in juvenile justice- and around $80,000 for adult women that’s a hell of a lot of money.

Official figures indicate that boys and men who were in DOCS care make up only 30% of prisoners!

Don’t rely on official figures though; the unofficial tampering is huge, and only a few years ago they had the figures running at 2.5% of all prisoners. That changed when they realized the truth was out there however!

The biggest liar in those days was the Community Services Commission (legislated to change the system in the interests of kids in care- wow Col, the choices some people make!) who did interesting math to disprove the reality, and get the numbers way down to 3%, down by at least a factor of 10 !

The Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research hasn’t actively engaged in covering up to the same extent as all of the ‘child savers’ though; BOCSAR hasn’t said or written anything so stupid as to leave a paper trail, they simply ignore the issue totally! (but they have inquired into it haven’t they- see BOCSAR paper no 16- hey, you can’t find a copy! Not one library in the country has it. Even BOCSAR doesn’t have a copy in its own library? Well well well, who might have it I wonder?)

Part 2

In a few years no doubt the principle of that organisation will be join as part of an official chorus line and sing: “wow, its just like the 60’s revisited init’, no one then realised Aborigines were so heavily involved in prison- we were just colour blind!”

Anyway- I digress- sorry.

Oh yeah- Kariong!

Now that was a little regime (along with Ormond- we will get to that one in the future) that was operating up until recently that was almost as brutal as Tamworth. It even had its own ‘maggots’ who used to set up other screws (called ‘youth workers’ ha ha) to be beaten up by the inmates, by forcing them into dangerous situations. The maggots especially liked setting up female guards, and even fabricated evidence about their sexual activities with inmates to ease them out of the system.

The maggots got the ear of the Daily Telegraph, who went into bat for the scum of the earth, and then the NSW Liberal Party fought hard to protect them, by instituting an inquiry.

Eventually Government, despite the protestations of the PSA, the Liberals, and the NGO’s, by aligning government interests with the kids at Kariong, and turning the place into an adult prison, terminated the maggots.

Funnily, it seems the young people had been burning Kariong down periodically for the last few years because they too, wanted to extract themselves from the clutches of NSW DOCS and its control over the Juvenile Prison system (check for yourself, all of J.J.s DG’s came out of DOCS Head Office- wow, but I thought JJ had broken away from DOCS?).

Seems part of the torture regime at NSW JJ was to run kids through the same mindless program 3 and 4 times so as to give them a ‘structured regime’.

Anyway the Daily Tele, and the NSW Liberals fought alongside the conservatives in the child welfare NGO sector to keep Kariong in the hands of NSW DOCS because all the kids were rioting about was to be allowed to smoke in adult prison!

Hello tricky “your reasoning is without fault. i commend you on your venacular, very impressive.
. . . . you seem almost godly the way you dispense your ideology.”

You obviously appreciate “skill” when you see it.

“god help you mr col if misfortune deals you an awkward hand.”

So you know that life has not dealt me any “misfortune”?- Where and when did you source your data?

That I do not wear my “misfortunes” as a cross to bear or an some form of excuse is to merely measure my presence of fortitude to an absence of same in yourself.

Frank “Consider why our courts are able to ask if there are any mitigating circumstances.” And when the mitigating circumstances have been weighed and judgement determined, the criminals end up locked up, where they deserve.

My point regarding specificity and generalisation remains valid and pertinent. The law is a blunt and blind instrument (hence the depiction of a the carrier of the scales of justice wearing a blindfold).

All your protests to the contrary does not reduce the fact that criminals who are convicted have invariably been given options and dispensation and all mitigation has been considered and yet, despite all the latitude, they end up locked up.

Oh – proof that drugs enter by visitors Frank – I suggest you read

http://www.crimecommission.gov.au/content/publications/aidr_2000/08_Drugs_in_prisons.pdf

read it and weep.

And just to confirm it

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,21512160-2862,00.html

Part 3 and End!
Don’t worry about the fact that internal reports were marveling at the news that no one had died or been murdered yet in Kariong given it was so out of control, and the fact that the maggots had all the training of….. well maggots I guess! (they both feed of spoilt meat don’t they) seemed not to explain away the good luck of nil deaths.

The system even pulled into it suckers from the DSS, unemployed and untrained to run the place on weekends (well maggots only needed a coupla weeks training anyway), no doubt to the amusement of the maggots!

