Oligarch

You ask me: (a) Are you honestly asserting that Western values are universally accepted by other cultures? My answer is first that 'Western values' is a meaningless term, and second that no values are universally accepted although I wish a few were were. See my earlier post for a tentative list.

You ask me: Do you even accept that Western culture and values exist? My answer is that I need to know what you mean? Precisely which values are 'Western'? For example do you mean capitalist values or socialistic ones or nihilistic ones? In 'Western' nations I witness cheating, geed, lying and dishonesty. Are these what you mean?

You ask: Are you claiming that mainstream Australia should simply disown its values, culture, and heritage in favour of cultural relativism? I am certainly not in favour of cultural relativism. I want to know what you mean by 'mainstream Australia' and 'its values, culture, and heritage'. Are these the things that John Howard trots out every now and then when he wants to distract voters?

This is not playing word games. You are using language which is ill-defined but you are acting as if you and I both agree on their meaning. Most are weasel words used by thick-head politicians when they want people to have sawdust for brains.

You throw in more nonsense terms - 'spontaneous ethnic segregation' (like spontaneous combustion); 'a society which does not respect itself' (in the morning?); ' immigrants must always lose their own culture' (how very careless); and 'Multiculturalism is the antithesis of nationalism' (that's good).

For every Gunnar K. A. Njalsson and Paul Scheffer (who?) I can cite ten eminent thinkers who would disagree with them. Where does that lead us? Think for yourself - but do so with an open mind, not an empty one

Frank... What I'm attacking is the concept of 'Multi'...culturalism.

You ask what are mainstream Australian values ?.. mate.. *think* and I mean that. Because by and large we just 'live' our values rather than consciously thinking of some list. Just 2 exampleS
1/ "Best and FAIRest" is an Australian value.
2/ Shaking hands when we meet (either gender) is an Australian/Western value.

French tend to do a lot of kissing.. men on men action too I might add..

Please don't make everyones brain explode by challenging them to "list' all our values. It goes without saying that we have them.
If you want a comprehensive list, do some thinking or consult an anthropologist.

The most important issue is the place of 'alien' cultures in regard to Australian culture.

a) We can seek to absorb them into ours totally.
b) We can reject, alienate and marginalize them.
c) We can control the numbers of people arriving who follow alien cultures such that they simply don't register on our cultural radar.
d) We can control the numbers but also make an effort to encourage cultural interaction, mutual benefit and intermarriage and mutal understanding from such interaction.

But .. how are we to act when we are informed by our new cultural friends that soon they will be removing the clitorus and sewing up the Labia_Majora of their infant_daughter?

"d" is my preference. But one thing I regard as socially, culturally and politically dangerous beyond measure, is to bring uncontrolled numbers from foreign cultures here, withOUT due regard for the particular ideas associated with their culture, and then to say "Well, now ur hear, just keep on doing what you always have, its cool" when the reality is that some of those "ideas" could be a direct threat to our very existence.

One such idea is "The World and all that is in it belongs to Allah AND HIS APOSTLE" (and his political/social 'crew')

Ur welcome to not see this as a threat, but I do. The AFP and ASIO do also, and 24 men from this tradition are now on trial.

What I can not understand, are those who hate themselves for being white. You would think they would end their lives to get their suffering over with, wouldn't you.

Multiculturalism has only forced the disintergration of Australian culture so that other's may exist. Once we white Australian's become the minority, the racial war will be between the Asians and Arabs, neither will allow Aboriginals to keep their culture. By comparison, we so called 'white oppressors' will seem like loving grannies by the time Arab or Asian people classify Aboriginals as less than contaminated dirt.

The solution for Australia to be a Bi-Cultural nation between the Aboriginals and white Australian of european origin. We must learn to work with each other for without such harmony, both of us will lose out greatly.

Spider, people who think like you help to create stereotypes about Australians being racist and narrow minded people.

