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The Forum > Article Comments > Is multiculturalism really 'mushy'? > Comments

Is multiculturalism really 'mushy'? : Comments

By Jieh-Yung Lo, published 27/2/2007

Multiculturalism may be abandoned as a policy but it continues to live on as a value.

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PART 1 of 2

The Author said:

"Even without government support, multiculturalism will still stand as a unifying force for Australians everywhere."

COMMENT: What absolute and total ROT ! I've seldom heard such blatant self contradictory statements as this "Multi"(Diverse) + "Unifying" (bringing together)

I'll repeat my own mantra again "When was the last time you saw a Union marching chanting "The Workers Divided, will never be defeated" ?

Thats right..NEVER.. what you DO hear is "The workers UNITED will etc"

Then: quoting Costello and Robb

[the “M” word has been transformed by interest groups into a philosophy that put “allegiances to original culture ahead of national loyalty”.]

and that is EXACTLY what has happened... and it's also the reason why the change came about.

Lets look at one of the authors statistics.

[one in every four (24 per cent) Australian was born overseas and 15 per cent of the population speaking a language other than English at home.]

yes..and if you look at the ethnic breakdown of that 24% you will find MOST of them come from the UK. i.e.. the original racial/cultural stock which produced Australia as we know it today.

IF EVER there was an unbeatable argument for limiting non traditional Australian racial/cultural stock it is that CLAIM !

I can hear the echo's of those voices against indiscriminate migration after WW2 saying "Watch out..if you let just anybody come here pretty soon they will be telling you that you don't have a culture and 'Now look.. all of us different groups here.. your prevailing culture no longer applies' "

Well guess what.. THEY WERE RIGHT ! If they authors viewpoint is anything to go by.

Does Yung Lo realize just how insulting, offensive and racist is his claim ? here he is saying in effect "All your cultural development as Australians since European settlement is now of little value..its just one among many, and now it will simply be subject to the various ethno/linguistic/cultural pressures from all the various migrants as they compete to establish their own culture as top dog."
Posted by BOAZ_David, Tuesday, 27 February 2007 9:30:46 AM
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This is a positive article. Good to see those most affected by redneck reactionaries still have a little optimism to share.
Posted by bennie, Tuesday, 27 February 2007 9:55:08 AM
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Does Boazy realize just how insulting, offensive and racist is his rant above?

Boaz: "here he is saying in effect "All your cultural development as Australians since European settlement is now of little value.."

What absolute and total ROT! Jieh-Yung Lo says no such thing - and that Boazy interprets his article thus is just another indication of the warped workings of his missionary brain.

Take a pill, Boazy.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Tuesday, 27 February 2007 10:31:13 AM
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As someone who can remember the New Australians (migrants who arrived after WWII) before the word multiculturalism was invented, and who married one of those newcomers (a non-English speaker), I'd like to make a few comments.

MC is an idealistic concept with an unworkable reality. We laughed at US movies of the 1950s, that showed much flag waving, and US migrants being thankful that they were in the land of the 'Free'. However, I can now understand the problems and what the US at the time was trying to achieve. Not to make people give up their ethnic foods, literature, music or such but to try to weld/meld migrants from diverse backgrounds into being proud of being US citizens, Americans. To inspire them to be proud of their new country. To learn English in order to help their new country as well as themselves.

MC which appeared in the 1970s, supposedly celebrated the differences of our migrants but never required anything more of them. We have lost the plot, in more ways than this.

Today our schools teach post-modernist agendas, patriotism has lost favour, and as far as I can tell, children no longer salute the flag, learn national songs, or even know about our historical heritage. By that I mean that it is owned that Aboriginal heritage goes back 40,000 years or more...and we are all glad that Aboriginal history is belatedly acknowledged...but we seem ashamed of the glorious past of Ancient Greece, Rome, the Renaissance, down to present day Australian artists, writers, Philosophers. There are dark happenings in our past but the achievements, glories outweigh these many times.

We also don't hear of our early settlers and the hardships endured to build today's Australia. My grandparents lived in Western Queensland without electricity, medical help, libraries, etc, survived the Great Depression by shooting rabbits and eating their own vegetables.

Let MC die a proper death and let us all encourage our new comers as well as everyone living in Australia today, to be proud and work hard for this country with all its drawbacks as well as its potential
Posted by amber300, Tuesday, 27 February 2007 11:14:08 AM
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This is a nice little rant that makes people feel good. I'll be first to admit that I have benefited having friends from a variety of differnet backgrounds. To pretend however that their are not major problems such as caused by the rednecks and racist Lebos in Cronulla is burying your head in the sand. Who wants to become like France or England?

The author speaks of the 'real test" is how we see ourselves as a civil society. The society is becoming less civil and the more we allow those that oppose Western values the more we will have trouble. Our real test is being selective in who we allow in this country. It will be interesting to see if Pauline makes it into the Senate. Even more interesting if she managed to hold balance of power.
Posted by runner, Tuesday, 27 February 2007 12:11:18 PM
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David, why are you so hysterical and afraid?

Why do you find it necessary to distort what Jieh-Yung Lo says? I've read the article three times and I can't find anything remotely like: "All your cultural development as Australians since European settlement is now of little value." How did you construct such a weird meaning from the article?

amber300, I think you have listened uncritically to too much Donnelly-type propaganda about what schools teach. Sweeping assertions about our schools rarely reflect the reality. Take the time to go down to your local school and see for yourself.

The proposition that multiculturalism and pride in Australia are in competition is absurd. We can have both. I am proud of Australia because of its multiculturalism (among other reasons).

runner, I think it's time to define what you mean when you use the grab-all phrase 'Western values'. Do you mean, for example, serial lying and cheating among politicians? Or adultery? Or binge drinking? Or the drug culture? Or screwing workers for as little pay as possible? These are all readily found in Australia. Are they 'Western' values?

The values I want to honour are not 'Western' but universal - like respect for humanity, tolerance of difference, freedom from repression, the right to free speech, equality before the law, respect for the rule of law, and so on. I don't see where multiculturalism threatens those values - in fact it enhances them.

Many of those who condemn 'multiculturalism' describe and condemn practices that are nothing at all to do with multiculturalism. They construct a bogey man and play on people's fears.
Posted by FrankGol, Tuesday, 27 February 2007 12:43:50 PM
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Here we go again .
( where does Graham find them all ? )

Please do not confuse MC with circuses for the masses, which is basically what all the MC parades & festivals are.

Real MC is deeper & more sinister:
i) It endeavours to entrench old identities & with it by default, old enmities.
ii) It impacts on our “liberties”- it influences & in a growing number of cases, dictates, what is allowed to be taught in our education institutions & the way it is taught -how we are allowed to express ourselves in the media & at work places.
iii) Its a drain on the public purse -I’m in position where I see many special language broadcasting services ( not SBS -but smaller concerns) - take hand outs of public money -go broke & come back again for a second or third time for more handouts.

And as for:
1“:Multiculturalism in Australia has demonstrated that our diversity is a value that makes us unique.” (?)
Singapore markets itself as multicultural, as does Malaysia,as does India , Indonesia . If one was a tourist, it is doubtful if one would visit Australia to experience the 'wonders' of MC.

2“It is in our food, Chinatown and Little Italy. It is in our art, our poetry and paintings. our multiculturalism”
How many times have I heard this -people have to read a little more widely than those glossy MC publicity brochures -printed in 103 languages at tax payers expense.Japan has some of the best non-Japanese restaurants & chefs in the world,& owns some noteworthy art collections, but is still resolutely monocultural.

Declaration of interest :
My wife is Chinese
My children speak mandarin & cantonese,
And we all see MC as a con

Have a nice day!
Posted by Horus, Tuesday, 27 February 2007 12:58:44 PM
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Frank, you say you support multiculturalism and that those of us who do not (myself included) are misinformed. Therefore, please define what multiculturalism means in terms of its impact on law, civil liberties and culture, so that we can get rid of the name calling and discuss multiculturalism on a common understanding of what the term means when applied to gov't policy.

Also, let's stop making a bogeyman out of "Western values". No culture can claim to be perfect, but if there is one thing that Western culture has got right, it is that it believes in democracy, freedom of speech and religion, and the rights of the individual. Find me another culture which has those values at its core and then we can discuss whether Western values should be privileged over other cultural values.
Posted by Gekko, Tuesday, 27 February 2007 1:09:04 PM
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Well said Boaz.

I am not quite sure about the outrage at Tamworth is all about. Tamworth have the right to refuse the imposition of migrants from incompatible cultures like Sudan into their small town by the government.Why would refugees want to live out there anyway? The real reason why African refugees are being spread out across the country is to avoid the creation of impoverished ghettoes typical in other parts of the world. This strategy of spreading out immigrants also highlights the importance of Anglo stock as the essential glue to Australian society. If this were not the case, any nationality could set up a city on its own and become prosperous. Instead migrants need to be welded onto pre-existing Anglo society. This is assimilition not multiculturalism.Sorry Jieh-Yung Lo, a rubbish article.
Posted by davo, Tuesday, 27 February 2007 1:10:22 PM
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While pollies distort the language to send approving messages to bigots I suppose we need articles like this.
It's impossible to argue that Australia has been anything but multicultural in recent centuries.
It's the "-ism" on the end that confuses some of us.
I've read dozens of definitions of multiculturalism and never read anything that encourages anyone to put their “allegiances to original culture ahead of national loyalty”. Ridiculous. The possibility that some group somewhere believes this doesn't negate the intent of the various policies around the country. The narrow mindset of the current idealogues in Canberra also causes them to believe such childish distortions as most teachers being "marxists" and that listening to the ABC causes you to be indoctrinated with a leftist ideology.
Silly sausages.
Of course we have benefited hugely from the contribution of multilingual migrants. This should not need to be said and I never want to return to the Ozzie culture of the 1940s I remember so well. It's good to see some of the "values" of that culture disappearing into obscurity.
Posted by Henery, Tuesday, 27 February 2007 1:33:57 PM
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Re Henery :
“This should not need to be said and I never want to return to the Ozzie culture of the 1940s I remember so well. It's good to see some of the "values" of that culture disappearing into obscurity“

Even if Australia had not adopted (had imposed) MC.
It is a certainty that the Australia of 2007 would not have been the same Australia of 1940.

The Japan of 2007 is a much better place than the Japan of 1940, 1950 or 1960
The Sth Korea of 2007 is not the Sth Korea of 1940.
(but they don’t owe it to MC!)

You don’t need MC to change -to modernise -or even to diversify.
Posted by Horus, Tuesday, 27 February 2007 2:02:21 PM
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“Multiculturalism in Australia has demonstrated that our diversity is a value that makes us unique”

Yes, uniquely stupid.

“We have had a very successful migration program where we have welcomed more than six million people since World War II and provided them with the opportunity to begin a new life and contribute to the making of this great country.”

Excessive immigration since WWII has scarred the environment, caused extinction of native fauna, ruined the lot of aborigines, introduced plant and animal pests, polluted our oceans, polluted our fresh water and now there is not even enough fresh water to go around. Each migrant that comes here costs the country enormously in terms of the energy and infrastructure needed to support their lifestyle. Most immigrants, especially ones from developing countries have a very mean understanding of our ecology and respect it even less. Economically the benefits of immigration are zero. Thanks to immigration housing affordability has never been worse. In Sydney an average income will not allow you to buy a reasonable house, let alone rent one. How is that a great country? I could go on and on, but I don’t have the time.

“Recent events in Tamworth and Cronulla suggest racist elements still exist in some quarters. My fear, as an individual who is part of one of the most successful multicultural societies in the world today, is that our society is changing for the worse.”

Yes it is getting worse – thanks to multiculturalism. Had Lebanese and black African migrants never come here, there would never have been riots in Cronulla, nor objections to Sudanese in Tamworth. Both the beforementioned countries have been unstable for many decades. What hope is there that migrants from broken down countries will better Australia? Mushy is the right word.
Posted by Robg, Tuesday, 27 February 2007 2:02:25 PM
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Amber 300 and Horus are correct. Multiculturalism seperates us into tribes and it is good to see the start of its demise, by both Labor and Liberal. MC never worked and as the Leb Muslims have shown, it only takes one group not to recognise other cultures as valid and the whole thing collapses. MC was a phylosephy which wanted to foster seperate development, to become a federation of ethnic cultures, not one community.

There is no way MC can survive without Government support and the spending of millions of taxpayers dollars to keep the MC industry going.

We have been a multi-racial community ever since the first fleet but not MC. People in our society can have many differences but must share a common respect for our law and social standards. That is what will unite us again.
Posted by Banjo, Tuesday, 27 February 2007 2:08:20 PM
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I was implying (perhaps obscurely) that I believe that the challenges posed to the 1940s ocker culture by the European migrants of the 1950s improved our society immensely. I saw it happen. The ockers whinged in a manner similar to many of the writers above. I suggest that Japan and Korea still have much to learn about living in harmony with other cultures. Maybe a migration program would be beneficial.
Posted by Henery, Tuesday, 27 February 2007 2:12:02 PM
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Gecko, it takes two minutes it takes to find Australia's policy on Multiculturalism. (http://www.immi.gov.au/living-in-australia/a-diverse-australia/government-policy/australians-together/current-policy/principles.htm)

The policy is about 'a culturally diverse, accepting and open society, united through a shared future, a commitment to our nation, and our democratic institutions and values' It has four underlying principles:

1. Responsibilities of all: to support those basic structures and principles of Australian society which guarantee our freedom and equality and enable diversity to flourish.

2. Respect: subject to the law, the right of all Australians to express their own culture and beliefs and a reciprocal obligation to respect the right of others to do the same.

3. Fairness: an entitlement to equality of treatment and opportunity so that we can all to contribute to the social, political and economic life of Australia, free from discrimination on the grounds of race, culture, religion, language, location, gender or place of birth.

4. Benefits for all: all Australians benefit from productive diversity, ie. the significant cultural, social and economic dividends arising from the diversity of our population.

Now I know that people like Davos and Horus will choose to ignore Government Multicultural policy and continue to find a 'Real' and 'sinister' Multiculturalsim that they think encourages old enmities, dictates what is taught in schools, restricts free speech and drains the public purse.

No amount of facts or reference to proper definitions of Multiculturalism will shift their thinking. Why do you and they continue to trumpet the old myth that Multicullturalism and 'Western' values - what I call universal values - are at odds? Like you, I believe in democracy, freedom of speech and religion, and the rights of the individual - AND I believe in multiculturalism. Let's have no more of these false and deceptive dichotomies.
Posted by FrankGol, Tuesday, 27 February 2007 2:18:32 PM
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PART_2_of_2

He, (The_Author) being Chinese, of ALL people should know exactly how his own mob have taken over the economies of most south east Asian countries !

Lets be clear on where the Yung_Lo’s interest lie.

[Jieh-Yung is a Policy/Project Officer of the Ethnic Communities’ Council of Victoria and Executive Member of Chinese Culture Monthly]

A member of not one but TWO racist organizations. Yes, you read correctly ‘racist’.

Why ‘racist’ ? Simple.. what does an ‘ethnic communities council’ do ? it advances the interests of ETHNIC communities.. (as opposed to the interests of the WHOLE community) and that... is discrimination based on race.
Chinese Culture Monthly ? That is clearly an example of the building up of ONE_ethnic community rather than_ALL_of_Australia-thus is racist.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-15999891.html (1994)

[In Indonesia, where they are less than 4 per cent of the population, they have 75 per cent of the wealth. In Thailand, Chinese represent 8 per cent of the population but control 80 per cent of the wealth. The numbers are even more amazing in the Philippines: less than 2 per cent and 70 per cent.]

http://www.etan.org/et99/h-rights/unjan3.htm

[The perception among average non-Chinese Indonesians is that the Chinese control the economy in collaboration with Indonesian power elites].

PERCEPTION ? good grief.. I LIVED with this as a day2day REALITY in Malaysia for 8 yrs.
It was as obvious as dogs testicles on a grasshopper. It was just a fact of life. The politically powerful Malays were in bed with the technology rich Chinese.

Who awarded the contract for the Fast Train from KLIA to KL ? Malay... who did the job ? Chinese!
Just as with Muslims (cf Professor Raphael Israeli) there is a critical mass which leads to political and social upheaval of a violent kind, Chinese (and Indian) create a similar economic situation when the established population is mainly indigenous. This is a plain verifiable fact. Most race_riots in Malaysia and Indonesia can be traced back to THIS.

So, here we have Yung_lo giving us ‘she’ll be right mate’ on cultural diversity, and Irf and FellowHuman on religious_diversity.

DEPT of IMMIG_and_CITIZENSHIP_add “ASSIMILATION”!
Posted by BOAZ_David, Tuesday, 27 February 2007 3:01:52 PM
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Racism is alive and well in Australia. And a wonderful tool for politicians to get Australians to take their collective eye of the ball.

For all you Anglo Australians, the greatest number, by far, of people who have lived here for many years, enjoying all the benefits of Australia, but NEVER (a Boazy trick, I know)EVER swearing allegiance to this nation and its laws (or values for that matter) are citizens from Great Britain. How treacherous is that? Don't they want to drape the Aussie flag over their shoulders and scream Aussie, Aussie, oi, oi, oi?

If we didn't have Chinese or Lebanese immigrants for you lot to insult and denigrate you would be arguing about whether Catholics or Protestants are the evil ones (like they do in homogenous, monocultural Ireland) and as the wonderful 'glue' of Australia used to do not so very long ago. Remember that? I myself am not too sure about the C of E mob, they want to join forces with the One True Church. As long as they know we are fully into indoctrination, no diversity or independent thought.

The real threat to Australian values is the path towards pure Capitalism we are taking, where we are in service of THE ECONOMY. Not new citizens of whichever cultural background. We are becoming a dog eat dog society, and if somebody looks a bit different to me, or speaks differently, so much the easier to trample on him and make me believe it is deserved.
Posted by yvonne, Tuesday, 27 February 2007 4:31:58 PM
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Robg,

Its very easy to blame the new Immigrants for destruction in society and then hide the racist attitudes in Australia. The racist never gave new African migrants a chance.The conflicts with Muticulturalism in Australia shed some light to the world on how racist some Australians really are.

In Namibia the Native San people who are the world oldest culture have allowed Irish, Swedes,Asians into their country even though they have so little and have little exposure to others. In some parts of Australia racism is so deep that its second nature.
Posted by Amel, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 1:25:45 AM
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"We should tolerate everything except intolerance, and even that we should try to tolerate as far as possible".

Linus Pauling, Nobel Peace Prize winner.
Posted by Riddley Walker, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 5:14:45 AM
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Yvonne: "The real threat to Australian values is the path towards pure Capitalism we are taking, where we are in service of THE ECONOMY. Not new citizens of whichever cultural background. We are becoming a dog eat dog society, and if somebody looks a bit different to me, or speaks differently, so much the easier to trample on him and make me believe it is deserved. "

Amel: "The conflicts with Muticulturalism in Australia shed some light to the world on how racist some Australians really are. "

Riddley Walker: "We should tolerate everything except intolerance, and even that we should try to tolerate as far as possible".

FrankGol: "I believe in democracy, freedom of speech and religion, and the rights of the individual - AND I believe in multiculturalism. Let's have no more of these false and deceptive dichotomies."

Hear hear! Nice to see some sanity breaking out in the thread.

Boaz should really take his medication, and his odious fellow travellers could do us a favour by scuttling back under their rocks. What positive effect can the promotion of hateful ideas possibly achieve?
Posted by CJ Morgan, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 7:16:41 AM
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It was obviously a good article, the reactions to it have been very revealing.

Boaz, your business and livelihood are clearly under threat, which puts a sympathetic context around your observations. But you have said some very strange things along the way.

>>What absolute and total ROT ! I've seldom heard such blatant self contradictory statements as this "Multi"(Diverse) + "Unifying" (bringing together)<<

In logic there is absolutely nothing contradictory about "unifying" and "diverse". A population can be diverse in terms of their individual affluence, for example, but that doesn't stop attempts to unify them under a single - for example, political - banner.

>>I'll repeat my own mantra again "When was the last time you saw a Union marching chanting "The Workers Divided, will never be defeated"?
Thats right..NEVER.. what you DO hear is "The workers UNITED will etc"

The objective of the chant is to point out that unity is strength. Otherwise, being a typically diverse bunch - a few RCs here, some Prods over there, some Commies in this corner and a bunch of recent immigrants in that - they would stray from the central message.

So the process is to move them away from diversity, towards unity, bound by some very specific constraints: the ability to negotiate collectively.

Afterwards, they go back to being Micks and Prods, Commies and so on.

People are different, have different life goals and aspirations, support different footy teams and even different footy codes, like different food and wines, believe in different gods or the absence thereof and so on.

Diversity is a natural part of being a human being on this planet.