The place eventually got a small amount of public scrutiny, and was to all intents and purposes closed down, by being placed into the hands of adult corrections. The staff to prisoner ratios have now dropped, along with the levels of self harm, inmate to inmate violence (we don’t know about guard- inmate violence yet) while the programs have gone up, kids now have toasters, jugs and tvs in their cells, and the regime is steady and predictable.

Seems the kids love finally escaping the clutches of the crazy child welfare system, and actually enjoy being in a place where the rules don’t change with every shift!

Oh, and anyone who has a copy of the famous video taken in Kariong by the kids, of the kids smoking pot and doing other drugs, filmed no less on the prisons own video camera, for the full 60 minutes the tape lasted and showing no supervision… even though the kids handed back the camera, sans the tape later, please, I don’t have a copy yet for my archive, and the DG of JJ is a little less than forthcoming…..

Anyway, the system is still making and chewing through these kids, keeping maggots employed all over the place, and the only answer I can seem to get from the system that creates so much disorder in our community is that it’s the kids fault.

Seems they aren’t making the right choices either!

Where do you work Col?

Hello all
After reading the posts on this article I was compelled to have a say in this.I am one of the many boys that were locked up at Endeavour House Tamworth,not once but three times,during the mid to late eightys,originally i was sentenced for truancy and served my time at Anglewood Home.I continued my truancy after I was released and eventually wound up at Mt Penang Gosford where i learnt a lot of the tricks of the trade.From the age of 13 to 18 i was in and out of homes.Then I graduated to Jail. My introduction to jail was Grafton.I spent 10 years in and out (more in) of the jail system in NSW.Now at the age of 43 I trust no one, Am a recovering alcho, and drug addict.I cant hold a job down for more than 6 weeks at a time and have been through countless relationships.Am I to blame for the way I am?

JohnW “Now at the age of 43 I trust no one, Am a recovering alcho, and drug addict.I cant hold a job down for more than 6 weeks at a time and have been through countless relationships.Am I to blame for the way I am?”

I chose 15 years ago never to get drunk again, after spending 3 days feeling awful after a particularly rare and heavy session.
I tried dope and gave that away about 35 years ago and pleased with that decision.
I have not held down a regular job in the past 20 years. 18 months has been the extreme limit more often 6 months but I do it by choice and structurally to make it work for me.

2 marriages and several significant relationships along the way I am in my 50's and at last happy with the lady I am with and she with me.

As for trust – I do trust but I should trust less and that is a price I pay repeatedly. You might be right in not trusting.

You made the choices in your life. Incarceration was intended to help you, maybe you fought the process as you did your schooling (truancy).

I fought the process from within and spent some time studying how to make it work for me rather than just kicking out at it.

So why are you are suggesting someone else is to “blame” for the way you are?

I alone am to “blame” for the way I am and there is not much difference between us, except how we deal with adversity and our expectations of pity / excuses versus taking it on the chin, getting up after and getting on with the rest of our life.

JohnW, Life in institutions is the reason you have found it hard to succeed in life ,especially time in Tamworth with the harsh beatings ,inhumane acts,that was forced against you from a cruel sadistic inhumane Child Welfare system.

I was in Hay Girls institution 1962-65,same officers as Tamworth,same rules,they were aloud to do what they wanted to and got away with it.

I ran away from a violent home life, got sent to Parramatta Girls institution and stood up against the rapes, floggings and psychological abuse, I and others were receiving by our so called "carers", committed for being Exposed to Moral Danger and Uncontrollable.Thats why I was sent to Hay.
To take the heat off the Welfare to put it to us girls as the most incorrible girls in the state.

I do not like drugs, violence, rape or any one victimized but you have to wonder what and where they are coming from also wonder if they were children that were supposed to be "cared" for and ended up in the clutches of a system like we were.

Col Incarceration did not protect us,it took every thing from us,trust ,selfworth,dignety,school learning,our child hood and alot they took there own lives and hurt others in doing so.
In the nine months I did at Hay,five girls that I was there with suicided at a early age.
Why? some people have more resilience than others.

I have struggled all my life to stay away from depression,relationships,drugs booze any thing that could do more dammage than what was already done, and take me away from my children they are my survival.
Reminders everyday news,violence,child Abuse,Pediphiles, Rapes,it keeps our memory banks open to the injustice that happened to us, understanding why some people can not forget and get on with every day living,even after 45 years.

