Sorry all, I did not mean to say Matzpen (which was on the fringe), but rather, a party like Meretz to which Shulamit Aloni, a former Israel government minister and critic of the occupation belongs.

I know I will be condemned for this error by those who see conspiracies in errors.

Larry

David

You are persistig with your outright lies.

Here is the full article from which you are quoting small excerpts. Remember it is the same one you cited in support of your argument.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1173700695225&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Read the whole bloody thing it is only a couple of thousand words. It is quite clear, it doesn't support your contentions. It shows Hamas as giving way on it's demands for the destruction of Israel. Why do you continue to argue against peace? The quoied article does show there are elements within the Palestinian leadership who, while the don't outright condemn extremist violence, do show the want peace.

Why don't you talk about and show support for the ideas conyained in the current article. Surely as an avowed liberal democrat you'd support open discussion within every democracy?

Larry,

Logic doesn't read much at all.

"Am I my brothers keeper" http://www4.jrf.org/showdt&rid=296&pid=8

So my brothers, are you my keeper? and am I your keeper? No and yes...

There is no real 'independent jewish voices', its the same old story from time of abel and cain... destruction/growth, deceit/fact, evil/good... and we take our respective sides in this... and unfortunately from the acts happening around us and in middle east it appears that the destruction/deceit/evil has the power and authority over the later...

But on closer look, each community has the same forces, palestine/jewish, arab/christian, mother/father...

It is in nature of former to divide and rule with previledged/oppressed...good hands are reaching out to clasp each other in different communities, for it is nature of later to unify and bond.

'Goods' fundamental problem was to treat the former with same respect and honor given to themselves, and that was a weakness that was exploited to lead to what we have now... the solution is different rules apply to the former and later and how the two meet...then there will be peace by former/later power and authority extend only within it and the boundary carefully patrolled...it forces both sides to take due care(Yes... the two dont mix well unfortunately)...so my brothers, yes we are each others keepers...

Sam

I should think being Jewish is much like being of any other religion. It comes with a certain amount of expectation. When discussing Middle East issues with friends, of which only a couple are Jewish, I can see a philosophical/religious struggle in their comments. It's like watching myself and other non-Jews in the group dance around the issues and specifics hoping not to be misinterpreted and come off sounding like anti-Semites. It's a wonderful world we have built for ourselves. Political correctness before all else. I think one needs to separate out and consider independently being a Jew, Zionism, and Israel or Israeli.
Surely one may have an opinion as one on all four with out being all for. :-)

Cheers

aqvarivs

You are quite right. Except that being Jewish has a tribal element about it and DNA seems to show a small degree of common inheritance. Also it is a minority and as such there is a defensive and also a shared history element.

Most Jews are fond of the concept of Israel. The problems of Palestinian refugees are a tragedy to almost all Jews but this must be seen in the light of history and tempered with the plight of Jewish refugees from Muslim lands. The numbers of both were similar but the contrasting behaviour of the two is something to consider.

Lary

You are also right I rarely read the Jewish news and certainly don't read the letters. I am sorry but I don't change my views, and have little respect for the academic left.

Logic...quite right about the "tribal element", but I'm not so sure about the DNA. I must get mine checked some time. One of the effects of belonging to a minority is that its members tend to have little or no empathy with the feelings of others. That is why it is almost impossible to get most Jews, whether in Israel or outside, to put themselves into the shoes of Palestinians. This leads inevitably to the "blame game", in which who fired the first shot becomes of fundamental importance. Do Palestinians have justified grievances? Not to be discussed. Are Israelis going the right way about resolving differences with the Arab world? Not to be discussed. How can there be light at the end of the tunnel when no one believes the tunnel exists anyway?