That you fear it, is clear:

>>cultural development as Australians since European settlement is now ... subject to the various ethno/linguistic/cultural pressures from all the various migrants as they compete to establish their own culture as top dog<<

You are concerned that "they" will take over. That has absolutely nothing to do with cultural diversity, just a normal expression of paranoia from someone who believes absolutely that his way of life is the only one that is "right".
Posted by Pericles, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 8:30:53 AM
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oooooKK.. polarizaton is the stuff of good debates !

Now we can move toward a position of better understanding.

The whole POINT of my posts is to direct our attention to that overall focus point and goal which we SHOULD have as our objective.

The question is..WHAT is that overall objective ?

To Pericles and others, it is our diverse unity where we can all carry on our merry ways in different directions, but suddenly when there is a threat.. we all will miraculously pull together and be ONE.

Lets test that ?

The threat happens to be a massive influx of Chinese capital buying up properties in urban areas, causing the price of land and houses to skyrocket out of the reach of ordinary Aussies. One particular ethnic group with close cultural and racial ties to China, has been aware of this for some time, and has proceeded to buy up property in advance. When the crunch comes, its no headache for them.

UNITY ?

The Saudi government decides to make Australia the next major recipient of 'aid' in the form of funding for massive 40,000 person mosques in prominent locations so as to highlight the religion of Islam in the skyline of say Melbourne. In fact..they bought up the property next to St Pauls Cathedral and the plans for the mosque show it will dwarf St Pauls considerably.

There is an outcry by 'rednecks' who claim it will negatively impact on our cultural fabric, but they are fobbed off as intolerant racists and ignored. Tolerance rules the day, and the mosque is approved by the cities enlightened and progressive council.

UNITY ?

Angkor Wat is experiencing massive numbers of Thai migrants. The redneck racists warn "If you let too many Thais in they might seek to take over" of course these racist rednecks are rebuked in the name of tolerance and nothing is done.
HISTORICAL FACT : In 1431 the Thais sacked Angkor itself. The Khmers had abandoned the city completely by 1434. Eight hundred years of Khmer authority in the region came to an end.
http://goasia.about.com/cs/azsiteindex/a/aa031700_3.ht
Posted by BOAZ_David, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 12:17:27 PM
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Boaz, what you are afraid of is not a person of a particular race or religion, it is capitalism. Capitalists without any thought of the social capital of a society, making a profit, the larger the better is the bottom line without any regard to the consequences.

It is Australia's elected government and their belief that making money is the most noble of all pursuits and will bring happiness to all. Anyone who may query that is immediately relegated to 'looney left' , 'against business', 'longing for a nanny-state', etc.

Chinese people are not the only people with a love of making money and disregard for society. Wealth means power to make more money.

Many Anglo Australian developers and investors have made obscene amounts of money in the property development. Housing unaffordability is not the fault of Chinese people.

Australians are a wonderful mix of people. I'm European, but give me Australia's vibrancy any time over monotonous monoculture. Long live multi-culturalism.
Posted by yvonne, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 12:54:33 PM
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BOAZ-David

Your brain flipped a couple of post ago when accusing Jieh-Yung Lo of being racist twice over because he was an Officer of the Ethnic Communities’ Council of Victoria and Executive Member of Chinese Culture Monthly.

'Ethnic' means pertaining to people. We are all ethnic - we all have an ethnicity - whether we be of Chinese, Greek or Anglo-Saxon heritage. Is a person of Scottish heritage being racist when she joins the Highlanders Pipe Band? When she's doing that she isn't pursuing the intrests of the WHOLE community, as you put it.

On your logic, you would have to say the editor of the magazine, "This England: Britain's Patriotic Heritage" (Australian office in Sassafras, 3787) is to quote you "clearly an example of the building up of ONE_ethnic community rather than_ALL_of_Australia-thus is racist".

Speaking of examples of racism, you say Jieh-Yung Lo "being Chinese, of ALL people should know exactly how his own mob have taken over the economies of most south east Asian countries !" When you ascribe to one (presumed) member of a 'race' ('his own mob') the presumed characteristics of every member of that 'race', then I think you are not only being racist but you are also being an intellectual clot for such confused logic and poor research. I think you need a month in the sin-bin and to use the time in a clear thinking course.

You could spend the time doing some basic homework on the Ethnic Comunities Council of Victoria (http://www.eccv.org.au/). Have a look at the breadth of membership of Staff and Executive of the EECV. Look also at its statement of purposes - it's not at all like you describe it.

Not one of your better posts David. Try harder!
Posted by FrankGol, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 2:38:55 PM
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With regard to the author of the initial article. Although some of us agree and/or disagree with him. Our posts don't reflect upon him personally, or they shouldn't and mine certainly don't.

He seems like a lovely young man, and am glad to know that we have young people like him.
Posted by amber300, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 3:10:12 PM
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Well, actually, Boaz, yes.

>>To Pericles and others, it is our diverse unity where we can all carry on our merry ways in different directions, but suddenly when there is a threat.. we all will miraculously pull together and be ONE<<

I'm not sure how much more diverse you could get than the British Commonwealth in 1939.

Buddhists, Christians, Muslims and Hindus (and that was just the Burma Rifles) plus a mix of the same from Canada, India, Malaya, Singapore, New Zealand, Australia and South Africa all pulled together, as a matter of course and without complaint.

Other countries with greater apparent cultural similarities but without the Commonwealth ties either came on board late (USA) or remained "neutral" (Ireland).

>>Lets test that ? The threat happens to be a massive influx of Chinese capital buying up properties<<

This is a threat to whom?

Are you seriously suggesting that we should not sell houses to the Chinese? Could you please give me an idea how you would a) introduce such a scheme and b) police it?

>>One particular ethnic group with close cultural and racial ties to China, has been aware of this for some time, and has proceeded to buy up property in advance.<<

I'm still trying to get my head around this. Is your idea that no-one should be allowed to buy property outside their native land? Where, in this scheme of things do you fit OPEC, or GATT, or the EU, or MERCOSUR?

You appear to be exhorting your fellow-countrymen to become entirely insular. Introverted, in fact.

>>The Saudi government decides to make Australia the next major recipient of 'aid' in the form of funding for massive 40,000 person mosques in prominent locations so as to highlight the religion of Islam in the skyline of say Melbourne.<<

Local planning laws should prevent this, whether it is a mosque or a supermarket.

Although, if the Grollo Group got the contract, that is probably a bad bet.
Posted by Pericles, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 3:49:45 PM
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Frank.. my brain didn't flip,its finely_tuned to this issue.
I didn't call the author a 'racist' I said 'involved with 2 racist organizations'. This is not about "him" its about the issue of MC and the role of various bodies re that.
..and Yes.. British ethnic societies are racist.

I'd already seen ECCV during previous excursions into this grazing ground. Such visits only confirmed my views. Here is a sample.

[For over 30 years ECCV has remained the principal liaison point between ethnic communities, government and the wider community in Victoria.]

[ECCV advocates and lobbies all levels of government on behalf of multicultural communities...]

Lets deconstruct this. Key words. "ethnic and multicultural" clearly meaning non mainstream members of society, and those who fall outside the predominant Anglo/Irish/Scot etc members of the community.
Now..I ask.. is this not 'discrimination based on race' ? yes. .it absolutely is! It is differentiating 'non' mainstream from mainstream, and seeks to advance 'their' interests. Why the word 'ethnic' ? Why needed at all ? Does the government discriminate against them ? If it does so, it would be in line with Australian law. ie.. NO Female Genital Mutilation.

Pericles is correct about the Commonwealth and it rising to the task in the face of a World War. No argument there.

No suggestion either of not selling 'any' land to people because they happen to be Chinese or Arab but Planning laws should be subject to an overlay of cultural and social cohesian and solidarity. With strict limits. BUT.. "planning laws" ? aaah.. now we get to the nub of it. I'm waiting with baited breath to see how it goes for the mega mosque in London.
Planning laws are closely connected to VESTED POLITICAL INTEREST.... lets not kid ourselves. My not being able to subdivide my place is connected to Labor wanting the green vote.(while their cousins and business associates buy up land in the growth corridors ?)

Councils makes exceptions.. and are open to corruption.
Australian Nationalism which seeks a united, racially and culturally blended inclusive Australia is a nobler goal than 'multi' culturalism.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 5:54:15 PM
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Here we have a young man who, probably living in an area of Melbourne which has lost the dominant aussie culture, has understandably defined himself by his ethnic heritage. Further, he has invested his career in the multiculti industry. All of a sudden, there's a smoke signal on the horizon, and there's a panic: "the rednecks are coming! the rednecks are coming! how do I look like an aussie? do I blend in or do I fight? what's an aussie? what do they do? what do they say?".

Such highlights the limits of tightening citizenship, because in the large parts of Sydney and Melbourne that have lost their dominant culture, they look around and don't see any aussies and so wouldn't have the faintest idea how to assimilate if they tried. And nor do they have a need to, they're happy in their insular ethnic communities. They're on a completely different channel.

"Critical mass" is indeed the key point. Tightening citizenship, whilst helpful, is again another case of legislation trying to enforce a lost culture. And the sad part about that is no-one wants to be the one enforcing it e.g. hands up who wants to be a police officer in south-west Sydney? So few, they have to lower to entrance standards. Hands up who wants to work for ASIO and chase terrorists in ethnic communities - they too are struggling to find recruits. Hands up who wants to be a nurse? Nah, they can't find them either. They're even struggling to find posties to work in the immersion zones.

JY paints a picture of an "ingrained reality" of multiculture - in his small world it is.

JY's hurt is apparent, he's starting to attack the host with the offensive description of Australia as "some vague, homogeneous set of values that are derived from simply living in the same place.". Ouch. Be careful dude. There's a lot of "Anglo" anger amassing of late. I don't think you want to make it worse, do you?

[continued ...]
Posted by online_east, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 9:22:20 PM
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My interpretation of Cronulla and Tamworth should not give you much cause for concern. I believe tolerance for immigrants was stretched to the max with European and Asian immigrants. The entry of Muslim and Sudanese, however, have exceeded folks' tolerance. They are culturally and/or visually incompatible. Call me racist if you like, but it's not about hate. They are simply too far out of the tolerance range for most folks. It's biological, not racist. Blind Freddy can see that most folks prefer homogeneous communities.

Look at the facts on diversity:
http://ozconservative.blogspot.com/2006/04/what-matters.html

"What gives us a sense of wellbeing? The results of some Australian research might surprise you ... The survey ... connected electorates with high ethnic diversity to low personal wellbeing. The research did not, therefore, support the orthodox idea that we are enriched in our personal lives by multicultural diversity."

The sad fact is diversity is a failure and a weakness. The young folk accept it. The middle aged tolerate it. And the old folk can't even tolerate their tea going cold, let alone immerse themselves in a new life of successive waves of welcoming, unique, unifying, rich tapestry of diverse opportunities.
Posted by online_east, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 9:29:05 PM
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David

You now say you didn't call Jieh-Yung Lo a racist. You are either a dishonest weasel or a fool. You reiterated that Jieh-Yung is an Officer of the ECCV and Executive Member of Chinese Culture Month. You then said they were racist organisations. How can he be a senior member of what you label 'racist organisations' and not himself be a racist? Has he fooled these two racist organisations?

It's like saying Rickie Ponting is a member of the Australian Cricket team but he's not a cricketer.

You assert that the ECCV is a racist organisation because it discriminates against people on the basis of race. Yet you quote from their Purpose: 'For over 30 years ECCV has remained the principal liaison point between ethnic communities, government and the wider community in Victoria.' What part of that mission statement is racist and discriminatory? 'Liaison'? 'Wider community'?

Would you assert that organisations that try to assist people with a disability discriminate against able-bodied people? Or that youth clubs are ageist? Your thinking is all cock-eyed; but I don't think anything I say will change the way you think because you are prejudiced and closed.

You're clutching at straws when you drag into a debate about multiculturalism in Australia a 'mega' mosque proposed for London. Or are you alleging a world conspiracy? Is that what you are getting at with your simplistic economic theory about a 'massive influx of Chinese capital buying up properties in urban areas, causing the price of land and houses to skyrocket out of the reach of ordinary Aussies'. Hitler laid the problems of the world at the feet of another scapegoat. At least you're giving the Muslims a break.

I'm still waiting your answer to my question: why do you find it necessary to distort Jieh-Yung Lo's article? Where did he say or imply: "All your cultural development as Australians since European settlement is now of little value." How did you construct such a weird meaning from the article? A dishonest weasel or a fool?
Posted by FrankGol, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 11:09:05 PM
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Many of us have forebears who (with sincere apologies to the aborigines) cleared the land, built the railways, towns and cities, fought the wars, and developed a stable democratic political system. They built the platform which enabled Australia to continue to invite people from all over the world to settle here and help make, in my opinion, Australia a better place.

Can Jien-Yung Lo see why many of us may have some sense of ownership of the role of welcoming host?
I do not think it polite or indeed wise for ethnic groups to attempt to usurp this role. It is a bit like a guest in a household telling the host how he/she wishes to be treated.
Posted by Goeff, Thursday, 1 March 2007 9:17:06 AM
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Sorry to break it to you, online-east, but Jieh-Yung Lo is every bit as "aussie" as you are. Australia hasn't "lost the dominant aussie culture" - rather, it's changed, and some reactionary "anglos" like you are evidently unhappy about it. So what? It seems to me that it's your problem rather than that of "aussies" who have accepted our changing times.

Goeff: "It is a bit like a guest in a household telling the host how he/she wishes to be treated"

Sorry to break it to you mate, but Jieh-Yung Lo is no more a "guest" in this country than you are. He is not only an Australian citizen, but he was born here.

FrankGol: "A dishonest weasel or a fool?"

I think possibly that he's both, based on the unadulterated drivel he posts here incessantly.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Thursday, 1 March 2007 10:03:21 AM
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To all Fellow Australians

It is a relief to read some posts that are not filled with racist hatred and distrust.

I'm a 'new Australian' myself, I chose to become an Australian as opposed to a Canadian or an American (yes I had a choice). I get so angry whenever someone with English ancestry born here insinuates that a non-Anglo naturalized immigrant or non-Anglo Australian born person is somehow not 'Aussie', more like a barely tolerated guest, and therefore not entitled to make any comment. Is this an 'Australian Value'? I thought the whole point of a free participatory democracy is that citizens can voice different ideas and opinions.

I would like to point out to you that especially those of us who came from non English backgrounds think very carefully about what it means to live here and value Australian citizenship and embrace Australian values and laws. That's why we publicly declare our allegiance to Australia in a citizenship ceremony. So maybe, the 'most' Aussie are those of us who had a choice to become one and those who happened to be born here from English back ground should keep quiet. We know what alternatives there are and we had to go through often enormous effort to become Australian, you didn't. There was no effort on your part. See, that's deeply offensive and hurtful to you now.

The largest group of long-term Australian residents who refuse to declare their allegiance to Australia are in fact 'compatible' British citizens. Think about that.

Some of us speak other languages, some of us have very different cultural traditions, we cannot deny that or negate that. Even between families of the same cultural group there are different 'family' cultural differences and traditions.

As I said before, the 'Anglos' should be happy that now there are other people for them to hate and fear. Not so long ago they spat amongst each other where the issue was whether you were Protestant or Catholic. It can be tricky to identify those, thank goodness for the Lebanese or Asians, they're much easier to pick.
Posted by yvonne, Thursday, 1 March 2007 11:19:39 AM
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I find most of this multicultural debate most amusing.

Those arguing against immigration hysterically point at the muslim world and say look! Ahh! They're going to destroy us!

They can say that this is the first time in world history such a united, huge enemy is at our gates, and we ignore the situation at our peril.

Sure. Why not.

But what's amusing is I bet all that was said during the whole 'yellow peril' scare. AaaH! They're an economic powerhouse the likes of which the world has never seen! WhOoO!

Were they right? Technically, sure, why not. But mostly, they were wrong.

It's the same thing throughout history. Over and over. Each time, the focus is on unrest in a certain area - cue Cronulla riots - and point to the doom that is ahead.

Boaz - I've no doubt you'll read this and consider me blind to the danger. I appreciate you at least come from a place of concern for the future, but to me, I see you viewing this situation from a prism of christianity and christianity and the muslim faith represent the two most volatile religions in history. While you mean well, I've no doubt the knights that charged off on the crusades felt they were working for the greater good.

This isn't to say we can't benefit from better assimilation practices without being accused of racism. Sure, english tests, and having immigration officers pop in to ensure people are settling in okay aren't bad ideas.

But the paranoia and hysterics that can be seen on these threads...
Posted by TurnRightThenLeft, Thursday, 1 March 2007 11:43:39 AM
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Dear Frank, a little while ago, when Bob Brown said Pauline Hanson was a “political bloodsucker” and also that she was making ‘racist comments’ I made an error of quote by combining the 2 statements as follows: “Bob Brown called Pauline Hanson a blood sucking racist”. I was reminded of the error of my ways repeatedly and loudly by my friend CJ Morgan. So, perhaps I should call on him now to correct you :)
I also had the same mind as you that to say a person makes ‘racist’ statements means they are racist. But, CJ. put me straight there.

Ok..mildly sarcastic digs aside, yes I would have to agree the author ‘IS’ a racist, but let me give this its correct weighting. I don’t consider he is consciously making ‘racist’ choices, nor do I feel he lies awake at night plotting his next ‘move’ in his race related crusade. No.. its not like that with most people.

Its more ethnocentrism. Now using your own wider definition of that, the fact that he places ‘ethnic communities’ in the centre “Liasing with the government and wider community” is adequate testimony, and indeed confirms that they are seeing ‘ethnic’ communities as something separate from mainstream and I have a simple question- ‘why’ ?

My grandparents did not come to Australia to remain ‘English’ (mums side) or ‘Scottish’ (Dads side) they came here to be Australians.

How I worked out the ‘implication’ of his article about ‘prevailing culture having little value’ is this,
-the existence of ‘ethnic’ organizations, putting all non mainstream groups together AGAINST the mainstream. Why do I characterize them as ‘against’ ? again, an easyone. -If they were ‘for’, they would not form specific ethnic organisations but see the value in the mainstream and transparently participate. It is as obvious as a small group of people meeting for a barbeque and 2 of them happen to be of the same ethnicity, and they immediately form an exclusive clique...based on race :) This happens even at churches -often.

Yvonne_and_TRTL Next post will reply. (Yvonne..don’t despair_this is debate :)
Posted by BOAZ_David, Thursday, 1 March 2007 1:44:09 PM
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David

We are making progress but your slipperiness with words is an impediment. You were right first time - to say someone is active in a racist organisation is to say they are racist. Of course, you can be wrong in your first claim - that the organisation is racist.

Your distinction between intended and unintended racism is useful. Intended racism is less amenable to remedy, it seems to me.

Humpty Dumpty told Alice, 'When I use a word...it means just what I choose it to mean...', But “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”

I think you are playing word games (intentional or unintentional) when you say that Jieh-Yung Lo places ‘ethnic communities’ in the centre when he liaises with the government and the wider community. The word 'liaison' is a neutral term to describe the establishment and maintenance of contact between entities. It describes a mutually-desired interaction. Despite your wishful thinking, engaging in 'liaison', does NOT confirm that the ECCV "are seeing ‘ethnic’ communities as something separate from mainstream".

Nor does the existence of 'ethnic' organisations put all non-mainstream groups together AGAINST the mainstream. Your analysis is flawed. Quote: "It is as obvious as a small group of people meeting for a barbeque and 2 of them happen to be of the same ethnicity, and they immediately form an exclusive clique...based on race. This happens even at churches -often." So what?

What are we to make of the Australians who famously gather together in Earl's Court in London? Are they being racist? Funny if they are, because last time I looked there were Australians of various heritage backgrounds gathered together drinking Fosters. And let's disband the Scottish band in Doncaster too.

Who do you mix with David? Perhaps you'll concede that there are positive benefits to seeking the company of similar kind? It's not always subversive of the total good.

The trouble with straw men arguments David is that they can come back to haunt you.
Posted by FrankGol, Thursday, 1 March 2007 4:21:59 PM
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Suprise, suprise. Another non-Western minority group representative promoting ethnic separatism. Another minority representative thumbing their nose at the notion of common culture and shared national identity. The Western, European-derived culture of mainstream Australia is simply dismissed by the author as "some vague, homogenous set of values that are derived from simply living in the same place."

Well Mr. Jieh-Yung Lo, your article has merely provided yet another reason why multiculturalism needs to be completely expunged before this inherently divisive idealogy completely mutates this nation into a mere co-habitating space for disconnected ethnic tribes.

Speaking of the Chinese, their record of supressing minorities and enforcing cultural conformity in mainland China speaks for its self. Moreover, BOAZ is correct in pointing out that ethnic Chinese minorities outside of China have an unpromising record in terms of integration. Their record in Australia has been only slightly less dismal.