Makes me wonder Col where you came from? From the inside or out side with a key?

It taught hate ,rebellouse,lack of trust,dissacocation to survive, was not intended to help or protect any child.

Bernie,
My stay at Tamworth Prison was in 1961.I was nick-named "Tom Thumb",and I was 14 yrs of age.It's hard to re-visit those days..but I'd like to tell you what I remember.On arrival the warden told me to drop my pants and bend over.He inserted two fingers to make sure I wasn't bringing in contraband.Then the rules were set out."No talking was allowed..if spoken to by a warder you were to answer "Report to you, sir","report back to you, sir",and if you needed to go to the toilet at the two or three times set out for each day,you were to say, when asked only,"three sheets,sir"[which meant you wanted to sit down]."You must not touch,talk or look at another prisoner,or warder.Your eyes must be always to the ground.You will march at all times,and if called,will run and stand to attention.If you behave you will recieve a half-of-a-pound of food per day,and you have to finish eating at the warder's command",[this was usually one,or two minutes].My mouth was full of large blisters from trying to eat the hot porridge in time.But after a week or so my mouth got used to the heat.In the mornings you have to move quickly to parade in the cell corridor.You have thirty-seconds to fold your night clothes neatly,and dress.Exercize was based on special forces training.Single and double rebounds,press-ups [with hands together],etc.Punishment was the black-peter and you have to rub a steel-bar over a grooved cell-bar continually,day and night to let the warders know you aren't sleeping.Food was cut to one slice of bread and a cup of milk a day.If you couldn't,or wouldn't do this then black-bertha [a razor-strap]was the result.Daily activities invovled moving large sand-stones by hand,from side-to-side over wooden or concrete floors,making straw-brooms and pulling a large steamroller wheel with spikes in it, back and forth over a grassed area.
I shifted to WA in 1970,where I became an entertainer...singer,songwriter,producer.But the memories of the time I spent in Tamworth,still remain.I regret my youth, and the bad things I did in my past.I'm still getting councelling...but...I'm fine.God Bless

I was an inmate of Hay girls home 40 years ago and i still have nightmares about that hell hole.Scrubbing the mortar off bricks with my bare hands until they bled and nothing done to help me.Digging vege gardens in 40 plus heat and not allowed to take a break.An exercise regime that would have floored Rocky.My crime was tattooing my self at Parramatta GTS.Big deal!.I never harmed other people or was a criminal, i just ran away from an abusive adopted father.How can ataying 6' away from everyone,eyes always to the ground,locked in a cell 14 hours a day or isolated with only bread and milk,make any child into a worthwhile adult.I have been fortunate that i have never been in trouble as an adult but that has not been because of any lessons i learnt as a juvenile,more a matter of luck.Most of my friends from back then are dead now,quite a few from suicide.Keep up the good work Bernie.

Hi, Haygirl.

I feel compelled to say how terrible I feel that you went through what you have,even though you haven't mentioned to much of what happened to you. We used to hear the stories that came out of "Hay Prison" after I left Tamworth Prison..so I know a bit.I know you experienced much the same as we did....except,we couldn't [back then] get it through our heads, that girls could be treated so inhumanly. I still can't understand it all.I've seen comments like..."the authories must be told about whats happening / happened in these places..." [Just an example,not a reflection on any one comment].
After much pressure my Uncle was allowed to visit me in Tamworth in 1961,just before he passed away . I weighed under four-stones and my eyes where so sunken that it reminded him of prisoners in concentration camps of war. Complaints were made..and promises that this would stop...bla..bla.
My deep concern..and 'question' is. ARE THESE TREATMENTS STILL HAPPENING? Have they got no fear of God at all? I WILL NOT believe that the people who do these things get away with it...and I find it hard to believe that those in Authority know nothing...and are not doing something to chance a cruel system.
Haygirl...and anyone who has had a hard time of it,for that matter.I only hope life has dealt you a kinder hand since those days.
Tom Thumb

Hi Tom Thumb,We had no black bertha,just fists and no steam roller,just push mowers.We had to break concrete paths and relay them and sleep facing the door.If we rolled over in our sleep we had to stand next to the bed at attention until the kind hearted screw thought we had learned our lesson.We also had our meals lessened if we did wrong.Go to isolation like i did and no bed just a board and one blanket, if you were lucky.The biggest humiliation was when it was our time of the month and we had to show our sanitary wear before we were given replacements.Even if it was a male officer on toilet parade.We also lost a lot of weight and had our hair hacked off.Not pleasant memories but i'm doing ok.Happily married and a granny now.Took 3 marriages to get it right though.