Australia was already a multicultural country years ago, even though some people are just beginning to hear and understand that. Asians, Pacific Islanders and Lebanese were around before the word multiculturalism was made so popular to the public. Some new immigrants along with those with non-traditional Australian backgrounds are having a harder time socializing with people who feel that their a setback to society. The Australians who are open minded, and those who feel secure about their future have not made a huge argument over Multiculturalism.

Amel .. for "open minded Australians" read "Naive about history and culture" or.. "Educated with a mix of left wing idealism and Post modern cultural/philosophical relativism"

If you persuade people that 'everything is relative' and that the best thing for the world is to become a "Global Village" then they are more likely to cling less tenaciously to any sense of culture.

THE PROBLEM: is that many migrants bring to this still very young country, a very LONGGGG history of both race and culture. Greeks as just one example.. all the way back to Alexander and Pythagorous and Plato etc.. don't you consider it highly likely that Greeks coming here would feel they had a more valuable and important historical/cultural heritage than we Aussies in this convict infested 200 yr old country ?

Now this applies to many migrant groups and its not a condemnation as much as an understandable observation. Being aware of this, Australia NEEDS to act to persuade people not to come here if they bring cultural or religious superiority attitudes with them.

Australians will generally do little to protect themselves culturally until it becomes just too much and then we get a Lambing Flats rebellion and/or a Cronulla. Neither of which are very palatable.

Regarding the compatability of Islam I refer readers to this:
http://micorps.org/downloads/Vanguard-Q4-06scr.pdf Page12

["Exploitable Seams" are elements of Strategic Culture which can be thought of as “Love-Hate” relationships that bind the three elements (Holy Texts, Clerics, and the People) together. For example, within the American experience, there is the love-hate relationship between the People and the Government. Americans love the Constitution but hate big government. Another love-hate relationship, successfully exploited by North Vietnam, was the dichotomy between an anti-military bias and the tradition of the citizen soldier.

By exploiting the seams binding the People to the Government and the Military, North Vietnam was able to fracture the Political Trinity of the United States. The same process may be applicable in the “Global War on Terrorism”.]

COMMENT:
Indigenous Australians and White government='Exploitable Seam' for Islam.

David

I think your posts are getting silly. You really are exposing the vacuity of 'mainstream Australian values' with your examples: 1/ "Best and FAIRest" is an Australian value. 2/ Shaking hands when we meet (either gender) is an Australian/Western value. Whereas you say 'French tend to do a lot of kissing.. men on men action too I might add..' I'm fifth generation Australian and I kiss a lot. I also like to hug men. Am I, and my friends, unAustralian?

You assert that Australian values are threatened by multicultualism but you can't articulate these values - it would make 'everyones brain explode'. If you can't articulate Australian values, how can you assert that they are under threat from immigrants?

From your list of possible options (a to d) it's clear that you are conflating immigration ('uncontrolled numbers') with multicultualism (policy on intergroup relations in Australia), a common mistake on OLO.

You express your fears with extreme and/or silly examples (cliterectomy and kissing) but your principle driver seems to be religious intolerance dressed up as fear for national security. Our security forces have charged 24 Muslim - what does that say about the other 300,000 Australian Muslims who are law-abiding?

You reiterate '.. THE PROBLEM' to Amel - but now with a twist. This time you use the Greeks who bring ;...a very LONGGGG history of both race and culture... all the way back to Alexander and Pythagorous and Plato etc.. And the PROBLEM with this is that "Australia NEEDS to act to persuade people not to come here if they bring cultural or religious superiority attitudes with them." What!?

What a deplorable lack of understanding of the history of Western civilisation which draws on Greek and Roman (Italian) culture. Moreover Greeks and Italians came to Australia iin massive numbers from the 1950s onwards and I see no sign of their undermining Australian values. Quite the contrary.

The construct of "Exploitable Seams" is bizarre. And to suggest the process that allegedly lost the Vietnam War may be applicable to the “Global War on Terrorism” is far fetched and implausible.