The author is of this nauseatingly insipid article peddles the oft-repeated fallacy that Australia has always been a multi-cultural nation. For goodness sake, learn to distinguish between multi-ethnic and multi-cultural. Australia has always been multi-ethnic, but the pernicious idealogy of multiculturalism has only been rammed down the throats of Australians within the last few decades. Not that many of these new migrant groups have much understanding of or respect for Australian history.
Posted by Oligarch, Thursday, 1 March 2007 6:21:42 PM
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CJMorgan, I think you will find that my target was ethnic groups, not their staff. If you could comment on the role of active, staffed ethnic groups and their effects on Australian society I would be greatly interested.

Yvonne, you wrote ‘See, that's deeply offensive and hurtful to you now’. I cannot see anything you said that was deeply offensive and hurtful.
I am merely suggesting that the ethnic councils/groups should show more consideration to those who have come before and built the platform to which they moved.
At least they could show more consideration than that shown by the author of this article.
Posted by Goeff, Thursday, 1 March 2007 8:40:38 PM
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Am not surprized to see this article as the author has a vested interest. He/or she is part of the multicultural industry and would loose the position now held as MC has been dumped by both major political parties.

MC is an ideology that would not and could not work. It has been proped up by millions of taxpayers dollars, federal and state, for about 35 years. "Unity in diversity" has to be the biggest con ever.

If the multiculturalists want to blame someone for the demise of MC, they should look no further than the Leb Muslims who put themselves above or apart from every other culture, and want special consideration from all others. The Croats and Serbs did not help either, by fighting each other.

There may well be some similar articles appear as some of the hardliners try to hang onto their positions.

I look forward to the burial of MC.
Posted by Banjo, Thursday, 1 March 2007 9:39:27 PM
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TRTL, if I was a non-Muslim immigrant, I would be offended by your comparison of their teething problems with those of the Muslims. Over and over, people like yourself scoff and sigh and wave your Yoda finger and dismiss the Muslim problem as petty little squabbles between new acquaintances that are repeated endlessly throughout history. Cue the Queen of Denmark:

"And when we are tolerant, we must know whether it is because of convenience or conviction."

Convenient in what form for you, I wonder?

The real message JY is sending through his article is a rallying call to all the minorities to band together and resist the dominant culture. JY is sounding like a Mirko protege by describing Australia as "set of values that are derived from simply living in the same place". But I warn JY not to hitch his wagon to Mirko's vacuous notion that "there is no scope for deriving pride from nationality". An alliance of ethnic minorities and left-wing globalists will gladly attack the host and tear it down. But the problem is what will they replace it with?

If y'all succeed in tearing down nationhood and national values, then I see only one dominant culture to surface out of the resulting vacuum - Islam. Defining yourself by "what you are not" is all fine and dandy whilst you're tearing down the dominant culture, but only if you have something to replace it with. Who will win the battle after the aussie culture is gone? Will Mirko be right and the world will "define themselves by their common humanity"? Nah, too vague and weak for the masses. That leaves the inevitable battle between ethnic groups. And if your one binding mantra is "tolerance", then my money would then be on the Muslims.

JY and Mirko would be wise to band with the host and resolve the growing Muslim/Leb/Arab problem whilst it is small - otherwise we'll all be conquered by their bellies.
Posted by online_east, Thursday, 1 March 2007 10:18:46 PM
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Frank... yes we are making progress, but it would be enhanced by avoiding 'name calling' :) believe it or not, you have actually added to an extensive list I thought was exhausted. "weasel" is a new one.

ANALYSIS is probably required before making any more sweeping statements about whether ethnic organizations are 'racist' or merely ethnocentric. My major problem with "ethnic" associations is this. Why do they need to exist ? Is the government so closed minded to what is going on that they need specifically ethnic lobby groups ?
Possibly. But is it not preferrable for people with issues re the government policy to take them to their local member who will then take it to Parliament? Personally I think so. Given that an evenue for addressing the concerns of citizens exists, it raises questions about what ethnic associations are really for ?

If its to do with Migration, changing laws and policy, then I have worries. If they tried for example to loosen up immig policy regarding polygamous or child marriages, I'd be on their doorstep the next day !

So, "ethnic" associations (and this includes my religous mob (as in 'Christian') such as the "Evangelical CHINESE Church" in Box Hill South) whereas the Bible says

[26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.]

I would like this same principle to apply to our own self awareness in cultural/citizenship terms. We are 'Australians' first and 'ethnic' this or that second.

Yvonne,
I don't fear capitalism as much as I hate the idea of it being unrestrained, just as I hate the idea of unrestrained socialism.
I'm a middle of the road bloke. The one thing worse than either of those extremes, is when it is connected with particular ethnic groups who use either of them for political advantage.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Friday, 2 March 2007 5:31:01 AM
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Multiculturalism is wrong. All this rubbish has given Australia, is a bunch of different races and nationalities who compete to be the top dog, leaving us with racial hatred. I have worked amongst many Asian's and what I learnt is just how much they hate each other. Even more, hate the white Australian.

It is common for Asian storekeepers to refuse service to a white Australian in Sydney. Is this what multiculturalism is all about? I say yes, it is. We are seeing those, especially the particular Islamic lot who want all of us to live by Sharia Law, effectively abolising Aboriginal culture. I can see why Aboriginals were standing beside the white Australian at Cronulla beach.

I do not advocate the White Australia policy but that of intergration. If Howard were serious, he would test every single person of immigrant status backwards of 3 generations. Should they fail the ability to speak English, instant deportation and all assets taken by the government.

Multiculturalism is nothing but a racial wedge. Having to hear immigrants say we have no culture, having schools ban our national anthem, etc...is reason enough to put an end to this farcical and divisive policy.
Posted by Spider, Friday, 2 March 2007 10:49:14 AM
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This "racial hatred" is so ridiculously exaggerated it isn't funny. Every conflict, every crime that is committed by a minority is chalked up to this problem - and how can you argue against it, except to say, that perhaps other factors are more signficant?

This article is hardly revolutionary material. It is referring to the soft and friendly kind of MC.

Sure, there are real problems associated with political correctness giving too much sway to minorities in some instances. I won't argue against that, because it's true.

But to attack this article? Come on, attack it if you will for being too mushy. Because despite the title, that's what it is.

But for goodness sake, if you're seeing demons in this pretty warm and fuzzy piece of writing, I suggest you calm down a little.

And Online_east: "TRTL, if I was a non-Muslim immigrant, I would be offended by your comparison of their teething problems with those of the Muslims."

Well, if they're insulted they can speak up... although it isn't really relevant, I happen to be a non-muslim immigrant myself.
Posted by TurnRightThenLeft, Friday, 2 March 2007 12:37:19 PM
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In Japan there is an interesting phenomenon- all major crime is perpetrated by the gaijin (foreigners)- with white people seen as a major problem. Just ask a local- they can probably quote chapter and verse about how disrespectful, untrustworthy and plain criminal most gaijin are.

Mostly it’s a crock- like anywhere (even Australia) most crime is committed by locals but that doesn’t sell papers. Lurid spreads about the general perfidy of white people does. It makes everyone feel better about their own little prejudices.

But what is most interesting is that there is a grain of truth in there. Having lived over here for almost 3 years I think that I see why.

Like every culture, the Japanese society is built on a common understanding. They expect everyone to act in a certain way with social taboos built in at a subconscious level. Their legal, financial and social systems are built with those taboos in mind.

The problem is, because the taboos are instinctive and everyone is assumed to have them, they become blindspots. Why guard against something if no one is going to violate it? Even better- how do you guard against something that you cannot even see?

Now- add the gaijin. Raised in a completely different social dynamic with different taboos built in, they look at the Japanese system and see the blindspots- clear as day. You can see it and play the locals against their own assumptions. Understandably, when these schemes are discovered they have a greater impact on the reputation of the gaijin. Because not only were the schemes taking place, but the gaijin were acting in a way that was an anathema to the local culture.

Exactly the same situation must happen in Australia. Foreigners are able to see the weak spots in our own systems simply by using our own assumptions of civilized behaviour against us.

CONT…
Posted by mylakhrion, Friday, 2 March 2007 2:35:54 PM
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CONT…

In this situation, rather than closing our eyes to other cultures, we actually should be actively engaging the responsible members of our ethnic societies to help us close those holes. We should embrace multiculturalism at a legal, political and social level for no other reason that to make us more bulletproof.

A classic example has got to be the current disaster in Iraq. A complete lack of understanding of the basic social dynamics of the region led the overconfident US into a quagmire. Why? Because they assumed everyone would act the way they would. In hindsight it is a ludicrous position but they fell into it anyway. Why? Because there was a complete lack of anyone available to tell them that they were stepping into the quagmire in the first place!

O/S companies working in Japan fall victim to the same mentality all the time. The locals run them around in the most comic fashion because they fail to understand the basics of the culture. Simple things such as understanding that ‘hai’ does not necessarily mean ‘yes’, but could also mean ‘I understand you’. That kind of thing makes every difference when negotiating a contract!

Imagine how strong Australia could become if we build into our political, economic and diplomatic systems the understanding that not only is everyone different, but everyone is both weak and strong because everyone is different. Imagine how strong you can be by confronting and eliminating the blindspots in our own systems. By embracing and focusing the advantages that come from having direct access to multiple cultures we can make ourselves unbeatable.

No- multiculturalism could be something much more than just ‘mush’
Posted by mylakhrion, Friday, 2 March 2007 2:36:47 PM
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mylakhrion

Thank you for that interesting, intelligent and well-reasoned contibution. You argument for multiculturalism is likely to appeal to those Australians who can see that it is their best interests. That line of argument would appeal particularly to people who want to do business with diverse groups.

I like your approach too because it suggests that culltural understanding really is a mutual activity. Smart people tune in to the 'other' without assuming that moral superiority or inferiority is related to difference.

While I suport your rationale I am also comfortable with a human rights rationale - that multicultural policies - set in a framework of Australian law - preserve the rights of people to maintain languages, cultural practices and religious beliefs while at the same time ensuring that Australian services (e.g. health and education) are accessible to newly arrived people. Moreover, it's pragmatic in that people who have those rights are both more likely to settle in successfully and more likely to give a commitment to Australian law and democratic values.
Posted by FrankGol, Friday, 2 March 2007 4:04:15 PM
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Yes, I agree with the likes of CJ Morgan and Turnlefteft. Lets all get together and get all sensitive and talk about how we should all give the good old muslims etc a fair go. After all, we are all decent, fair people aren't we? All those other places in the world with their loving religions are wonderful utopias, and we want to transport some of the love here, don't we. We wouldn't want to be seen as rude, or intolerant, that would be the ultimate insult. I think we should go a little further and make foreigners feel at home, especially Muslims, by importing a few of their own little home grown rules. Lets start with financial penalties for non christians / anglo Australians in the form of higher interest rates etc, force women to uncover their heads, then remove any form of religious worship except for Christianity. Surely these laws would be great for Australia, because Muslims do it, and we can't utter a word against these poor misunderstood souls. We should get together, CJ, TRTL and other likeminded, wonderfully humane people, and have a peace rally against the rednecks!
Posted by trueaussie, Friday, 2 March 2007 8:38:24 PM
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FrankGol wrote: "Why do you and they continue to trumpet the old myth that Multicullturalism and 'Western' values - what I call universal values - are at odds? Like you, I believe in democracy, freedom of speech and religion, and the rights of the individual - AND I believe in multiculturalism. Let's have no more of these false and deceptive dichotomies."

FrankGol, your ardent support for multiculturalism reveals a simplistic and overly optimistic view of human nature. Are you honestly asserting that Western values are universally accepted by other cultures? Do you even accept that Western culture and values exist? Are you claiming that mainstream Australia should simply disown its values, culture, and heritage in favour of cultural relativism?

I wholeheartedly agree with Gunnar K. A. Njalsson is his assessment that multiculturalism is an oddity confined to a Western urban environment and cannot survive as an ideology outside it. Some variants of multiculturalism, he argues, may equip non-egalitarian cultural groups with power and influence. This, in turn, may alter the value system of the larger society.

In short, Western civilisation is the product of a culmination of experiences by our ancestors, for example the Enlightenment. In comparison, non-western cultures are not merely different, but should be viewed as backward. Australia, as a Western nation, should therefore promote its own values and culture over those of non-Western minority groups in this country. Yes, and the means an acceptance of Australia's overwhelmingly European heritage.

Paul Scheffer, a Dutch critic of multiculturalism, notes that homogeneity and integration are necessary for a society. He states:

* a huge influx of people from diverse cultural backgrounds, in combination with multiculturalism, resulted in spontaneous ethnic segregation.
* multiculturalism and immigration led to adaptation problems such as school drop-out, unemployment, and high crime rates.
* a society which does not respect itself also has no value for immigrants
* immigrants must always lose their own culture - that is the price of immigration, a "brutal bargain" (quote from Norman Podhoretz)

Multiculturalism is the antithesis of nationalism. As a firm believer in the nation-state, I find this unacceptable.
Posted by Oligarch, Friday, 2 March 2007 9:23:47 PM
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Oligarch

You ask me: (a) Are you honestly asserting that Western values are universally accepted by other cultures? My answer is first that 'Western values' is a meaningless term, and second that no values are universally accepted although I wish a few were were. See my earlier post for a tentative list.

You ask me: Do you even accept that Western culture and values exist? My answer is that I need to know what you mean? Precisely which values are 'Western'? For example do you mean capitalist values or socialistic ones or nihilistic ones? In 'Western' nations I witness cheating, geed, lying and dishonesty. Are these what you mean?

You ask: Are you claiming that mainstream Australia should simply disown its values, culture, and heritage in favour of cultural relativism? I am certainly not in favour of cultural relativism. I want to know what you mean by 'mainstream Australia' and 'its values, culture, and heritage'. Are these the things that John Howard trots out every now and then when he wants to distract voters?

This is not playing word games. You are using language which is ill-defined but you are acting as if you and I both agree on their meaning. Most are weasel words used by thick-head politicians when they want people to have sawdust for brains.

You throw in more nonsense terms - 'spontaneous ethnic segregation' (like spontaneous combustion); 'a society which does not respect itself' (in the morning?); ' immigrants must always lose their own culture' (how very careless); and 'Multiculturalism is the antithesis of nationalism' (that's good).

For every Gunnar K. A. Njalsson and Paul Scheffer (who?) I can cite ten eminent thinkers who would disagree with them. Where does that lead us? Think for yourself - but do so with an open mind, not an empty one
Posted by FrankGol, Friday, 2 March 2007 11:36:18 PM
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Frank... What I'm attacking is the concept of 'Multi'...culturalism.

You ask what are mainstream Australian values ?.. mate.. *think* and I mean that. Because by and large we just 'live' our values rather than consciously thinking of some list. Just 2 exampleS
1/ "Best and FAIRest" is an Australian value.
2/ Shaking hands when we meet (either gender) is an Australian/Western value.

French tend to do a lot of kissing.. men on men action too I might add..

Please don't make everyones brain explode by challenging them to "list' all our values. It goes without saying that we have them.
If you want a comprehensive list, do some thinking or consult an anthropologist.

The most important issue is the place of 'alien' cultures in regard to Australian culture.

a) We can seek to absorb them into ours totally.
b) We can reject, alienate and marginalize them.
c) We can control the numbers of people arriving who follow alien cultures such that they simply don't register on our cultural radar.
d) We can control the numbers but also make an effort to encourage cultural interaction, mutual benefit and intermarriage and mutal understanding from such interaction.

But .. how are we to act when we are informed by our new cultural friends that soon they will be removing the clitorus and sewing up the Labia_Majora of their infant_daughter?

"d" is my preference. But one thing I regard as socially, culturally and politically dangerous beyond measure, is to bring uncontrolled numbers from foreign cultures here, withOUT due regard for the particular ideas associated with their culture, and then to say "Well, now ur hear, just keep on doing what you always have, its cool" when the reality is that some of those "ideas" could be a direct threat to our very existence.

One such idea is "The World and all that is in it belongs to Allah AND HIS APOSTLE" (and his political/social 'crew')

Ur welcome to not see this as a threat, but I do. The AFP and ASIO do also, and 24 men from this tradition are now on trial.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Saturday, 3 March 2007 7:53:14 AM
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What I can not understand, are those who hate themselves for being white. You would think they would end their lives to get their suffering over with, wouldn't you.

Multiculturalism has only forced the disintergration of Australian culture so that other's may exist. Once we white Australian's become the minority, the racial war will be between the Asians and Arabs, neither will allow Aboriginals to keep their culture. By comparison, we so called 'white oppressors' will seem like loving grannies by the time Arab or Asian people classify Aboriginals as less than contaminated dirt.

The solution for Australia to be a Bi-Cultural nation between the Aboriginals and white Australian of european origin. We must learn to work with each other for without such harmony, both of us will lose out greatly.
Posted by Spider, Saturday, 3 March 2007 1:48:56 PM
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Spider, people who think like you help to create stereotypes about Australians being racist and narrow minded people.

Australia was already a multicultural country years ago, even though some people are just beginning to hear and understand that. Asians, Pacific Islanders and Lebanese were around before the word multiculturalism was made so popular to the public. Some new immigrants along with those with non-traditional Australian backgrounds are having a harder time socializing with people who feel that their a setback to society. The Australians who are open minded, and those who feel secure about their future have not made a huge argument over Multiculturalism.
Posted by Amel, Saturday, 3 March 2007 4:29:16 PM
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Amel .. for "open minded Australians" read "Naive about history and culture" or.. "Educated with a mix of left wing idealism and Post modern cultural/philosophical relativism"

If you persuade people that 'everything is relative' and that the best thing for the world is to become a "Global Village" then they are more likely to cling less tenaciously to any sense of culture.

THE PROBLEM: is that many migrants bring to this still very young country, a very LONGGGG history of both race and culture. Greeks as just one example.. all the way back to Alexander and Pythagorous and Plato etc.. don't you consider it highly likely that Greeks coming here would feel they had a more valuable and important historical/cultural heritage than we Aussies in this convict infested 200 yr old country ?

Now this applies to many migrant groups and its not a condemnation as much as an understandable observation. Being aware of this, Australia NEEDS to act to persuade people not to come here if they bring cultural or religious superiority attitudes with them.

Australians will generally do little to protect themselves culturally until it becomes just too much and then we get a Lambing Flats rebellion and/or a Cronulla. Neither of which are very palatable.

Regarding the compatability of Islam I refer readers to this:
http://micorps.org/downloads/Vanguard-Q4-06scr.pdf Page12

["Exploitable Seams" are elements of Strategic Culture which can be thought of as “Love-Hate” relationships that bind the three elements (Holy Texts, Clerics, and the People) together. For example, within the American experience, there is the love-hate relationship between the People and the Government. Americans love the Constitution but hate big government. Another love-hate relationship, successfully exploited by North Vietnam, was the dichotomy between an anti-military bias and the tradition of the citizen soldier.

By exploiting the seams binding the People to the Government and the Military, North Vietnam was able to fracture the Political Trinity of the United States. The same process may be applicable in the “Global War on Terrorism”.]

COMMENT:
Indigenous Australians and White government='Exploitable Seam' for Islam.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Saturday, 3 March 2007 8:59:10 PM
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David

I think your posts are getting silly. You really are exposing the vacuity of 'mainstream Australian values' with your examples: 1/ "Best and FAIRest" is an Australian value. 2/ Shaking hands when we meet (either gender) is an Australian/Western value. Whereas you say 'French tend to do a lot of kissing.. men on men action too I might add..' I'm fifth generation Australian and I kiss a lot. I also like to hug men. Am I, and my friends, unAustralian?

You assert that Australian values are threatened by multicultualism but you can't articulate these values - it would make 'everyones brain explode'. If you can't articulate Australian values, how can you assert that they are under threat from immigrants?

From your list of possible options (a to d) it's clear that you are conflating immigration ('uncontrolled numbers') with multicultualism (policy on intergroup relations in Australia), a common mistake on OLO.

You express your fears with extreme and/or silly examples (cliterectomy and kissing) but your principle driver seems to be religious intolerance dressed up as fear for national security. Our security forces have charged 24 Muslim - what does that say about the other 300,000 Australian Muslims who are law-abiding?

You reiterate '.. THE PROBLEM' to Amel - but now with a twist. This time you use the Greeks who bring ;...a very LONGGGG history of both race and culture... all the way back to Alexander and Pythagorous and Plato etc.. And the PROBLEM with this is that "Australia NEEDS to act to persuade people not to come here if they bring cultural or religious superiority attitudes with them." What!?