Yes Haygirl,

Forgot about the lack of bed coverings..and the crying of new inmates..[hardened cases of the toughest kind].Tamworth,Grafton,Hay... never failed to break even the worst ones.I agree that punishment was deserved for my actions against society, but I guess they didn't take into account that the punishment that I recieved from my Step-father was one of the causes..[not all]for me turning out the way I was.
When food ran on the farm we were fed boiled grass in our soup,our hair was cut with sheep-sheers.We had signs attacked to our backs saying "I am a bad boy"that we had to wear all day at school.He took the lead bits out of the "cat-of-nine-tails"after he was told it was illegal to use it anymore.So he tied knots in the ends..and dipped them in salt.We had to work for our food in the garden, or by doing chores until dark [8pm,or there abouts].Lots more, but..it's in the past now.

So I already knew about hard punishment before I ended up in gaol, his treatment cushioned the experience of Tamworth a bit.
Sometimes one foolish action can catapult us into hell.If I could help one young person by what I've written here,then life itself has been worth it, even more. I,like you have Grand-children..marriage,No. one[she passed away with brain tumors 18yrs ago]second marriage,no..three weeks, so that failed,we must remember though.."Life wasn't meant to be easy".
You have a good life Haygirl...be happy..dont make me cry..I'll be praying for you.
Tom Thumb

Hi everyone,
If there is ANYONE out there who was at Tamworth Boys Home OR Mt Penang Gosford at the time Jackson, Neddy Smith, Finch were there as I would dearly love to talk to them about some personal things with me....someone PLEASE help me.
Thanks
Elizabeth

Hi Liz,
Can you email me at intractablebm@yahoo.com

I to was sent to Hay i was raped bashed kick all over my body ears punch in in parramatta before i was sent to hay while in hay i was programed not to talk, think , look , only march everywhere 6 foot apart work doing a mans job and more, not been able to stop when you dont think you can continue in minis temps and extream heat having to do 100 push ups while Mr Hockley push his foot down on your back ,to be staved having food taken off us for punishment like flick your eyes tosee if they (MRS Hockley) were watching my arm in the air ,not been able to take it down when it was paining and swaying more food taken of you .Thoes people love to watch us suffer and always loved to give us or me a hard time while trying to break our sprits ,they committed very bad crimes on us and to this day have never been brought to justice they are sitting back on pensions that my taxes pay for .THEY should have their pension taken from them they should be brought to justice
motherbear

Hi Tom Thumb,My email address is jennyr22@optusnet.com.au .If you would like to talk send me an email.I have found that talking to others that went through the same thing to be more beneficial than seeing counsellors.If you don't feel up to that,good luck and enjoy the rest of your life.I have been talking to other Parramatta and Hay girls and it's amazing how many still have physical and psychological problems.Unless you've been through that system,you don't realise the scars that have been left.Even one's like me,who've made a decent life,seem to still march to the beat of a different drum.Good luck to you all.

HI Fruityfee I have answered your e-mail but I did put AU on the end I hope this was right.? If not please go to elizabeth_taylor85@yahoo.com.au Thank you for the contact

Well, well i buy a computor and what do i find , hey check out my nick name ... have i been there.... do iremember., am i a unit,lets just think right back shall we...., who was that dingo chaser at gosford or penang that caught me and got me shanhied to tamworth , well while ya trying to figure that one out... when ya write ya books stick to the truth ... who cares about my poor lil orphan stories , any ways the joint as knew it sucked didnt do me a lot of good at all but it was a big time crim that got me put there , memory comming back yet ... no well wait for the next thrill packed episode, happy shakeing with ya disease . pucker ridup

awwwwwww look can some one give me a spell check on that last posting b4 iget a bounce and only half ameal ........ hollie stone

Hey Hollie Stone,Could you posibly write that again,in English this time please.We in institutions didn't have the benefit of learning a 2nd language. Was unaware gobbledy gook was a language anyway.Think its more than a spell check you need.More like a reality check.

hi hay girl nice to meet you , limited schooling , is the reason for my postings garble last evening , that and a touch of anger .. more so the fact i stumbled on this artical by accient and it is a type of nite mare some times when confronted again by the dreaded tamworth , i was not out to offend any one ty for your quick responce

as u can see i do need spell checks , reality checks i had those with a big bout of psychosis a real,reality check condition that i went throuh after years of drinking, add to that a long criminal record that started when i was five yrs old at royalstone boys home.my name is john and i too was caught up in the systym... not going to bad at the moment,... and working .... i probly spent all my child hood yrs in institutions and a great deal of my adult life too.