What a deplorable lack of understanding of the history of Western civilisation which draws on Greek and Roman (Italian) culture. Moreover Greeks and Italians came to Australia iin massive numbers from the 1950s onwards and I see no sign of their undermining Australian values. Quite the contrary.

The construct of "Exploitable Seams" is bizarre. And to suggest the process that allegedly lost the Vietnam War may be applicable to the “Global War on Terrorism” is far fetched and implausible.
Posted by FrankGol, Saturday, 3 March 2007 10:58:51 PM
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Frank I admire your persistence in responding to some posters. This week has been the first week I've participated in OLO (I'm on holidays). A debate is fantastic to actually get out what we all really think.

A discussion on what we all think are Australian values would be interesting. It is more then shaking hands, on that point, 25 years ago no Aussie male ever shook my hand. I made a fool of myself on that score a few times until I learned! That little bit of culture has been imported from another culture. It is more than just the loose phrase of a Fair go. Some Aussies have been behaving in a most unAustralian manner on that score.

What fascinates me about many 'old', if you will, Australians is their inability to articulate what Australian values are or indeed what Australian culture is all about. Ask some people who come from elsewhere and who have lived in other cultures with some different values.

For years I've found myself defending Australian culture to many multi generational Australians who bemoan their lack of kulcha and how much more kulcha there is elsewhere. As if culture is only about old buildings and historical figures and is a static thing.

My 18 year old Australian born son tells me I've become a 'Forum Troll (trawler??) and I should stop stirring. I've had to remind him that stirring is a quintessential Aussie thing to do and now I can stir on matters of religion, politics and sex. Something else I was told 25 years ago was unAustralian. The blokes stuck together and talked cricket/rugby, the missus fixed the food and talked kids But look at us now!

Australia is multi-cultural, not multi-national, like for instance Great Britain (England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland), but multi-cultural, and the richer for it.
Posted by yvonne, Sunday, 4 March 2007 12:06:13 AM
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nationalist fundamentalism... this search for self definition can only ever be a destructive feature for Australian society, much in the same way political correctness has negatively impacted American and UK societies. I use PC as an example because of the destructive ways in which it has been ossified into a set of rigid rules and procedures that all too often curb individual freedom and encourage tyranny, contrary to it being created to minimise forms of discrimination.
ultimately nationalism is always going to be a struggle against human behavior itself as people continue to fundamentalise the image (values, traits, cultural artifacts) of the pure Australian, Japanese, Frenchman, Dutchman, Palestinian etc..
Values are constructed on so many levels of society from the immediate local to the international, but none can be capitalised by any one group
Posted by peachy, Sunday, 4 March 2007 1:13:05 AM
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Boaz, I have to agree with Frank, you are beginning to lose touch with reality.

>>don't you consider it highly likely that Greeks coming here would feel they had a more valuable and important historical/cultural heritage than we Aussies in this convict infested 200 yr old country<<

Wasn't that what all European migration was all about? Bringing the benefits of mature and developed culture to a land wide-open for new experiences?

If you suspend judgement for a moment on whether the existing population actually wanted these experiences, and even whether the imported culture was in some way "better", you have to admit that this was the overriding intent in migrating here.

Even for many of the convicts, it was the "clean slate". For many immediately post-war immigrants, it was a "fresh start". They brought with them their accumulated experiences of social conduct - both good and bad - and used that experience to carve out a more rewarding life in Australia.

It never occurred to them that they should consult with the existing population whether their "cultural or religious superiority attitudes" were acceptable or not.

At some point you will be forced to accept, Boaz, that not only are there people who are different from you, but also that they rejoice in being so.

Of one thing I am certain. If Australia was populated by 19,999,999 people who thinks the way you do, and only one who thinks the way I do, I would still be convinced your attitude is wrong.

Furthermore, if those were indeed the circumstances, I would consider it very bad manners on your part to expel me, an Australian citizen, for thinking the way I do.
Posted by Pericles, Sunday, 4 March 2007 8:14:13 AM
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Values is a very personal thing so to define exactly what Australian values are is a deliberate attempt confuse national identity. Australian values that are applicable to everyone is democracy, respect for the rule of law and equality. Every other value depends on your political leanings!

Australian culture can definitley be defined: the english language, capitalism, hard yakka, sport, the urban block in combination with a million other things. Multiculturalism is designed to destabilise Australian culture for ideological purposes and should be vehemently opposed. Australian culture is heavily influenced by its Anglo Saxon origins, all the micro cultures imported here are also anglo-cised to be able to function with the broader culture...

So there!
Posted by davo, Sunday, 4 March 2007 10:43:31 AM
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Do away with "multiculturalism", and Australia would still be multicultural. The exercise of multiculturalism is socially divisive. It provides for a cultural pecking order and this aids racism and intolerance and a political necessity to administer to cultural demands according to the numbers and not to society in general and in total. Government by pecking order. He who cries victim loudest gets the attention the soonest. Every culture I've ever spoken to on the subject of Australian government and social equality understands this. It's something they first learn coming through the doors. The people who came before and are now established educate the next wave to the system and what one must do to be heard.
After two generations of cultural marxism, if you can find an Australian that can physically hold his head up, and has the faintest glint of pride can but whinge in defence of his culture, "Leave off mate. I pay my taxes.
Posted by aqvarivs, Sunday, 4 March 2007 11:55:16 AM
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Well "trueassie" how delightfully sarcastic. To that I say, why don't we just form a lynch mob. Clearly, Australian society is currently embroiled in massive turmoil, and the end is nigh.
The only solution, clearly, is to whip out the ole' pitchforks, and defend the 'true' aussies, right trueassie?

I'll go light my torch.

I wasn't saying there aren't problems - there is a fire here, but you know what they say about fires - it tends to be the smoke surrounding them that gets you.
Posted by TurnRightThenLeft, Sunday, 4 March 2007 2:19:36 PM
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FrankGol says: "My answer is first that 'Western values' is a meaningless term, and second that no values are universally accepted although I wish a few were were. See my earlier post for a tentative list."

"Precisely which values are 'Western'? For example do you mean capitalist values or socialistic ones or nihilistic ones? In 'Western' nations I witness cheating, geed, lying and dishonesty. Are these what you mean?"

Multiculturalists often dismiss the significance of Western civilisation, enthusiastically prepared to throw Western culture and traditions out the window. The Western world's Judeo-Christian-derived ethical and moral values, rule of law, customs and history, social structures and political traditions are seen as not only irrelevant, but are viewed with utter disdain by some multiculturalists. However, I must admit that FrankGol is the first person I've ever encountered who downright denies the existence of Western civilisation period. Congratulations on setting a new record for deconstructionist lunacy.

FrankGol says: "I want to know what you mean by 'mainstream Australia' and 'its values, culture, and heritage'. Are these the things that John Howard trots out every now and then when he wants to distract voters?

"Mainstream Australia" is first and foremost a Western society. In terms of cultural specifics, Australia undoubtedly has a predominant Anglo-Celtic culture, with a commixture of other ethnic groups, the majority of which share a Western background and, therefore, are not particulary dissimilar to the dominant culture.

The experience of the early settlers in this unique land and the hardships they endured to build the modern nation-state of Australia forged this country's distinct culture and national identity. Simply acknowledging Australia's mainly *shock horror* Anglo-Celtic heritage and the large role it played in shaping the nation's overarching culture does not constitute a longing for British colonial culture. I am, of course, acutely aware that multiculturalists are usually unfazed by petty annoyances like reality, but in terms of demographics, the vast majority of Australians still identify with the European, primarily Anglo-Celtic, culture of Australia. Sadly,"Anglo-Celtic" has become a pejorative, largely due to the efforts of self-abasing cultural cringers.
Posted by Oligarch, Sunday, 4 March 2007 2:38:25 PM
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FrankGol says: "For every Gunnar K. A. Njalsson and Paul Scheffer (who?)"

Perhaps you should look beyond your insular suburban existence and take notice what's happening in the Netherlands at the moment as a result of multiculturalism. The Dutch experience should serve as a clear warning for other Western countries to abrogate this pernicious policy before it completely undermines social cohesion and national identity. Not that I expect self-styled cultural elites advocating the balkanisation of Australia to really take much notice. Such people tend to be slow learners, fervently believing their ideology can work here just as it fails everywhere else.
Posted by Oligarch, Sunday, 4 March 2007 2:41:02 PM
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Davo

You, like David_BOAZ, say: "Australian culture can definitley be defined: the english language, capitalism, hard yakka, sport, the urban block in combination with a million other things."

So if that's right, what's the difference between Australia and New Zealand, England, Canada, South Africa, and the USA? BOAZy (suffixing surnames is a very Australian custom?) threw in handshaking which yvonne effectively sabotaged with the reminder that for Australian women it's only about 25 years old as a custom. BOAZy has me tagged as a Frenchman because it's my custom to hug and kiss my friends rather than shake hands. But my family has been in Austrlia since the early 1800s.

And we had 'best and FAIRest' from BOAZy too; but fairness is hardly a quality Australians own as a monopoly. Indeed, if you look at recent studies of poverty in Australia or Indigenous death rates, you'd hardly want to be trumpeting fairness as a 'fair dinkum' Australian value.

So it's difficult to see how, if the nature of Australian culture is so elusive, you can assert that: "Multiculturalism is designed to destabilise Australian culture for ideological purposes". Furthermore, what do you mean by 'is designed to'? Who designed it that way? What was their 'ideological purpose'? These sorts of cliched myths about Australian culture and core values, with Multiculturalism as the work of the devil, clutter OLO and people keep trotting them out.

I'll chance my arm and say that Australian values and culture are under continuing development and negotiation, rather than being a fixture to be pinned down on a museum display case. And the principal reason for that is that we are a democracy where these matters are debated in an on-going way and are never finally resolved. I think that's a situation to be proud of rather than to be afraid of, or upset about.
Posted by FrankGol, Sunday, 4 March 2007 2:57:25 PM
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I think multiculturalism makes some people feel insecure, because they think it means having different cultures competing against each other. Multiculturalism is suppose to be something that naturally brings people together. So to have it all in the media made some Australians believe that it was being sold to them. But Australians who are open minded don't make a big issue with people from different backgrounds.
Posted by Amel, Sunday, 4 March 2007 3:18:41 PM
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Frankgol - you are right, and I agree, but I also see Oligarch's point insofar as western traditions do exist, though they are perhaps not particularly country specific.

There are fundamentally western nations - those you listed - and they share a set of shared ideals, while there are certain wrinkles, such as the US's embrace of the death penalty in contrast to other western nations.

But it is undeniable that western culture is always evolving and in a state of change. The key is to ensure the tenets that have made western society a pleasant (and I hesitate to use that butchered word, but I suppose Freedom is the right one) and free society remain in place.

I think one of the key differences between the right and the left at present, is that while both see threats to the western way of life, the left see the bigger threat as coming from the abuse of power in our own government, while the right see the external threat as being of greater import, while the internal threat is laxity - be it cultural or institutional.
Posted by TurnRightThenLeft, Sunday, 4 March 2007 3:23:27 PM
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Amel,

Australia has always had a mix or nationalities and races since european claim this however, did not make Australia a multicultural soceity. This land before and after federation was of white man's law. Before this was black man's law. There was no such thing as pick and choose your law depending on what part of this planet you are from.

As for the person who called me a racist, you need to see the white flight as people flee Sydney to escape the ever increasing rate of racial hate crimes against them, committed by Arabs and Asian's. Also include the increasing rate of Asian owned shops refusing to serve white Australian's.

That does not make me racist. It makes them racist and those who except it as pathetic weak fools.
Posted by Spider, Sunday, 4 March 2007 3:24:58 PM
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Is it alright if I wear my kilt next ANZAC Day?
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 4 March 2007 4:40:10 PM
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I hope you do, Mise, and look closely at the thousands lining the streets. Most of them have their ancestries in other countries. In fact I recall seeing kilts before in Anzac marches. And don't the Turks join in these days? It's all good.

Spider I'd love to see some evidence white people are fleeing Sydney to escape hate crimes committed by Arabs and Asians, or being refused service in shops. I think you've been overdosing on Today Tonight.

Frank I think you've summed it up OK - Australian values are a work in progress. There are always those who fear change, but they will always be unhappy since you only fear what you do not understand.
Posted by bennie, Sunday, 4 March 2007 5:07:20 PM
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My son and his friend got mugged last night and relieved of their belongings. (This is true, and a very scary experience.) His friend got an iron bar against his head. The perpetrators were caucasian. Where can we flee to? This suburb is full of whites.

Multi culturalism is NOT about multi nationalism or race. I defy anyone to go to a citizenship ceremony and not be moved by the pride and emotion shown by new citizens as they receive that beige parchment with their name on it declaring them to be a citizen of Australia. But us new Australians and our children cannot deny that we can speak another language or have some different practices. Just like an Anglo Saxon cannot deny their heritage and pride in it. Should we hide our pride about where we came from? How did this become a competition? I have lived in Australia nearly 3 decades, Australian culture has not become 'diluted. That's why David now shakes my hand and calls it an AUSTRALIAN value.

Anyone who has lived in Great Britain will soon find out that Australia is different. You feel distinctly Australian. Just like when a Greek or Chinese person visits their old home land. We all benefit from multi-culturalism.
Posted by yvonne, Sunday, 4 March 2007 5:40:02 PM
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Frank (and_Yvonne)
I’m guessing you 2 came late to OLO and have missed the many posts from many people where Australian values have been articulated ad nauseam. THAT is why I don’t bother to articulate them now.. its been done to death. Its not that I and others “can’t” at all. Its that you Johnny and Yvonne come lately’s have missed it all :)

Frank... resorting to implied name calling a-gain ? mate.. if you want your criticisms of my posts to have credibility you really need to stop this and just focus on.. issues.

Your point about hugging males etc and Yvonnes mention of older Aussie males not shaking female hands is quite valid and not contested, in fact it underlines my whole point, which IS.... that culture change should be by osmosis, not by sledge hammer. It should be transparent and unconscious. It WILL occur as we are exposed to other ways of doing things, and those things are seen to be of value. Now..how hard is that ?

Exploitable Seams...far fetched and implausible ? Frank ur a worry mate. Did you see where that quote came from ? Did you check the link ?
This aspect of western culture and the passion of those seeking to destroy it is as real as you are, and not only is plausible, it is very real and did in fact happen during the Vietnam war, exactly as described.
Regarding the applicability to the war on Terror.. it does, but I won’t labor the point. Lets just hope ‘you’ are not the one on the next train bombed.

“Australian values are a work in progress” Hooray.. and yes -but to aim this at me, is in fact a confession. That you NEVER read this http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=164
post.. or never_understood it, hence do_not_understand ‘me’.

Yvonne.. keep stirring ‘dahling’ its all good. If your son wants some self defense guidance, let me know. Sorry to hear of his mugging.

Pericles, your response to undeniable facts in the ‘Muslim Academics’ thread leaves your credibility if not in tatters, at least ‘bruised’.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Sunday, 4 March 2007 6:34:18 PM
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If anyone has the time, please read this enlightening book by David Theo Goldberg, titled Multiculturalism: A critical reader

http://books.google.com.au/books?vid=ISBN0631189122&id=AZ6jC-T4wJ4C&pg=PP1&lpg=PP1&ots=wWPcY_ou3O&dq=multiculturalism+a+critical+reader+david+theo&sig=5Aues5Ow5-Vl_4NIP4sjOiJk0P0

It holds relevance to the debate here within Australia and pieces together much of the political, economic and social factors attributed to multiculturalism that people feel concerned or threatened over..
Posted by peachy, Sunday, 4 March 2007 10:40:10 PM
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Peachy

Thanks for the reference. It looks like a book worth reading and taking seriously. I notice that the index does not have an entry for Australia; but sometimes looking at things far away helps us better understand what's close at hand.

David_BOAZ, I've looked at my last post concerning you. Apart from calling you BOAZy to make a point about the Australian habit of adding y to surnames (Warney, Boony, Gilly) I can't find any name calling by me. But I note you call it 'implied name calling', so we're in the realm of subjective interpretation. Until you are specific I won't be able to refrain.

You tell me to stop this 'implied name calling' and focus on the issues. However, in your same post you tell me and yvonne that, as late comers, many of the issues have already been dealt with 'ad nauseum' before we came along.

So... what's a person to do? Engage with you on the issues when you raise them or refrain from debating them in case you've already done it to death?

One thing puzzles me but. If you have already dealt with the issues 'ad nauseum' before Yvonne and I came on the scene, why do you keep raising them and giving your very strong views on them?
Posted by FrankGol, Monday, 5 March 2007 12:12:27 AM
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Hi Frank..
don't worry about the names thing... you did mention a few specifics in previous posts. "fool" etc.. no biggy.

The best thing to do re Australian values is to provide some references. But you can use google as well as I can so I wont mention any now.

Values:

1/ Language (English)
2/ Rites of Passage (Birth Marriage Death)
3/ Food habits
4/ Methods of greeting.
5/ Ways of speaking "Call a spade a spade"
6/ Courtship

and so it goes on.
Many of the above, which is not an exaustive list by any means are in a state of flux due to the impact of outside culture, which is fine as long as it is accepted freely by the mainstream rather than as the result of some cultural whining or protest by minorities.

Did you read my "ONE NATION, ONE RACE ONE CULTURE" post at all ?

Does that explain more of where I'm coming from ? Did it dispel some of your fears about my views? (In spite of the rather confronting headline)
Posted by BOAZ_David, Monday, 5 March 2007 6:22:10 AM
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Boazy: "...rather than as the result of some cultural whining or protest by minorities."

You mean like the incessant whining by certain Christian fundamentalists in this forum, or their laughable fantasies about engaging in public protest?

Speaking of which, how did your 'Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer' demo at Flinders St station go? What about your '10 Teams'?

Some people can talk the talk, but are incapable of walking the walk.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Monday, 5 March 2007 6:46:50 AM
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Just as an interesting aside, probably the first 'First Fleeter' to die in Sydney Cove and hence Australia was a negro.
He dived into the harbour to save a fellow convict and was himself drowned.
Now there's values for you, bravery and mateship and self-sacrifice.
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 5 March 2007 7:46:42 AM
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Boaz, you keep finding new ways to avoid the issue.

Full marks for this one, referring to another thread entirely, and adding a neat piece of insinuation.

>>Pericles, your response to undeniable facts in the ‘Muslim Academics’ thread leaves your credibility if not in tatters,
at least ‘bruised’<<

You clearly learned your Christian apologetics from a master politician.

Another of your "Politics 101" habits is to tell porkies.

>>the many posts from many people where Australian values have been articulated ad nauseam.
THAT is why I don’t bother to articulate them now.. its been done to death<<

The part that you missed out was that there was absolutely no consensus on what those values should be.
For your part, naturally, you continued (and continue) as if nothing happened,
still asserting that it has to do with shaking hands and awarding trophies for "best and fairest".

>>Many of the above [values], which is not an exaustive list by any
means are in a state of flux due to the impact of outside culture,
which is fine as long as it is accepted freely by the mainstream
rather than as the result of some cultural whining or protest by minorities<<

This is in many ways the most objectionable part of your argument.

Having failed to identify the values themselves, you conjure up this image
of a "mainstream" who are somehow going to act as arbiter.

Who, exactly, do you envisage as the "mainstream"?

You, and people who think the way you do, I strongly suspect.

And the third pollie-trait is to assume that everyone knows who you are,
and has read everything you have ever written.

>>Did you read my "ONE NATION, ONE RACE ONE CULTURE" post at all ?
Does that explain more of where I'm coming from ?<<

Unfortunately it does. It brands you as an enemy of otherness,
exacerbated by your choice of "Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer" headline
which, after all this time, I have to conclude is deliberate.

I keep thinking of that duck.

As in, looks like a duck, sounds like a duck...
Posted by Pericles, Monday, 5 March 2007 9:02:29 AM
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The most interesting part of Mr Lo's post,to me, was that he described himself as a "Young Australian born Chinese man". Not as an Australian of Chinese descent but ...Chinese.
So we have all these "Australian" born people who identify with the 'other' country more than they do with Australia , this has led to our nation becoming a nation of tribes which will lead to tribal troubles a bit down the track.
We never had this before the term multiculture was adopted and 'Australianism' became a thing to be ashamed of.
The sooner the term multiculture is erased the better and the sooner all migrants become Australians ,we will all settle.
Any who do not wish to be Australian should not be given permanent residence.
Posted by mickijo, Monday, 5 March 2007 1:22:49 PM
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mickijo; Too Right!
Posted by Spider, Monday, 5 March 2007 7:06:45 PM
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The key issue here seems to be more about the general insecurity of white Australians in proclaiming their identity, rather than what other culture immigrants also identify with.

And that’s a true shame.

It should make no difference to you that someone else feels a certain attachment to an ancestral home. I'm 4th generation Australian, yet I still get a bit of a thrill adding up the various races that contributed to my gene pool- Scottish, Irish and German mainly (probably explains a lot!). I'm sure that Spider, Mickijo and DB also know where they came from. And that knowledge shapes a large part of their identity.

Why should we deny this to others?

I’ve lived overseas for a few years. For me, the sad part is that most of the people I meet over here seem to have a better grasp of what it means to be Australian than many of the posters on this thread.

I LIKE saying I’m Australian. People look at you with the awe reserved for the little scrapper who punches above his weight. From the outside they see a lovely continent full of proud people, forceful in pursuing their own path in the world. They see honest, friendly people who are the first to take you by the arm, settle you down in front of the barbie with a coldie. More importantly, they see a country that knows right from wrong and is willing to stand up for it.

We’ve been on the front line of political change and reform. Along with Canada and NZ, we are viewed as a beacon of light in a world that too often let individual interests override the common good.

Those are the Australian values! We should take pride in them!

They’re also the reason most immigrants climb over the still warm corpses of their mothers to come here. They don’t want to change them- why would they? Multiculturalism just allows them to hang on to a piece of what they were. Just as we do.
Posted by mylakhrion, Monday, 5 March 2007 8:01:23 PM
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I've always considered myself an Irish-Australian even though I have Scottish and English ancestors, and probably raiding Vikings, Breton fishermen, French adventurers and possibly Algerian Corsairs; these latter had a habit of raiding the south west of Ireland and murdering the men and raping the women.
Why Irish Australian? because back in the 1940s, when I was but a wee bairn, we were known as 'bloody micks' and never allowed to forget our origins.It sort of stuck.

These days I spend some of my time in India where I am invariably mistaken for a Muslim, until I speak; my Urdu has a slight accent it appears.

As the Celts are thought to have come from somewhere to the north of the subcontinent there may be some reason for their assumption.
Brothers under the skin? Certainly if one takes a black and white negative of a group of western suited Indian businessmen and a similar one of Europeans there no way to tell which is which until they are printed.
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 5 March 2007 8:37:28 PM
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mickijo makes an important point in that multiculturalism places all the emphasis on ethnicity rather than shared national identity, thereby creating an alienating situation where old-stock Australians are not permitted by the countries of their colonial forefathers to consider themselves English, Irish, German, etc., while newer arrivals from vastly different cultural backgrounds can claim multiple identities. Mr. Lo is obviously a product of this multiculturalist obsession with allegiance to original culture and ethnicity over Australian nationality. Australia is no longer a nation united by a common culture, merely a co-habiting space for unconnected tribes.
Posted by Oligarch, Monday, 5 March 2007 8:37:29 PM
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Mylakhrion: That was beautifully said. Go and travel overseas a bit and you will lose the 'we're losing Aussie culture' thing. We are indeed a great example of a successful multicultural nation.

I have tried, as an Australian who came from elsewhere and adopted this Nation as my country to point out that pride of where we came from is OK. It could translate into: where I came from was fantastic, there are many things I sometimes miss, but Australia is even better, that is why this is now my Nation. Anyone who doesn't want to adopt Australia as their Nation, because it isn't quite good enough (back home is still better) does not need to. They can remain a permanent resident, like so very many British and NZ citizens do.

We are a multicultural nation. If we want to talk about why is it that there are citizens who feel marginalized and not inclusive that's another thing. The issue of no matter how long you've lived here and people still ask you: what nationality are you? Or talk about Aussies vs Lebs could have something to do with that.

For me, since multiculturalism became a policy, it has become easier. It is more likely that now I'm asked: what other language do you speak? My Australian nationality is now generally assumed. You have no idea how such a little thing can make a big difference.This is just one example.

Unless you've travelled, you've no idea how bland and boring another country becomes. No matter how exotic initially. It's always good to come home to the vibrant culture of Australia.
Posted by yvonne, Monday, 5 March 2007 9:22:11 PM
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Is Mise and Yvonne

How refreshing your posts are after all the misery and blinkered vision of the woebegotten and the conspiracy theorists.

I can go to bed now thinking someone understands how to get the best out of life in Australia, a wonderful country.

Thanks.
Posted by FrankGol, Monday, 5 March 2007 11:27:01 PM
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Frank.... you can do that anytime.. but remember this is after all a place where we struggle with each other about ideas.. did you in fact read my position post re 'ONE...etc' ?

I note you neglected to respond to my question this time ?

Yvonne and Is Mise are saying good things, no question about that, but while I do share their perspective by and large, there is an element of sentimentality in their expressions which could limit their appreciation of the cutting edge cultural dynamics being driven by certain interests.

My bigger concern is the 'vast conspiracy' :) or.. more realistically, the cultural dynamics which inevitably go on beneath the observable surface, and which, if not taken into full consideration, well mean one day we wake up wondering where we are and who we are.

Bear in mind, I've lived and worked in multi-tribal/national cultural settings, and have seen a lot of these things in 'hyper' view.. as in, from the inside.. and this with a reasonable background in Anthropology studies. The dynamics of which I'm aware were highlighted as I experienced them daily more magnified than we experience them here. So, I don't expect everyone to share my own colorful perspective, the best I hope for is that what I say will produce some reflection on the sentimental approach and bring a word of well founded caution into it.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Tuesday, 6 March 2007 6:08:34 AM
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David,

Given that you have posted on OLO 3,144 times, it's pretty hard to read everything you write. But I did read yout post despite the headline. Your last post on values was weak - your list is a mish mash of universal practices and personal preferences. eg "Call a spade a spade" is hardly an Australian value shared by all Australians. Many Australians pretend they call a spade a spade even as they lie and cheat. Our PM lies in spadesful and his opponents shovel it about too. And the spin on OLO?

One problem with OLO is that I get tired of the same old predictable opinions based on nothing but assertions or prejudices with no real argument or evidence. Many of these are filled with fear and loathing for the ideas of 'academics' and 'leftists' and they substitute abusive labels for discussion of ideas. It's possibly therapeutic for them but, as a reader, I respect something more meaty, especially when I disagree.

I once wrote a thesis under the direction of a highly conservative academic in London. I disagreed many times with his views but I respected his intellectual rigour. He made me work hard to sort out my arguments, to make sure I was coherent and to marshal proper evidence in support of my case. I learned a lot from him.

In particular I am tired of OLO posters throwing words and concepts about with no regard for definition. 'Multicultural' is the worst example; but 'values', 'culture', civilisation' 'Islamist', 'Howard-haters' and 'Australian' (as in 'true', 'patriotic', 'loyal' and 'un-Australian') come readily to mind.

You damn Yvonne and Is Mise with faint praise because of their limited "appreciation of the cutting edge cultural dynamics being driven by certain interests." There you go again - hint hint; nudge nudge; say no more.

Then you trot out "the 'vast conspiracy'... the cultural dynamics which inevitably go on beneath the observable surface, and which, if not taken into full consideration, well mean one day we wake up wondering where we are and who we are."

This is mush David.
Posted by FrankGol, Tuesday, 6 March 2007 11:29:51 AM
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yvonne,
How far would you let others go in repect of their cultures?

My opinion is that they should cast aside any hatreds their culture carries. Obey and respect our laws and social standards.

To do both the above some may have to alter their attitudes to females. Other cultural matters is entirely their business.

Would you be happy enough with this?
Posted by Banjo, Tuesday, 6 March 2007 11:36:42 AM
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And so it begins. The battle between ethnic groups in Sydney to fill the cultural void ...

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/school-gang-brawl-filmed/2007/03/06/1172943407745.html

"School gang brawl filmed
March 6, 2007 - 12:02PM

Videos of a mass brawl in a Sydney schoolyard have been posted on the YouTube website, along with abusive comments suggesting the fight was racially motivated ... "

I heard on the radio this was between Middle-Easterners and Asians.

WARNING: language and violence ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thjco30gY68
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W76ZJzDbhUY&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_am4o1TEGNI

Such a delight to see Australia's future "define themselves by their common humanity". Those who seek to continue immigration and multiculturalism in the face of clear "critical mass" problems are the same moderates who will be the first to head for the hills when, to their incomprehensible surprise, their pita bread is knocked out of their hands as the streets erupt in riots all around them.

JY, don't listen to Mirko. He and his "sociologists will be puzzled for decades" whilst the country burns around them. It is time to go over-the-top on a program of monocultural civility, that's the only way we will survive.
Posted by online_east, Tuesday, 6 March 2007 12:47:03 PM
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>>>>Banjo- cultural tolerance stops at the law. Things like FGM are illegal and no amount of cultural bluster should ever change that. Immigrants come here to live like Australians and must therefore act within the law. Multiculturalism is not about changing who we are. Its about recognizing that other cultures have value as well. But we don't have to tolerate the intolerable

>>>>That's right online_east

Take one incident and make a fragmented society out of it. After all, schoolyard fights never happened before multiculturalism. In monoculture societies it is all gumdrop smiles and strawberry rivers and no-one says a harsh word to anyone.

Anti-immigrant posters talk up a storm about the failures of multiculturalism and immigration, but I have yet to see any of them offer a solution aside from 'bugger all the immigrants. Force 'em to live like white Christians."

Do any of you actually have a plan? Or does it all just hang on deporting everyone else that doesn't live like you?

DB talks is pseudo-reasonable terms about tribalism like it is an inherent part of human nature. Maybe it is. But so is rape, murder and a lot of other instincts that we manage to control via our intellect.

We are sentient. We are self aware. As such we are able to self-regulate. We are able to decide that a particular behaviour is not right, and therefore not do it. We can challenge ourselves to be better every day. That is what multiculturalism offered. A challenge to everyone to look beyond the selfish border of your own prejudices and see something of worth in others.

But you and the others don't want to be better. Easier, more comfortable to cling to rancid old ideas of cultural superiority.

Well- news for you. Australia IS multicultural. Nothing is going to change it. You can either come onboard, offer a solution and make it a go, or sit in the corner and sulk.

Your choice.
Posted by mylakhrion, Tuesday, 6 March 2007 1:45:23 PM
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Dear Myla
I'm a bit confused by your post.. are you suggesting that I am anti immigrant ? and that I want them all to live like 'White Christians' ?
If yes, then please read this: (don't freak at the headline) read first then react.....
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=164

Migrants are MOST welcome to Australia as far as I'm concerned. The only 'but' is this "In controlled numbers with due attention to their cultural compatability and political volatility, and values"

I would rate immigrants on a totally different basis than the naive and misguided foundation of 'universal human rights' or other such gobbledygook. I would say "do these people constitute high potential for enhancing our social cohesian, our ethical boundaries, our moral framework, our cultural norms, economic growth and our political stability" ?

I don't care WHAT color they are, or race, but I DO care about all the above. I then echo Howards words "We.. determine who comes here, and under what circumstances they come" absolutely and without apology or compromise.

Just as one anecdotal example of the 'political stability' aspect of migration is the seat of BENNELONG.
It appears that
a) large numbers of Asians have moved into the area.
b) Asians tend to vote labor more than coalition.

(surprise surprise the reason is partly a perception that Labor is more easy going on immigration than the Coalition and there is more chance of more of their folk coming here under labor)

So, now, due to demographic changes of a particular racial flavor, and some electoral boundary re-alignment, our 2nd longest serving prime minister could lose his own seat ! Now..THAT is political instability based on race/culture.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Tuesday, 6 March 2007 3:13:58 PM
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JWH could be kicked out?
Oh! HAPPY DAY!
Posted by Is Mise, Tuesday, 6 March 2007 6:59:49 PM
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Living with any aspect of your particular culture is always restricted with respect to the law of this Nation. If you care to actually read up on the government website re Multi-cultural policy you will see that this is so.

Our multicultural policy actually explicitly makes a statement regarding respect of Australia's laws, values AND other cultures. It is not just about nurturing one's own and damn any other or disregarding the law.

Obnoxious behaviour is not the prerogative of any particular culture I'm sorry to tell you. Neither is historical prejudice and hatred towards another. Are those prejudices and hatreds cast in stone? Of course not.

What I find offensive is when nationalistic and patriotic behaviour intrudes. Like some of the flag waving. A flag is a National symbol, not a cultural symbol. This incidentally also goes for some of the Australian flag waving I've recently seen. This is my nation's flag I've seen some dropkicks misuse for their own purposes.

Each Australian citizen has their particular family culture and ethnic culture, with the Australian constitution and laws and Australian flag unifying us all. Go to a citizenship ceremony and see the pride and emotion of new citizens. They are all compatible immigrants, because they chose to be.
Posted by yvonne, Tuesday, 6 March 2007 11:27:51 PM
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David

You say, "large numbers of Asians have moved into' Bennelong. If they are not Australian citizens they can't vote - so the word 'Asians' is misleading. Nor are they one single entity. In Bennelong the big groups include diverse voters with Korean, Chinese and Japanese backgrounds.

You cite no evidence for your sweeping claim: "Asians tend to vote labor more than coalition." The facts are: "It's not the case that the resulting new [Asian-background] electors are ALP voters - at the last federal election they broke slightly in favour of the Libs, but they have replaced generally WASPs, who tended to break two to one against the ALP." (The Australian, 27/2/2007)

George Megalogenis says Howard achieved a swing to him in 2001, when the defining issue was border protection. The Asians swung with him then, albeit not as strongly as the WASP areas of Bennelong." (ibid) And this in the face of Howard contradictions: his anti-Asian comments on the one hand and record immigration from Asia under his government on the other hand.

Howard, himself, says: "I find with migrants in my electorate, those of Asian background, that many of them do share those small business, family (values),...many Asians, of course, come from an English-speaking background" (ibid). So your glib race-based explanation why 'Asians' vote ALP is specious.

You emphatically endorse Howard's words: "We.. determine who comes here, and under what circumstances they come". Students of Australian history know that these are a paraphrase of Sir Alexander Downer - father of current Foreign Minister - in 1958 while abolishing the infamous dictation test (Leck & Templeton, Bold Experiment; a documentary history of Australian immigration since 1945, OUP 1995 p. 176)

Your snide conclusion is absurd: "...due to demographic changes of a particular racial flavor, and some electoral boundary re-alignment, our 2nd longest serving prime minister could lose his own seat ! Now..THAT is political instability based on race/culture."

Twaddle! If Howard loses it will be because of unfair IR laws, high interest rates, corruption (AWB), moral turpitude (illegal invasion of Iraq), neglect (water and climate change) etc.
Posted by FrankGol, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 10:42:56 AM
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Quite so, Frank - but since when has our brownshirted Crusader let mere reality get in the way of a good racist rant?

If a Muslim had made similarly false claims, old Boazy would undoubtedly proclaim them as 'taqiya'. I'm not sure whether there's an exact Christian eqiivalent - 'bearing false witness' perhaps?

Of course, there is a perfect Aussie term that this site regards as profane, which has a very similar meaning to 'bulldust'.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 11:24:45 AM
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Frank...thanx for that perspective. I should have made the point that I was actually quoting a news item, so they were not in reality my own claims ("Asians tend to vote Labor") It was the view of a political commentator.

I fully realize that 'Asian' is not one particular race, as you rightly pointed out. It was not relevant to my point.

If the political commentator was correct, (and I appreciate and welcome your well sourced evidence to the contrary) then what I stated holds quite well. Lets not forget the actual central issue, that sloppy immigration administration can indeed lead to the things I pointed out.

I'm probably reflecting my own life experience where in Sabah the Muslim chief ministers always brought 'refugees' from the Southern Philippines (Muslim) and the Catholic one brought 'refugees' from Timor (Christian area). i.e. 'Refugees'='votes'.

I'm simply emphasising that undue attention to careful policy will have negative results.
I absolutely maintain my support for Howard in his "We...determine" soundbite, but don't take that as uncritical support for him or his party.

A previous point you made about the need for careful argument and supporting evidence is not lost on me, I'll seek to do better.

CJ I would have thoght the needle continually rasping over the same track on the broken record of 'Boazy the racist' was worn beyond use,.. apparently not :)
Posted by BOAZ_David, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 1:28:11 PM
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I am wondering in which country both an author and too many disputants live in.

Racism and xenophobia were, are and if nothing changed dramatically, to be a grounding stone of/for a UK-courtyard called Australia.

An expression an "Australian-born Chinese man" sounds illogical to me as it highlights geography as a common denomination for a nation only.
Posted by MichaelK., Friday, 9 March 2007 1:34:05 AM
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TRTL. No mate, won't see me advocating lynch mobs, what's done is done. I do, however, think it wise to change direction sooner rather than later. After all, we have to think of our kids, don't we. My father migrated from the Uk to Australia in the 60's on the hunch that the country was going down the pan, largely thanks to certain immigration policies. Having lived there only a few years back for a number of years I can't disagree with him. I've been based outside of Aus for almost 10 years now, and everytime I go back I worry if we are going the same way. I can't help feeling that it is well meaning 'fair go' people like yourself that will ultimately contribute towards this situation.
Posted by trueaussie, Friday, 9 March 2007 2:07:45 AM
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Reading through this thread has only re-affirmed my opinion that multiculturalists are either overly naive or intellectually dishonest. They are glaringly unable to confute the evidence from both Australia and abroad which indicates that multiculturalism encourages the ethnic balkanisation and cultural de-Westernisation of the host nation. Rather than deal with the inconvenience of reality, proponents of multiculturalism imply that opposition to their ideology is motivated by xenophobia and even racism, effectively using ad hominem attacks to stifle substantive debate. So much for the intellectual underpinnings of multiculturalism.
Posted by Oligarch, Sunday, 11 March 2007 2:46:40 AM
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Oligarch.. be encouraged.

If you feel the pro multiculturalists are causing their 'enemies' to cringe in intellectual or moral fear at their 155mm verbal Howitzer shells of xenophobia and racism then you have not been following my posts :)

I relish such charges so they can be shown for what they really are "Personal attacks in the absense of sound well evidenced argument"

Multi-Culturalism has now been relegate to its rightful place 'cult' and is we are now being 'intervened' and deprogrammed from its pernicious mythology.

It will take time of course, but it will go in the end.

"Multi" neglects to recognize 'predominant' and suggests all cultures are deserving of equal treatment. This is clearly not the case or we would have every langauge of every race and culture in Australia being one of many national languages.

Respecting other cultures must ALways have the proviso that "as long as it does not conflict with the prevailing culture" otherwise there will be cultural anarchy.

"In those days there was no King in Israel, And every man did what was right in his own eyes" Josh 21:25

So, there is always need for a 'king' in cultural terms, to keep the princes and princesses in line, and that pesky Nobility.
One thing about Nobles, they tend to forge alliances with "outside" forces in order to advance their own royal aspirations. Always has been, is now, and always will be.

CITIZENSHIP means learning how Australia ticks. Learning how to be an "Australian" of Chinese ancestry, not a "Chinese Australian" It means knowing that when the emergency services come to assist you at an accident, they will NOT be encumbered by some need to refer to their 'cultural awareness handbook' before deciding on how to treat the women and children and men. They already KNOW, because they are "Australian".

It is for those and many similar reaons that the REACTION IS SO STRONG by Aussies against "Multi" culture-alism
Posted by BOAZ_David, Sunday, 11 March 2007 11:40:46 AM
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Oligarch,
You are spot on and put it in a nut shell.

Yvonne,
I am aware what the legislation on MC states about having respect for other cultures. What happens when one or more cultures do not have respect for others? Answer:- The whole MC ideology breaks down.

For example, Croats and Serbs riot and fight each other, culmunating in cars being torched and shots fired at buildings. Thats respect?

By their actions, Leb muslims show no respect for us, our laws or justice system, even though we welcome immigrants with open arms and that is dissappointing.

MC can only work when ALL cultures respect ALL other cultures. There also has to be respect for the host countries laws and social standards.

MC is a philosophy that fosters seperate ethnic development, ideally a federation of ethnic cultures, not one community. It rates original culture ahead of national unity. Unity in diversity is a bad joke.

The leb gangs clashing with the asian school kids the other day is another example why it will not work.
Posted by Banjo, Sunday, 11 March 2007 11:59:44 AM
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It is clear that the anti-multiculture factions on this forum fear being dominated, overtaken, overrun, etc. etc.
by people they perceive as "others".

This is of course fair enough.

Fear is a significant motivating factor in many aspects of human behaviour. Some would say that it is the biggest.
From the manner in which we happily allow successive governments to erode our freedoms in return
for protecting us from perceived harm, I would be inclined to agree.

However, it is unrealistic to conduct a debate of this type without considering a viable alternative.

The only one presented with any frequency on this forum is Boaz's "Ein Reich, ein Volk, ein Führer" society,
an addled mixture of xenophobia and tokenism.

But at least he has thought about an alternative approach, even if he is still in the same puddle as rest of the antis,
who believe that you can simply wish away the past and step into a bright (in their eyes) new future,
without any pain, sacrifice or hardship.