Hollie Stone,You're forgiven.I thought you may be one of the idiots who get on these sites and judge the rest of us.I to was a victim of the child welfare system.Doing ok now but it's been a long hard road.Glad to hear that you are ok at present.Sometimes just having contact and talking to others from the same background helps considerably.Shame the bastards didn't teach their inmates to read and write.We're all pretty good at digging,cleaning,marching and working but unfortunately not so good at living a "normal life".Isn't it amazing,the first thing most of us do when we have access to the net,is look up our old stamping grounds.

hi there again, after my reception beating on arriving at tamworth ,irecall seeing an inmate marching towards me .... and although i was in a lot of pain ,i wondered why he was so skinny ...after my time was finished there i probly weighed less than him ...to start a the begining of my story,, my mum was constantly bashed , as were my sisters , and my self by my >father<?. ok so after running away or running out of the way , the child welfare stepped in and i was placed in care of some people , i had to run of from them too they scared me .seems i was uncontrolable and i was sent to royalstone boys home in sydney, i was seven yrs old . my sisters whom i could not protect no more were in a girls home on the nth shore i think but im not sure it could have been called st. josephs ... my mum had gone mad and was in a mental institution ..
the next time i saw her was thirty seven yrs later ... i have found both my sisters they are well and we keep contact .they are younger than myself i am 64... hope im still makeing sence with this ..

jails , my time spent in them yes i did the crimes to be in there , i guess im what is termed a petty crim .. mental institutions well i guess that was bound to happen .. bad child hood .instituteions bashings , for no reason that i can put my finger on ... tamworth really hurt me ... what angered me back then was the fact that three inmates called store boys chased me , caught me gave me a biffing and handed me over to the fo-ul smelling superitendent,who in turn had me shanghied to tamworth... why did i try to run off at mt penang ?. simple i was scared of everyone ... ok so im getting upset and frightened again so i will come back later and try and finish this posting

Hi Hollie Stone...Yes my partner pushed that STONE more than once. The one thing that you say about kids being skinny is so right my partner told me more than once that when boy got out of the car at Gosford you knew where they came from if they were really skinny they came from Tamworth and if they were not to bad they came off the streets. He was at both places with Finch and Neddy. How did these people (if you can call them that)sleep at night. If ONLY 1/8 was true they need horse wipping

last comments for me on this subject .. i think some times how come so many of us ex inmates started out as innocent kids ,, got the crap beat out of us by a parent ,or worse then came under the notice of a department and through no fault of our own ended up in a place even more sinister than what we were running from... not makeing sence again am i ?.. what im saying is ,,,running from danger is normal for children why punish a five, six, or seven yr old when their poseing no threat...it just does not sound right to me when a grown man part of the system says quote im locking you away for your own welfare ...i noticed your comments liz nice to meet you .. anyways look like i said i was at tamworth , hated the place .. hay girl i didnt know hay girls home existed and was run on the same basis as tamworth .. untill late nineties. shocked me ,, and im real happy hay girl your doing ok , i did hear once the disapline used in most institutions was based on navy punishment ,if thats true im glad i didn,t join the navy as an adult other wise a lot of captains and admirals would have got knocked right out trying that on me when i was growed ,,ok so im outta of here it does help to jog down a line or two on paper ..ty and take care of your selves ... my grand kids will be fine im there to look after them ... after all its all about looking after the young ... see ya

liz i didn,t forget you , if your partner was there and he said it happened it happened. hollie stones, beatings,what i called musical pipes and bars,(running a peice of bar over bars on a grill)air sweeping.. hard work trying to sleep with your hands in sight , and if you suddenly find your partner dont talk much its probly because he has been in a place where he couldn,t talk... thing is.. yep! we cry most people do, and the ""white rat faced"" people that ran those places broke and hurt us, one thing they forgot and that is one day we would grow up and learn to talk again ...,