To bring about a monocultural society in this country will require the overthrow of the existing democratic
underpinnings of our nation. I cannot see this occurring without bloodhsed
- freedom is still too precious in our eyes.

But if it does occur, it will then be necessary for the overthrower to impose their unique version
of monoculture on their fellow citizens.

After all, by definition there can be only one.

But whose will it be?

Not only will I have a problem if that imposed vision is Boaz's, but I suspect I will not be alone.
Sufficiently not alone, in fact, to be able to wage a continuous war against the dictatorship it represents.

As an alternative to this, I would support the further development of a multi-cultural, multi-ethnic,
multi-faceted, multi-coloured nation, whose citizens would be free to choose.

The minute - no, the millisecond - we turn into Boazland, I'm outta here.
Fortunately, I think Australians have far too much common sense for me to have to make this choice.
Posted by Pericles, Sunday, 11 March 2007 2:56:40 PM
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Pericles... for a fleeting moment there I also thought we had progress.. only to be dissappointed with you "ein reich" blather.

Your point about fear is fair enough and the danger of NOT taking a pro-active approach to fostering a vibrant Australian culture is that this fear you refer to will explode in another Cronulla but next time it will be on Turbo.

You keep taking what I did NOT say, and presenting it here as if I DID say it..

You are suggesting my position is "Ein Reich_ein Volk_ein Führer" which being translated means
"ONE State, ONE people, ONE LEADER"

But I said:

"ONE Nation, ONE Race, ONE culture"

$5 to anyone who can spot the IMPORTANT difference even in the headline, which was clearly designed (as the rest of the post explained) to grab attention.

BLENDED SOCIETY
From that headline, I proceeded to develop the idea of a blended society, where racist attitudes are broken down, such that people of various cultural and racial backgrounds feel FREE (not forced) to intermarry and thereby move as many tributaries towards a new 'Australian' identity which comprises the best of all the contributing cultures.

This idea included NOTHING about any 'one leader' as you so persistently portray me as promoting. Now.. you are the one doing the rabble rousing here, by deliberately misrepresenting what I actually said.

You mention 'imposed' quite a lot.. and I mention 'choose' hmmmm methinks there is another motive going on in Pericles mind.. could it be FEAR of your children marrying outside your racial comfort zone ?

My major point is this. Stop funding difference, and if funding is there at all, allocate it to unifiying measures rather than divisive.

Public Service Department heads will no longer have to submit reports on how much they have done to foster DIFFERENCE, no..they will now have to submit reports indicating what they have done to promote UNITY and cultural harmony. GEEEE..that sounds terribly scary doesn't it ?

That alone will achieve my own vision. The rest will follow naturally.

The only barriers to inter-marriage are RACIST by nature.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Sunday, 11 March 2007 3:40:26 PM
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Pericles that's exactly right. Because even if it were possible to impose a monoculture humans being what they are, will find a reason to create an other to fear and/or hate. Protestants vs Catholics vs Pentecostalists vs atheists etc. The sky's the limit really, even amongst peace loving Western civilised Christians. (I'm being a bit sarcastic here-I don't think Christians are particularly peace loving or necessarily civilised)

Banjo, because there are people or even groups of people unwilling to play by the rules so to speak, is not exactly a reason to abandon those rules. We've had laws against murder and stealing since time immemorial in every single culture and still that rule gets broken very frequently everywhere and there are people who get away with it too, but I haven't heard anybody argue we might as well drop that because it isn't stopping crime anyway.

The freedom that comes with a democratic and multi-cultural society requires vigilance on the part of all citizens. It should never be taken for granted by anybody. It requires constant nurturing and education. Modeling respectful behaviour at all times is more instructive than mirroring a slanging match back. Living in a dictatorship is so much easier. Just do as you're told and believe as you're told. It keeps ignorant prejudices simmering behind closed doors, then when that dictator dies all hell breaks loose. See the Balkans and Iraq.
Posted by yvonne, Sunday, 11 March 2007 4:08:41 PM
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Disagreeing with the politically correct multicultural stance is almost guaranteed to get you called a racist, as if the values of most white Australians were something to be deplored, rejected and replaced with some borderless Utopian brotherhood of man style cultural Marxism that will make Australia paradise of earth once we get rid of all the bad people - the racists, sexists and other politically incorrect naughty people who refuse to swallow the multiculturalism myth. Those who embrace the flawed logic of multiculturalism do so not because they care about people, but out of some egoistical need to show they are more open minded than you - so open minded it seems their brains fell out in the process. One only has to look at the complete incompatibility between people from Islamic countries and average Australians, they will never do anything but clash, mixing as well as oil and water as Muslims will always be Muslims first and Australians second - their cultural values being at odds on so many fronts. One says women are equal to men and the other says they are unclean inferior creatures who are to be hidden from view. One says homosexuals can live freely, the other demands they be put to death. And so it goes. If one truly wants to be Australian, then they must embrace Australian values and laws or go back to their own countries where monoculturism is the norm. It seems the writer of this article still identifies himself as Chinese, rather than Australian, and, as Executive Member of Chinese Culture Monthly, has an agenda that, if inverted to White Australian Culture Monthly, would be seen as racist by every bleeding heart under the sun. In former times migrants came mostly from countries that had values not dissimilar from our own and as consequence readily integrated into our society but todays immigrants from Africa and Islamic countries have vastly different values, values that most ordinary Australians would find disgraceful if they were properly informed. But we mustn't criticize their culture, no matter how backwards and medieval it appears. It's 'racist'.
Posted by Gitmo Guy, Sunday, 11 March 2007 7:33:57 PM
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Living with many cultures and NOT practicing multiculturalism is NOT monoculturalism. Why is it so difficult for some to grasp that it is not the presents of many cultures that is at issue but, rather the ISM behind multiculturalISM. It is the practice of that ISM that is the destructive element in our society not the various cultures.
Posted by aqvarivs, Sunday, 11 March 2007 7:54:22 PM
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Pericles,
The alternative to the current subsidised imposed multiculturalism is NOT an imposed monoculturalism

It’s rather a free evolving - Aussie -culture .

If that results is us wearing Vietnamese hats , Scottish kilts & writing Haiku in a couple of generations, I say so be it -so long as the majority freely chooses.

And as for talk of "Ein Reich, ein Volk, ein Führer":
From what I have seen of the recent antics of proud multicultural groups at the tennis & soccer ( the old name was so much more appropriate) multiculturalism itself has done much to foster & sustain an "Ein Reich, ein Volk, ein Führer” mentality within some groups...
Posted by Horus, Sunday, 11 March 2007 9:32:18 PM
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Yvonne and Pericles,
Yes, I am concerned about the society we will be leaving our decendants. If we muck it up it could be decades or centuries before it is corrected.

Multiculuralism promotes seperatism and conflict. The examples of this are all around us, both here and overseas.

Integration promotes togetherness and unity. I am amazed that some people cannot see this.

I do not expect a lot from migrants and I accept that they are the main ones to benefit from them coming here.

I expect them to discard any hatreds of others that their culture carries. I further expect them to obey and respect our laws and social standards. Other than this, they are at liberty to carry on with their lives as they see fit. That is not imposing a monoculture.

We are multi-racial but not MC, our laws and social standards HAVE to be the basic core of our community. We simply cannot have one section saying, for example, women are equal and another section not abiding by that. FGM is illegal here, but some are not abiding by that law.

You say that MC requiries vigilance, constant nurturing and education. Well I am sorry but the cost is too high. Both socially and monetary. We can do it a lot better, and both political parties at long last have realised this. Integration is a better way to go.

Various cultures do not have to give up all their traditions and religion to integrate.

Those that cannot or will not accept this should not come here in future. If some groups show they don't accept this and are incompatable, then we should not import more of that group. Our social harmony is too important to allow conflict.
Posted by Banjo, Sunday, 11 March 2007 10:50:44 PM
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Surely, acceptance of nations' nuances is a positive feature of a mature democratic society, where feeling of biological difference must be left somewhere at family kitchen for family celebrations if any
Posted by MichaelK., Monday, 12 March 2007 1:20:27 AM
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I'm all in favour of MC, but 'hasten slowly' is my advice, allowing the foreigners time to integrate properly. Like the Greeks & Italians very successfully did. No wonder many of our new immigrants feel little affinity to Aus & its mores. I don't blame them. It's totally bone-headed to expect otherwise.

The Japanese aren't stupid & it shows in nearly everything they do. They wouldn't dare do to their country what we have done to ours. They must get a chuckle at our expense. Singapore can get away with MC because it is a 'one-party, zero-tolerance democracy'. When ethnic troubles arose many years back, it got squashed pronto & it's been an incredibly well-integrated place ever since. You cant have a softly-softly democracy like ours and have unbridled MC at the same time. We will find that out eventually. Of course the perennial do-gooders, who approach all these issues with a religious-zeal like it all has to be accomplished in their lifetime, will mean the transition isn't smooth. What fools.
Posted by TNT, Monday, 12 March 2007 4:53:10 AM
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By the way, agree, mushy article. He finishes:

"The real test has nothing to do with citizenship"

Yeah right! The first thing anyone learns in any citizenship course is about rights as well as responsibilities. The glue that holds a society together.

"it has to do with how we see ourselves as a civil society and how willing we are to accept the reality of who we are and what Australian society is."

Sounds great, and that will happen WHEN, not before, we all know our rights/responsibilities. Young-looking writer, and it shows in his writing.
Posted by TNT, Monday, 12 March 2007 5:17:50 AM
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Speaking of Japan, one should eventually remember this land is a thousand year old-at-least craddle of a particular nation as Commonwealth of Australia was established by a land grabbing two hundred years ago and still is not a sovereign political entity.
Posted by MichaelK., Monday, 12 March 2007 10:44:25 AM
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The reason, Boaz, that I keep harping on about you and your "ONE Nation, ONE Race, ONE culture" sounding so similar to
"Ein Reich, ein Volk, ein Führer" is that they appear to have the same origin and purpose.

You have substituted "race" for "people", which is significant, in that you make no secret of your movement's principle motivating force.

While the replacement of "leader" with "culture" is just a matter of time and place.

>>the danger of NOT taking a pro-active approach to fostering a vibrant Australian culture is that this fear you refer to will explode in another Cronulla<<

As I have pointed out before, Mods and Rockers in Brighton were an order of magnitude more "explosive" than the Cronulla spat,
yet no-one predicted the downfall of UK civilization in 1964.

(Or rather some extremists, conspiracy theorists and vested interests did predict it, but were properly regarded as the lunatic fringe.)

>>I proceeded to develop the idea of a blended society, where racist attitudes are broken down,
such that people of various cultural and racial backgrounds feel FREE (not forced) to intermarry<<

You say this, but your entire arsenal of wordy weaponry concentrates on vilifying Islam.

How can one fail to draw the conclusion that all the soft-soap about intermarriage is merely a smokescreen.

Hey, it isn't even credible - since when do we have a society in Australia where people are forced to intermarry?

>>another motive going on in Pericles mind.. could it be FEAR of your children marrying outside your racial comfort zone ?<<

Another stab in the dark. You stoop ever lower, Boaz, in your attempts to justify the unjustifiable.

>>Public Service Department heads will ... have to submit reports indicating what they have done to promote UNITY and cultural harmony.<<

They already believe that they are promoting the idea that
tolerance is the most powerful unifying force, so how will their reports actually change?

But you and I know that this is just a smoke screen anyway. Your self-imposed task is to promote the strongest possible antipathy between Christianity and Islam.

Isn't it?
Posted by Pericles, Monday, 12 March 2007 11:20:40 AM
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Yvonne.. Pericles is right ? hardly, he persistently suggests I stand for things I don't.

Horus picked this up, as have others.

You and Pericles are both going on about 'Imposed Monoculturalism'(Yvonne)and "Dictatorship" (Pericles) when I've said nothing of the kind. You better re-read the article and then realize that I'm walking the walk as well as the talk. I AM in a cross cultural marriage.

Pericles, for your benefit, I have 2 major issues which you are confusing.

1/ Australian Identity. (Purely Cultural issue)
2/ The threat of Islam. (National Security issue + some overlap into Cultural)

They are not synonymous, and speaking passionately about one, does not mean I am in fact promoting the other. Regarding Australian Identity, Islam is just one of a number of cultural threats.

Fukayama's quote mentioned in another thread is exquisite. Sums up all I've been trying to say on the matter. (MC)

Lack of Western Collective Identity+Post modern intellectual elite= Vulnerability to confident alien cultures. That is the whole thing in a nutshell.

If what I am promoting requires a 'Dicatatorship' it would not be worth promoting. As for "Imposed" I see no difference in imposing 'unity' reports on the public service as 'diversity'..you see a difference ? Thats not dictatorship, its democracy and POLICY and at the next election, if it is up enough noses, they government will be turfed out.

No smoke and mirrors here I'm afraid.. its all 'spade=spade' stuff.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Monday, 12 March 2007 8:21:36 PM
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Pericles, it must be truly abhorrent to live under the tyranny of monoculturalism. Imagine the very notion of a nation-state underpinned by a common culture where its inhabitants share the same national identity. It makes one feel like shedding a tear for the people of those monocultural Nordic countries which have the highest standards of living in the world. The tyranny of monoculturalism has also had an equally devastating impact on Japan by the sounds of it. Only until these countries embrace multiculturalism and import every foreign culture under the sun will this odious legacy of monoculturalism be completely expunged. United we fall, divided we stand?
Posted by Oligarch, Monday, 12 March 2007 11:57:01 PM
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Good try, Oligarch, but totally misdirected.

I am not suggesting for a moment that a naturally monocultural society is problematic per se.

Importing multiculturist policies to a natural monoculture, purely for the sake of doing so, would definitely be courting disaster.
In fact, trying to force any alien culture onto an established one is highly dangerous.

But we simply can't help ourselves, constantly trying to change the culture of another country from the outside.
Think about the US trying to force-feed democracy to Iraq. Doomed to fail.
Think of our present attitude towards trade with China - typified by Boaz's rants about slave conditions in their factories.
By what right do we think it is OK to lecture them on the manner in which they approach the challenges of a world economy?
Would we prefer they use the methods perfected by the earlier-developed economies - conquest and economic looting?

But what I do say is that to turn a naturally pluralist society such as ours, built by a long succession of migrants from
a variety of backgrounds, backwards in to a monoculture, is also a recipe for disaster.

The difference is simply whether these cultures have grown naturally, or have been force-fed.

Most of Europe is a mish-mash of centuries of intermixing nationalities until the only thing left is geographic boundaries.
South America is the result of centuries of Europeanisation led by the Spanish and Portuguese.
North America of course has the lot, including the descedents of African slaves.

But back to the idea that we should trade in our multicultural society for a monoculture that reflects the society we "rooly" are.

Prime amongst the my concerns about this backward step is who decides who we "rooly" are anyway?

Having had many generations of people happily living side by side in a multicultural society, exactly whose idea of our culture do we now choose?

Yours? Boaz's? Peter Jensen's? The Wiggles'?

I strongly suspect that the process of deciding which culture would itself take decades.

After all, she'll be right mate.
Posted by Pericles, Tuesday, 13 March 2007 4:42:08 PM
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It is so hard to quarrel: "The difference is simply whether these cultures have grown naturally, or have been force-fed."

So, Anglo-xenophobic opressive "culture", that is a basic stone of/for anything in Australia, had naturally locally grown.

With all my recent realism towards so-called Australian multiculturalism, I would say that culture is not a grass naturally growing wherever a seed wind to bring.
Posted by MichaelK., Wednesday, 14 March 2007 12:31:39 AM
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Pardon me, mylakhrion, for taking "one incident and make a fragmented society out of it. After all, schoolyard fights never happened before multiculturalism.". I shall be more careful next time.

And here's my next time:

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,21365317-421,00.html

"Armed intruders turn schoolyards into battlefields

March 12, 2007 12:00am

TERRIFIED students and teachers at government schools across NSW are under attack by intruders at a rate of more than one playground invasion a day.

The intruders carrying out these often violent assaults on school grounds include suspected criminals, aggressive ex-students and deranged parents.

Knives, broken bottles, poles, cane-cutters, a sword and even a paving hammer have been used to threaten or harm students, principals and teachers.

One of the victims of the incidents is a male Year 10 student who was assaulted by six youths while sitting an exam, while in another case an enraged parent tried to break down a door to "kill" a Year 7 boy.

Police were also called to a primary school in Sydney's west after the father of two students pulled out a knife and told a mother in Arabic: "You see this, I'm going to put it in your stomach when you leave."

...

the Governmenthas been forced to spend millions of dollars building large steel fences around hundreds of schools, installing elaborate security and putting principals through crisis management courses.

Incident reports show schools were forced to call police in 108 cases in which outsiders threatened the safety of students and staff over a 20-week period. In one case school leaders requested a guard.

Schools on a number of occasions have also become fearful mass organised brawls had been arranged involving their students.

...

The reports from last year show threats have been made to blow up schools and a homemade bomb exploded in one school playground at Condobolin, in the state's west. "

How many more incidents would you like before you take off the rose coloured glasses and smell the stinking feudal state that we are turning into? I would bet money that much of it is ethnic rivalry.

[continued...]
Posted by online_east, Wednesday, 14 March 2007 2:57:31 PM
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You can dismiss it as just a law-and-order issue that the police will deal with. But our society is breaking down and dumping the job of integration onto police is cruel and unreasonable - it's not their job. Here's the proof:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/police-quit-force-in-record-numbers/2007/03/10/1173478729169.html

"Police quit force in record numbers

March 11, 2007

NSW Police Force has suffered its biggest loss of front-line officers in more than two years, it has been revealed.

Between December 1 and January 31, 149 officers retired, resigned or were medically discharged, figures published by the state's Police Association show.

The exodus is 50 per cent higher than the 50 officers a month officially considered the force's natural drop-out rate."

It will soon be open-season, if it isn't already, because no-one wants to police areas of ethnic diversity.
Posted by online_east, Wednesday, 14 March 2007 3:00:21 PM
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Rereading many of the posts again I think many of us get stuck on our particular meaning of words. Words like culture and integration vs assimilation.

As a person who came to this wonderful country and made this my home from a different culture, the fairly recent concept of multiculturalism has made it much easier for my 'strangeness' to be acceptable. Because my English has an accent it is no longer assumed I'm NOT an Australian.

Who would make the long hard haul to become a citizen of this country to do so with the idea to recreate 'home' in its entirety? We all left 'home' for various good reasons. Reasons that made it untenable to remain there. Moving house can be hard. Can you imagine how hard it is to leave a country? So the reasons for coming here are generally considered more seriously than say getting married by some.

Please look up the meaning of the word 'Culture' and ALL that it entails. And to focus on a particular disgusting aspect of any one culture is not a valid argument to dismiss the value of MC. Every culture has disgusting aspects to it in varying degrees. If they are contrary to Australian law then that is the end of it. No matter what you say, every citizen of Australia answers to Australian law. In the citizenship ceremony you swear to that effect.

What we need to address is Integration. Integration as I understand it means that you feel part of Society as a whole. Why do some citizens, yes Citizens, feel rejected by, or outside of our society? Why do some feel like victims?

Not assimilation. Assimilation means negating where you came from. That's pretty well impossible to do.
And for those going on MC hates 'whites' bandwagon. Please! Think about the different 'white' cultures in Europe.

Basically, do we want to be a crispy tossed salad or mashed potatoes? I like being a tomato, but appreciate the lettuce and onions too.
Posted by yvonne, Wednesday, 14 March 2007 7:42:43 PM
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Pericles says:
“Importing multiculturist policies to a natural monoculture, purely for the sake of doing so, would definitely be courting disaster.In fact, trying to force any alien culture onto an established one is highly dangerous.”

Maybe there is still some hope for him!

Prior to MC becoming a hot thing with trendy ‘academics’ & politicians, Australia was a very healthy evolving monoculture…

People came here adopted the lingua franca
Adapted & slotted into the social & economic landscape .
Even the much maligned “anglo” Australians are not carbon copies of their English counterparts.
( if you didnt learn & adapt - you lost out socially & economically -it was entirely your own doing)

But now MC has introduced a new dynamic & it runs something like this :
If I don’t get my preferred job -It’s not my fault -it’s discrimination
If I or my children don’t get into the preferred college -it’s discrimination .
( never mind the fact that I haven’t bothered to learn English -or upgrade my skills)
And If someone makes a joke or prints a cartoon about ‘my group’ -its harassment.
(Just when we thought we were moving away from such archaic concepts as sacrilege, -we get lumbered with a new shaft of secular anti-sacrilegious mores!)

MC is not the freedom to practice your own religion or festivals -that has more to do with liberalism
MC is not having access to 15 different types of cuisine -that has more to do with enterprise

MC is the artificial attempt to entrench old identities. It is a lifeline for old conservative ethnic patriarchs who seek to isolate & retain the purity of their communities.

Currently MC has had limited success, because there are still sufficient incentives for most of the young to mix & match with their peers.

But with the growing trend towards one group schools, one group clubs, one group suburbs -the tide may turn..
Posted by Horus, Thursday, 15 March 2007 4:44:07 AM
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Yvonne,
How can you say that MC made it easier for you to be accepted? If you were not here before MC was introduced, you have no way of knowing that. Before MC we welcomed immigrants, made allowances for them and referred to them as "New Australians" a usually complimentary term. Now we still welcome immigrants, but some groups dictate to us what they require, and we are expected to comply.

It is a very courageoes thing to immigrate and I admire that courage, but I do not think that we give prospective immigrants sufficient information about our society. I believe most migrants rely on friends and relos to get information. These informants want their friends and relos to come here so pass on info that may not be always correct. For example, they may tell them that although FGM is technically against the law, don't worry because no one has ever been charged and the government turns a blind eye to it.

We should correct this information gap and ensure that prospective have all the info on which to decide if Australia is for them.

I certainly agree that integration is the way to go, we need to improve community solidarity.
Posted by Banjo, Thursday, 15 March 2007 10:31:11 AM
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Banjo

I arrived with my family in January 1976. 31 years ago. My brothers, sister and I started school 3 weeks later. I went to form 6 in Melbourne, I was 17 years and you would think us kids would be quite adaptable, especially as we had traveled a lot.

Believe me if I tell you that my first years in Australia were deeply traumatic. Not only for me, but for my younger siblings as well. Welcoming? I ate weird food, I did weird things. I spoke weird. My form teacher informed me that 'no way was I going to be able to pass my HSC.' My education would have been lacking. (I did pass, my previous education couldn't have been that lacking!)

My previous experience of starting school was in multicultural, multiracial societies in South America. My strangeness was more apparent there. I am 'white'. So, please don't pass it off as a teenagers are cruel thing. That happens all over the world.

In my class in Melbourne was 1 Chinese Australian. FOURTH generation. I remember someone asking him where his 'home' was. I was really surprised and asked him aren't you Australian? His response was that he gets that all the time. People assumed that he was not.

In those days the Greeks were suspect. I had one Greek Australian friend (2nd generation) who told me about his confusion about his identity. In Australia he was a Greek. In Greece, he was an Australian. Were did he belong? I wonder if the Lebanese Aussies feel like that?

Australia is an immigrant country. Not a country with a long standing hundreds of years monoculture. Australia is the best country in the world, it is a vibrant young nation. Its citizens come from all over the world and have diverse cultures, cultures, NOT nationalities. Go to a citizenship ceremony, there you will see people do not come here to destroy anything. Do we have to hide our heritage to proof that?
Posted by yvonne, Thursday, 15 March 2007 5:20:59 PM
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Yivonn,

Oh, yes, "Australia is an immigrant country" which makes putting citizenship test offered looking as next usual racist exercise this English colony deploys in variety of forms during all her history.

"What we need to address is Integration. Integration as I understand it means that you feel part of Society as a whole. Why do some citizens, yes Citizens, feel rejected by, or outside of our society? Why do some feel like victims?" -because they are being treated like a ... please, feel free to fill a gap yourself: moderator had already explained the possible using of the sharp words in this forum.

And what do you intend to say of "Society"? Are you a member of the particular clubs rabbi Hutnik jr., for instance, was not allowed in?
Posted by MichaelK., Friday, 16 March 2007 1:09:22 AM
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You can NOT have community when you are governed by CULTURE. MulticulturalISM is governing by cultural needs. My culture needs such and such. My culture demands such and such and we are X% of the population. Do you want to be elected or reelected. Then feed our demands. Please people Multiculturalism has nothing to do with many cultures other than to have weaponized that diversity to divide society into cultural enclaves and not have a continuous homogeneous mind set independent of culture. Who is going to recognize a Hindu person who promotes himself as being Hindu as Australian. Who is going to recognize a person of Chinese heritage as Australian if they promote themselves a Chinese. If only the White and Aboriginals promote themselves as Australian it will be common place to view any other persons by race or "culture". If a person of Scottish heritage persistently promotes himself as being Scottish you don't say to yourself, there goes an Australian. This is the reality of multiculturalism and why it is an abhorrent practice for governing or qualifying societal requirements on the whole.
Posted by aqvarivs, Friday, 16 March 2007 3:51:39 AM
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aqvarivs

That's exactly what used to be commonplace 20 years ago and is rearing its ugly head, 'white' people and aboriginals did and now again, see themselves as the Australians. The rest of us are Chinese, Lebs, etc. Not as an Australian who happens to be Chinese, or Lebanese. Especially if you are not caucasian you stand out.

Do we want to go back to that time when non-Anglo new Australians felt a kindred spirit, because we understood what it means to pledge allegiance to Australia, but always remain suspect unless we can deny we had a previous life? Our children embarrassed and rejecting of us, their parents, because we are not 'Aussie'?

I recently had my own son say to me 'me and my mate were the only Aussies there, everybody else was ...(Asian I think)'This is what the current media and political climate is doing. I was shocked. Seeing my son was born of 1 new immigrant and 1 foreigner, I had to point out that the 'non' Aussies probably had similar claims to Aussienis as he did.

During the Cronulla riots there were 'whites' running around with MY flag around their shoulders beating up on others. I am livid about that kind of desecration. Racist gang violence tarted up to be about love for one's country. What absolute crap.

And on clubs celebrating other cultures, you are welcome. Get rid of that Anglo chip on your shoulder and celebrate what your fellow citizens have to offer or organise an English club. I'll visit, I miss the English pub atmosphere with apple cider on tap while debating the pros and cons of a hereditary class or the old British Empire that I got to know when living in GB.

We ARE united because we are Australians. We love this country because it is free. If a person is free to announce his Catholic faith in high political office, a Hindu shouldn't have to keep his Hinduism secret. Wouldn't you as a voter rather know?
Posted by yvonne, Friday, 16 March 2007 7:54:42 PM
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"Do we want to go back to that time when non-Anglo new Australians felt a kindred spirit, because we understood what it means to pledge allegiance to Australia, but always remain suspect unless we can deny we had a previous life?" -so, had something changed since "that time"?

Espesially, for not-linked to the UK biologically?
Posted by MichaelK., Saturday, 17 March 2007 1:54:10 AM
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Yvonne,
It appears that you arrived here about 3-4 years after multiculturalism was imposed on us and the public did not have say in it. Many people had their back up because we had no say and many "cultures" were demanding their rights and slice of the pie under MC. It was expected that people of the host country,us, comply and accomadate these "cultures". Australians had no culture anyway, it was said.

Therfore you cannot compare the situation before MC was introduced and by your description, Mc did not make it any easier for you.

Now the community is saying 'We have had enough of this MC. It hasn't worked and the community is more divided than ever'

No one I know expects migrants to denounce their heritage or forget it, or hide it. What is expected is that migrants leave behind any hatreds they had for others and to respect our laws and social standards, Other than that they can live where and how they please.

Our laws and social standards must be the basis of the society. It would be totally stupid to allow new arrivals to have 'carte blanch' of their cultures. Can you just see things like poligomy, dog meat and dolphins,whales being consumed, FGM common place, cockfights and bullfights held every Saturday, firearms carried openly in public.

So standards have to be in place and we,the host country, set those standards.

In any case, MC has been dumped in favour of integration and that has to be a vast improvement in community cohesion.
Posted by Banjo, Saturday, 17 March 2007 11:20:40 AM
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Banjo, your wishful thinking blinds you to the truth.

Your myth: "...multiculturalism was imposed on us and the public did not have say in it."

The facts: Mulicultural policies were developed by successive democratically-elected governments of both persuasions. There have been numerous opportunities for the Australian people to renounce these policies at elections - they have chosen not to do so.

Your myth: "Many people had their back up because we had no say and many "cultures" were demanding their rights and slice of the pie under MC. It was expected that people of the host country,us, comply and accomadate these "cultures". Australians had no culture anyway, it was said."

The facts: You present a cliched distortion of multiculturalism. See multiculturalism on Government websites. (http://www.immi.gov.au/living-in-australia/a-diverse-australia/government-policy/australians-together/current-policy/principles.htm)

Your myth: "Now the community is saying 'We have had enough of this MC. It hasn't worked and the community is more divided than ever'".

The facts: The 'community' continues to support multicultual policies. The 'division' is principally in conservative blog sites where people like you claim to speak for 'the community' - without any mandate. In the real world, Australians continue to experience and appreciate the benefits of multiculturalism.

Your myth: 'Migrants' don't abide by the law in Australia and have what you call 'carte blanch' . "Can you just see things like poligomy, dog meat and dolphins, whales being consumed, FGM common place, cockfights and bullfights held every Saturday, firearms carried openly in public."

The facts: Australia expects all people in this country to obey the laws of the land. If laws are broken, the criminal justice system is put into operation.

Your myth: "In any case, MC has been dumped in favour of integration and that has to be a vast improvement in community cohesion."

The facts: Despite Howard's continuing ambivalence, the policies of multiculturalism remain - as do programs for their impementation. The word 'Multiculturalism has been replaced by the word 'Citizenship' in the title of a Government department.
Posted by FrankGol, Saturday, 17 March 2007 1:21:56 PM
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Frank,
Part1
1) Spot-On -“Multicultural policies were developed by successive democratically-elected governments of both persuasions”
Successive govt’s of BOTH major parties have supported MC, or at worst/best shown “ambivalence” towards it.
But that is at is precisely the point -It has never been put on the table as single yes or no issue .
( & lest you ask - minor parties/independents have bugger all show - with such an issue -under our system)

And while on the subject of imposing MC- if you have school age children you will know that they are spoon-fed sugar coated versions of MC by MC friendly teachers - under the guise of cultural studies /history/ public speaking etc …

2) “Australia expects all people in this country to obey the laws of the land. If laws are broken, the criminal justice system is put into operation“.
True - but MC ( & its associated isms) has been used as an excuse to modify the letter of the law & how it is applied.
Thus - now while it is virtually open season to criticise or joke about some groups or religions, others have protected status …&
While the law outlaws discrimination -we know some groups qualify (either directly or indirectly ) for “ positive discrimination” .

Most of the young, from most of the MC groups, despite all the best efforts of MC will eventually for all intents & purposes dump MC - I see it happening every day- but some hardcore groups & careerist academics will continue to use MC for all its worth to milk the greater community.
Posted by Horus, Saturday, 17 March 2007 3:01:49 PM
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Frank
Part2
3) And re your website references- you place to much credence on what you read in Govt pronouncements . I’m sure if the you read the Soviet constitution you’d also find a lot of similar flowery- motherhood statements.

[AND PLASE DON’T TAKE THIS THE WRONG WAY!]

When I say you early post re the precepts/aims of MC & again with this last one I immediately taken by the thought that it could be the basis for a really good Monty Python skit:

Now picture this:
You could have some serious John Clease at a lectern reverently reading the principles of MC to a hall crowded with MC acolytes.
The acolytes are all hyped up & intently hanging off every word - with born again fervour .
Each time John Clease finishes one of the MC precepts the crowd all shout halleluiah! & raises its arms skyward.
Posted by Horus, Saturday, 17 March 2007 3:03:44 PM
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FrankGol,
You are the one with the facts wrong. Firstly MC was imposed and we did not have a say in it. Just the same as we did not get a say in the Iraq war. The Whitlam Government, through Grassby, got the idea from Canada and brought it in. The Fraser Government continued with MC. It was never a referendum issue and both Libs and Labor had an agreement not to raise Immigration as an election issue.They reasoned that it was too complex for us voters to contemplate. The truth was neither party could defend their actions and their support for big business. So electors did not get a say. With enforced preferential voting one of the major parties get your vote no matter who you put first.

Yes it was expected the we the host population accomodated the other "cultures" and it was widely said the we had no culture and these factors created anger amongst many Aussies.

I have read the spiel that various governments have put out and that is not the case in reality. All cultures do not love one another. Look how the croats and serbs get on. What about the rude and offensive attitude of male Lebs to female workers in shops, schools anbulance, police,etc. Now we have Leb gangs fighting Asian school kids. The cronulla situation grew because leb gangs were tryting to take over the beach there by intimidation and anti-social behaviour.

The British Government has dumped MC and so has Labor and Liberals here.

Read what is said Frank. I said it would be totally stupid to give all new arrivals "carte Blanch" for their cultures. Then gave some examples of some aspects of cultures not acceptable. I further went on to say that we have to set the basic standarfs of law and social standards for our community.

In any case MC has been dumped and I look forward to the dismantling of the MC industry, probably after the federal election, no matter who wins.
Posted by Banjo, Saturday, 17 March 2007 4:14:28 PM
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Horus,

Do you expect Governments to put all social policies like multiculturalism to a 'single yes or no' plebiscite? Would you include plebiscites about the sale of Australian assets like Qantas and Telstra, universal health care, funding for private schools and even capitalism and democracy itself? Governments take the initiative with election platforms. If enough people don't agree, they vote the Government out at election time. That's democracy - a 'yes-no' vote.

As for 'minor parties/independents' having 'bugger all show', remember the GST (Democrats), abolition of university student unions (Family First)?

My school age children were not, as you put it, 'spoon-fed sugar coated versions of MC by MC friendly teachers…' They were taught to think for themselves, using evidence and logic. In that light, it will be interesting to see if your prediction is validated that 'Most of the young, from most of the MC groups, despite all the best efforts of MC will eventually...dump MC'. Interesting paradox there Horus: the schools, you say, are spoon-feeding our young with MC, but you see them 'dumping' it.

You claim that 'MC ( & its associated isms) has been used as an excuse to modify the letter of the law & how it is applied'. Can you give any concrete examples? And the groups that qualify for 'protected status' and 'positive discrimination', who specifically are these?

Who specifically are the 'hardcore groups & careerist academics' who 'will continue to use MC for all its worth to milk the greater community'? Can you name names? Or would that overtax your conspiracy theory? In the light of the discussion about democratic elections, what do you mean by 'the greater community'?

I agree that all governments use flowery rhetoric, but what's your point? When people criticise or support multiculturalism, they are often debating different and quite unrecognisable social policies. It helps to anchor the discussion with what the Government at least says it is.

As for Monty Python, Cleese would find hilarious script material in OLO attacks on Multiculturalism. The old Aunt Sally theme leaps to mind.
Posted by FrankGol, Saturday, 17 March 2007 4:45:16 PM
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MULTICULTURALISM is IT for places where segregation and apartheid rule.

Hands off MC in Australia!
Posted by MichaelK., Sunday, 18 March 2007 1:42:53 AM
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yvonne, That you think governing by cultural need is more beneficial to Australia than governing to Australian needs says volumes.
I have no interest in assuring whether or not your cultural needs are met. Or being taxed to ensure they are. If you can not achieve your own cultural requirements I pity you. That would make you not only socially challenged but culturally challenged as well. Do you get more tax revenue as a community of disabled cultural social victims?
That you attribute something you read in another post to me and use that as an excuse to flaunt your racism says even more. You have no idea what my colour or race is. I would consider it a kindness if you actually read and comprehended what I post rather than insinuating and inserting comments or arguments from others postings.
From what I can tell it is you who carries the chip. But then again as you say. You've gotten great benefit from doing so.
If your Australian. You will promote yourself as Australian and people wont give a tinkers bell ring if your Mediterranean, Asian, American, or European. If you must promote yourself as being from some other place then it is only natural that your motives towards everyone else not of that culture become suspect. And that is MC ISM at it's worst. It has nothing do do with St. Paddy's day Parade or Chinese New Years or a Greek Festival. Or being Jewish, or Christian, or Muslim. It isn't the presents of diverse cultures that makes a country multicultural. It's when the country is governed by cultural dictates. It is just wrong. It separates communities into cultural enclaves and divides people on issues according to culture and not as if they concern all Australians period.
Posted by aqvarivs, Sunday, 18 March 2007 4:26:55 AM
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Banjo, you and Horus sing the same chorus. Keep mangling the truth about multiculturalism - you and he continue to believe a simple-minded spiel.

“MC was imposed and we did not have a say in it.” Yet, you say that the Whitlam Government brought it in and the Fraser Government continued it. These were Governments of different political complexion elected by the Australian people with clear policy mandates.

But, you whimper, “It was never a referendum issue”. And because there was no referendum, you conclude that “electors did not get a say.” Was there a referendum on the GST, or the IR reforms, or Medicaire, or funding for private schools, or the sale of Telstra and Qantas, or the invasion of Iraq? Governments govern, and if we electors don’t like their policies we vote them out. That’s democracy.

You say that: “both Libs and Labor had an agreement not to raise Immigration as an election issue”. You are simply confusing immigration and multiculturalism – they are different. Immigration policy (in simple terms) is about who should come to this country. Multiculturalism (in simple terms) is about how different cultural groups in Australia should relate to one another.

You allege it “was widely said that we had no culture and these factors created anger amongst many Aussies.” Who said that? The Government? Your friends? Your plumber? Whoever said it was stupid.

You say: “All cultures do not love one another.” All Catholics don’t like all Protestants – sufficient reason for uniform religion in Australia?

You allege: “The British Government has dumped MC and so has Labor and Liberals here.” Wishful thinking, Banjo. In Britain “Tony Blair has backed the idea of a multicultural Britain in the latest ‘Our Nation's Future’ lecture.” (6 December 2006 www.number-10.gov.uk/output/Page10563.asp) and the majority of British people agree (August 2005 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4137990.stm ).

The examples you gave last time of aspects of unacceptable cultures are all currently against the law and bear no relationship to Australia’s multicultural policies. We agree on this: Australian laws set social standards for our community. Why the paranoia?
Posted by FrankGol, Sunday, 18 March 2007 2:14:50 PM
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FrankGol,
Your only concern is to put spin on matters to suit your own agenda.

For others that are interested. Google up Telegraph.com 9-12-2006 and see the full text of Tony Blair's speech. Any impartial and reasonable person will deduce that Blair has dumped MC. He talks a lot about separetism and integration. In his last line he says about "Duty to integrate" Wonder why Frank did not give a link to that?

Anyway I'm not here to convince you Frank. That would be impossible.
But be prepared for change. All will be revealed in the fullness of time.
Posted by Banjo, Sunday, 18 March 2007 3:27:09 PM
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Banjo you're living in dreamland buddy! MC can't simply be dismantled. We've got quite a few generations who grew up with it and who actually like learning about other cultures and peoples and customs. It can be re-named to whatever suits your fancy but the only way to halt it is to shut the airports.

Have you found out what MC is? What the government defines as multiculturalism? There is no discrepancy between accommodating various cultures and maintaining rule of law. Cronulla is not the face of MC - Chinatown is; Leichhardt is; your neighbour is.

PS. There's a huuge difference between England and Australia. This isn't England.
Posted by bennie, Sunday, 18 March 2007 4:42:20 PM
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bennie,
I said the dismantling of the MC industry!

You may not realise that there is a whole industry built up around MC, both State and Federal.

There are millions of dollars of taxpayers funds spent each year on this. Not only for staff but all sorts of projects. Have a look at the annual reports of the relevant departments.

That is what is going to be dismantled.

I hope some of the saved funds will be spent on integration promotion.
Posted by Banjo, Sunday, 18 March 2007 6:38:34 PM
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Saturday - Banjos claims: ‘The British Government has dumped MC (Multiculturalism)’

Sunday @ 2.15 – FrankGol says : ‘In Britain “Tony Blair has backed the idea of a multicultural Britain in the latest ‘Our Nation's Future’ lecture.” (6 December 2006 www.number-10.gov.uk/output/Page10563.asp)’

Sunday @ 3.27 – Banjo says: ‘Google up Telegraph.com 9-12-2006 and see the full text of Tony Blair's speech. Any impartial and reasonable person will deduce that Blair has dumped MC…In his last line he says about "Duty to integrate" Wonder why Frank did not give a link to that?’

Real time (now) - FrankGol says: The link I gave goes direct to the PM’s speech. Far from dumpimg MC, the British PM said:

‘So it is not that we need to dispense with multicultural Britain. On the contrary we should continue celebrating it. But we need - in the face of the challenge to our values - to re-assert also the duty to integrate, to stress what we hold in common and to say: these are the shared boundaries within which we all are obliged to live, precisely in order to preserve our right to our own different faiths, races and creeds.’

Here is the last paragraph which Banjo falsely alleges I didn’t give the link to. Look at the last line. Readers can decide for themselves who’s telling porkies.

‘If you come here lawfully, we welcome you. If you are permitted to stay here permanently, you become an equal member of our community and become one of us. Then you, and all of us, who want to, can worship God in our own way, take pride in our different cultures after our own fashion, respect our distinctive histories according to our own traditions; but do so within a shared space of shared values in which we take no less pride and show no less respect. The right to be different. The duty to integrate. That is what being British means. And neither racists nor extremists should be allowed to destroy it.

'The right to be different. The duty to integrate. That is what being British means.'
Posted by FrankGol, Sunday, 18 March 2007 7:54:54 PM
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Bennie
1) “We've got quite a few generations who grew up with it and who actually like learning about other cultures and peoples and customs“
What does that prove- zilch!
Studying culture/history is not MC !
( I like studying history, cultures & languages too!)

2) And you don’t have to “ shut the airports“ to stifle MC - JUST TWO SIMPLE STEPS:
i) Make MC pay its own bills - then stand back & watch the stampede as the hangers-on, realising there are no more free lunches, desert…&
ii) Remove the escape clause -built into the MC infrastructure - which allows people/groups to attribute their own individual or the groups lack of comparative performance to discrimination.

3) Australia may not be England but we are certainly on the slippery slope…
The main difference is -our MC nurtured/inspired bombers weren’t successful -England’s were -but we’ve always got next time eh!

Frank
Lets not beat around the bush.
Of course Blair is not likely to say MC is abolished forthwith -the party is other!
But note his use of the word “integrate”.
I can remember just a few short years ago, all talk of integration was deemed racism & at odds with MC …
It’s the thin edge of wedge Frank!

PS Frank -please watch your tongue, I noted you used the word “PORKIES”.Now, a culturally sensitive person like yourself should know that pigs are strickily taboo with certain cultures- SO PLEASE -lets not offend !

(Disclaimer -the use of Roman numerals in the above does not signify support for MC)
Posted by Horus, Monday, 19 March 2007 2:44:47 AM
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Can one advice how to change "ten Australian multiculturalisms" on normal human life somewhere in "a melting pot"?
Posted by MichaelK., Monday, 19 March 2007 11:01:24 AM
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MichaelK,
a melting pot society is still multicultural. It isn't governed by multiculturalism. Australia is multicultural and is governed by cultural influence as is government lobbied under cultural banners. We don't do what's best for Australia. We do what's best for that particular culture that screams the loudest at that moment. After that it's down to all the special interest groups. Australian political savvy can be best described by the old saw, "The squeaky wheel gets the grease". And there's only so much grease. Somebodies got to suffer or do with out. Which means victim status becomes very desirable. Which means being a victim becomes desirable. So we have become a nation of victims.
It's wrong to say Australia doesn't have a culture. Multiculturalism has given us the culture of the whinging special interest society.
Squeek, squeeeek, squeeeeeeeek.
Posted by aqvarivs, Monday, 19 March 2007 1:05:55 PM
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Horus,

You say: ‘Of course Blair is not likely to say MC is abolished forthwith…’ I ask why? If Multiculturalism is so unpopular in Britain as you and your shadow, Banjo, say it is, why wouldn’t he get rid of it?

Maybe he read the BBC poll (6 August 2005)? The majority (62%) of British people think Multiculturalism makes Britain a better place (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4137990.stm ). As one commentator said: ‘Those who thought it fashionable to bash multiculturalism should think again.’

You claim that Tony Blair’s use of the word ‘integrate’ signifies his real intention to abolish Multiculturalism. Rubbish! Multiculturalism has always encouraged new arrivals to integrate with mainstream institutions and services. Here are Blair own words:

‘…Multicultural Britain was never supposed to be a celebration of division; but of diversity. The purpose was to allow people to live harmoniously together, despite their difference; not to make their difference an encouragement to discord. The values that nurtured it were those of solidarity, of coming together, of peaceful co-existence. The right to be in a multicultural society was always, always implicitly balanced by a duty to integrate, to be part of Britain, to be British and Asian, British and black, British and white. Those whites who support the BNP's policy of separate races and those Muslims who shun integration into British society both contradict the fundamental values that define Britain today: tolerance, solidarity across the racial and religious divide, equality for all and between all.

‘So it is not that we need to dispense with multicultural Britain. On the contrary we should continue celebrating it. But we need - in the face of the challenge to our values - to re-assert also the duty to integrate, to stress what we hold in common and to say: these are the shared boundaries within which we all are obliged to live, precisely in order to preserve our right to our own different faiths, races and creeds.’

Multiculturalism encourages integration, and discourages separatism.

On the allegedly offensive word ‘porkies’: do you think I should have used the plain word ‘lies’?
Posted by FrankGol, Monday, 19 March 2007 2:33:27 PM
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Banjo what would be the point of removing the mechanism where Australians can help other new Australians? Is it the social security costs? Sure, we can let them pay their own bills. We could ask every interest group - arts councils, libraries, swimming pools, community centres, whoever it is that decides to spend millions on fireworks over the city on NYE, you name it - to pay their own bills. But we don't. Is there really a need to explain why?

Is it just foreigners? How many have you spoken to that have dictated to you what they want? If you're thinking of the talking heads on TT, and you think they're representative, you'd believe their articles on miracle diets too.

Ah, discrimination. It depends on who shouts it first, and loudest. MC contains no escape clause. The governemnt's MC policy is less than a page long. If you read it you will see there is no provision for any discretion in matters of law. And the next guy who claims discrimination will do it regardless of official government policy. Why let it needle you? There are plenty of Australians who cite discrimintation to the point that it has no practical meaning.

'Integration' is all very nice but how to achieve that if immigrants don't have the opportunity to learn the language, get a qualification, have a place to live etc? Not everyone has the wherewithal to survive without help. I'm happy for my taxes to go towards that. I'd sooner see parliament make do with a lot less, than see those who need it go without.



"Can you just see things like poligomy, dog meat and dolphins,whales being consumed, FGM common place, cockfights and bullfights held every Saturday, firearms carried openly in public." ?

Nope.
Posted by bennie, Monday, 19 March 2007 4:56:14 PM
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Bennie that was a great post. I wrote a long post answering some of the comments directed at me, but wiped it. I'm getting so tired of saying that Australian citizens who are proud of their heritage are not hellbent on destroying the culture of the country they've sworn allegiance to. It is because of the very essence of Australia that the majority of immigrants chose Australia.

As Bennie said, money is spent on many interests on behalf of groups. Some of them we agree with wholeheartedly, others we don't. We are being told ad nauseam how fabulous our economy is and what a huge surplus we have, but it isn't exactly being used to uplift or improve services to the Australian citizenry or to develop a vibrant art industry is it? Why is it that all Australia's talent goes O/S?

If there is indeed a disappearance of Australianims, and I actually think so, don't blame MC. Blame the commercial media, the drastic funding cuts to the ABC and the poverty stricken Australian film making industry. In European countries local Films and TV production are heavily subsidised, because nobody can commercially compete with the American entertainment industry. I would love to see 70% Australian content on TV and more Australian movies. Generally I find them better and more entertaining than the American tripe we get flooded with.
Posted by yvonne, Monday, 19 March 2007 6:32:01 PM
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Frank,
Re the “popularity” of MC.
We all like partying -particularly if someone else is picking up the tab.To the public MC is usually portrayed as festivals & dance/bread & circuses.

What is not usually exposed/apparent is the inevitable social engineering which is a core component of MC. The idea that all cultures/religions are of equal merit (though in practice you usually have some ethnic cultures which are more favoured than others ) & seeks to ensure and equal outcome from unequal input.

Thus you have periodic surveys/studies run by ‘academics” or commissions which measures the relative performance of the different minorities & invariably finds one of the other is doing less well & invariable ascribes the less well performance to discrimination by the host/major culture ( never lack of input from the minority culture/group) And then seeks to prescribe various govt funded initiatives ( read positive discrimination/preferential treatment) to redress the situation.

In the same vein you will have the introduction of shaft of secular taboos/censorships which may outlaw certain words, jokes,cartoons ,books,films, opinions & previously traditional practices by the host culture in the name of removing discrimination & harassment . But once again these are usually selectively applied. ( What is notable & sad is how quickly, usually independent & intelligent people, unquestioningly - come to follow such edicts eg ‘porkies’).

The terrorists who bombed the London underground are true children of MC.Most of these young men had fair to good personal prospects.
But felt themselves to be more the appendage of some external group than British.They felt more kindredness for people who live thousands of kilometres away -whom they may never have met -than people living in the next housing estate whom they went to school with or worked next to, & whom they sought to kill.

Terrorism is a sickness but it is only a secondary infection. It rides on the back of, or follows the primary malady/infection which is MC.
Posted by Horus, Tuesday, 20 March 2007 2:02:17 AM
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Horus,

Now you're getting down to tin tacks, Mate. Multiculturalism is popular because people think it's just about partying! In their false consciousness, they fail to see the social engineering behind Multiculturalism. Stupid people! Let's take their vote away from them and keep it safely in the hands of sensible people like you and Banjo.

Let's abolish surveys and studies about multiculturalism and govenment funded initiatives - they're all dangerous and give people ideas. You already know what's good for people, without all that research crap. And wasting taxpayers' money when it could be better spent on useful things like sport (none of that wogball soccer, mind) and cheaper television (and we can do without the wog station).

Let's go back to the good old days when we were free to use any words, jokes, cartoons, books, films, opinions without being told they were offensive. If we want to discriminate against 'wogs' and 'refos' and 'abos', why not? That's the Ossie way and they'll soon learn to grow thick skin like the rest of us.

As you say, Multiculturalism breeds terrorists - the true children of MC. I just love it, Horus, when you talk dirty: "Terrorism is a sickness but it is only a secondary infection. It rides on the back of, or follows the primary malady/infection which is MC." That's soooo sexy!

I reckon we should draw up a list of targets - starting with everyone on OLO who supports the dreaded MC disease. If they refuse to accept their inoculations, they should be handed over to the true children of MC for the full treatment.
Posted by FrankGol, Tuesday, 20 March 2007 8:05:11 AM
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bennie,
From where did you get the idea that MC teaches immigrants English or helps them get qualifacations for jobs? MC is simply a philosophy that rates original culture ahead of national loyality.

It fosters seperate development of groups, with an aim of a fedreration of ethnic cultures, when what is needed is one community.

Have a look at some of the annual reports and see where the millions are spent.

I am quite surprized that you do not believe that if we dropped our laws and lowered our community standards, there would not be a dramitic rise in aspects of alien culture. Some of the unacceptable aspects I mentioned are carried out now,against the law.

There is at least on young girl per week, in NSW, suffering the truama of FGM. Do you realize what that does and its affects? Would that not increase if it was made lawful? Occasionally cockfights are reported and it is not unknown for dogs to be slaughtered for meat. Last year,SA passed laws prohibiting the human consumption of dog meat. Oh, and I did not even mention some of the worst cultural aspects of some people. What about slavery, incest and pedophillia. Do you think we should allow these cultural practices.

If you say "nope" they will not increase if we drop standards, then you don't know human nature very well. It is absolutly vital that we maintain the laws and community standards.
Posted by Banjo, Tuesday, 20 March 2007 10:50:44 AM
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Why did I think that pedophilia was mainly perpetrated by True blue Aussie blokes with English sounding names, both here and in Asia? Why did I think that the women trafficked as sex slaves are mainly 'consumed' by Aussie blokes? If there wasn’t a ‘market’ for them it wouldn’t occur now would it?

And as for incest, rape, and wife bashing, my experience working for almost 30 years in Public hospitals has been that it is unfortunately very, very common in the ‘mainstream’ Australian community. Are they ‘mainstream’ Australian values in action? Or just Crimes?

Thanks Banjo for straightening out my errant thinking. It must be all those non-nationalistic, Aussie hating cultural types who have brought this evil here

ALL Australians are subject to the law. Issues like FGM and carrying guns openly (Somalia and USA) are often either controversial or against the law in those countries as well. They are against the law here. It is wishful thinking that 'cultural values' could be used as a defense in a violent crime. Except perhaps if you are an Aussie male forcing his wife to have sex by using 'rougher than usual handling.'

A year ago I spoke with a young Canadian man, he was shocked with the prevailing misogynist attitude amongst his Australian peers towards women in general at a University here. He was shocked to hear blokes even speak in a derogatory way about their girl-friends. He did not experience that with the Malaysian (Muslim and non) and Chinese students. He was here for 2 years. That to him was ‘typical Australian’. Is that an Australian cultural value? Or didn't he get the 'joke'?
Posted by yvonne, Tuesday, 20 March 2007 12:32:13 PM
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Banjo

You ask Bennie: 'From where did you get the idea that MC teaches immigrants English or helps them get qualifacations [sic] for jobs?'

Multiculturalism is opposed to people being excluded by lack of English. That's why the Government funds English language programs for immigrants and refugees - adults and chilldren. For children, there are hundreds of programs within the school system many under the "English as a second language - new arrivals" scheme . (http://migrationexpert.com/content/living_in_australia_education.asp)

For adults, there are two Government-funded programs depending on the level of English. The Adult Migrant English Program (AMEP) which was established in 1948 is for recent arrivals in Australia, with a basic level of English. The Advanced English for Migrants Program is for permanent residents who are seeking employment in Australia and have above basic levels of English. (www.immi.gov.au/living-in-australia/help-with-english/learn-english/links1.htm#vic). So Bennie is right.

You allege: 'MC is simply a philosophy that rates original culture ahead of national loyality.' This is a fiction in your fevered imagination.

You tell Bennie: 'I am quite surprized that you do not believe that if we dropped our laws and lowered our community standards, there would not be a dramitic rise in aspects of alien culture. Some of the unacceptable aspects I mentioned are carried out now,against the law.' I note the small word 'IF' - no Government would ever be elected in Australia on that platform.

You acknowledge that the examples you gave of 'cultural practices' are all unlawful and occur infrequently. Your example of eating dogs sinks your already weak argument. You yourself tell us that SA passed laws prohibiting the human consumption of dog meat. That's what happens - unacceptable practices are banned when they come to attention.

No-one of any substance is advocating these practices. Yet you continue to throw up the fear that things could get crook IF governments legalised them. 'What about slavery, incest and pedophillia,' you ask rhetorically, 'Do you think we should allow these cultural practices.'

You invent a monster and call it Multiculturalism.
Posted by FrankGol, Tuesday, 20 March 2007 3:46:21 PM
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I'm not proposing we dilute our laws or make it any easier for those who have been brutalised overseas to practise barbarism here. One of the main, practical aims of MC is to teach our laws to those who aren't familiar with them. You could stop calling it multiculturalism and call it something else, if you like.

There will always be those who do stuff that amaze us 'normal' people. But not all of them are foreigners. Most are the same as you and me. Talk to one!
Posted by bennie, Tuesday, 20 March 2007 5:08:49 PM
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Yvonne,
Your sarcasim won't do you much good. If you thought pedophilia was only carried out by Aussie blokes and sex slavey existed because of demand by Aussie blokes and incest the same. I would have to say you were blind, stupid and niave. You need to do a lot more research.One thing you are right about is that they are crimes here and rightly so.

When I say these matters are aspects of some cultures, I mean exactly that Pedophilia, incest and sex and work slavery are part of some cultures. Look them up. In some cultures it is common for parents to sell their children into slavery. Pedophilia and incest are also common in some societies. Have you not heard of "child brides", for example.

By saying "nope" bennie indicated that he did not believe there would be an increase in alien aspects of cultures if we lowered our standards and did away with our laws. The point I was making is that we, the host country, make the laws and set the standards. Even if it is against their culture. Immigrants have to accept that.

The term multiculture is itself not really correct. Migrants may have to give up some aspects of their culture to meet our standards, so therefore how can we claim to be multicultural. We are multi-racial.

bennie,
One more thing about migrants learning English. We were holding English classes for migrants looong before MC ever came along and with the demise of MC we will go on holding Englich classes for migrants.

You are right about this not being England and I am most grateful for that as we do not have the extent of their problems caused by weak migration policy, MC and letting illegal immigrants into the community. Of the illegals, many are being ripped off by unscrupulous landlords and employers.

The big question many Poms are asking is the current actions of Tony Blair, in dumping MC, "too little too late"?
Posted by Banjo, Tuesday, 20 March 2007 8:14:52 PM
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Frank,
Now Frank I think you’re the one whose is “ being silly”( to use a quote from your earlier post to David)…

1) Lets start by reviewing your position re democracy:
The first line you took was -MC had been legitimized by the electorate having electing successive govts that favoured MC.

But when it was pointed out to you that successive govts from both sides of politics supporting the same issue did NOT constituted a choice …

You jumped to –oh well, the electorate didn’t need to vote on this issue.

It seems mighty like you’ve got your mind set on supporting MC –regardless of the facts or democracy…
Posted by Horus, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 12:33:45 AM
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FrankGol dismisses the assertion that "MC is simply a philosophy that rates original culture ahead of national loyality" as a "fiction" of a "fevered imagination". Such unfounded, dogmatic certitude on behalf of FrankGol is breathtaking.

I refer to the pertinent example of an OLO author and multicultural industry beneficiary by the name of Jieh-Yung Lo. Rather than identify himself as Australian, Mr. Lo's revealingly describes himself as an "Australian-born Chinese man". And this Chinese man has the audacity to lecture Australians on why they should embrace multiculturalism.

Link:
http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=5537

The Land of Oz is increasingly resembling an ethno-cultural Tower of Babel (please excuse my politically incorrect biblical reference).
Posted by Oligarch, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 1:17:14 AM
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There is nothing like a good old fashioned racial argument in the name of multiculturalism. Australian born Chinese and Australian born Greeks and Australian born.... etc., etc. Until the money runs out and a new budget is in the making then it's all singing Australia Uber Alles.
I came to Australia for the culture.... My Own.
And it's up to the Australians to ensure the perpetuation of my culture. You never know. One day we might paint a rock pink or mold some clay into the shape of a bottle opener, or do an abstract drift wood carving that kinda looks like a fish...then we'll see who has the last laugh. Then you'll have wished you fully supported us from the beginning.
Multiculturalism has been so effective in Australia that the govermint had ta make a "Office of Cultural Harmony" to police the various cultures and see that they all get along.
Oh, Man. There's nuttin like a good joke.
Posted by aqvarivs, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 3:36:25 AM
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Frank,
2) A DAY IN THE LIFE OF MULTICULTURAL AUSTRALIA
( as experienced from the street level, -not the pulpit level, which is normally your perspective Frank)

i) An employee from XYZ group tells her employer, a large govt authority, that unless she gets the next promotion , She will cry discrimination . She does get the next promotion & the one after that as well. While other Australians -equally qualified & experienced - but not belonging to any officially recognised MC minority, languish…

ii) Employees a warned they must not display any pictures of partly clad females .A man from a minority is however allowed to display revealing pictures of his family& friends since it is ‘traditional’ for them to dress that way …

iii) Two employees are in the canteen .They are discussing the situation in the middle east-while they eat lunch .They are over heard to express views that are considered ‘offensive’ by a woman at the nearby table . They are reported & both of the offenders are sacked forthwith. The govt authority proudly relays the event to employees as a 'warning' …

iv) A woman from XYZ minority grew up in a high-status family. She had access to nannies, chauffers, private school education, speaks perfect English ( & I may add maintains a very superior attitude) . She is classified for MC purposes as a minority .As a result she gains access to special in-house training & ‘hands-up” initiatives while other Australians raised in farming & working class backgrounds, but born here, are ignored …

[ all the above are true stories - not make believe]
Posted by Horus, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 4:35:07 AM
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Happy Harmony Day everybody :)
Posted by CJ Morgan, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 8:02:49 AM
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Echoing CJ Morgan, Happy Harmony Day!

Horus, you distort my argument. I said that successive governments - Coalition and ALP alike - legitimated Multiculturalism. The counter-argument came: the people didn't have a say in that because there was no referendum. I countered that by saying that referenda are rare; overwhelmingly, governments introduce policy without referenda because they think they are acting in the national interest. If enough people they're wrong, they can vote them out at election-time. That hasn't happened. It's reasonable to conclude that only a minority of Australians oppose Multiculturalism.

Oligarch, you accuse me of 'unfounded, dogmatic certitude'. And you do it with 'unfounded dogmatic certitude'. But I'm not your prime target. You call Jieh-Yung Lo a 'multicultural industry beneficiary' and berate him for having the 'audacity to lecture Australians'. Wouldn't you feel better if you dealt with his ideas rather than name-calling and mud-slinging?

Horus, having no counter to my substantive arguments, you resort to unconfirmed anecdote. You produce four workplace stories as if they typify Multiculturalism. They sound like examples of poor management and inadequate workplace relations to me. They are no more symptomatic of Multiculturalism than Banjo's 'poligomy, dog meat and dolphins, whales being consumed, FGM common place, cockfights and bullfights held every Saturday, firearms carried openly in public'.

As aqvarivs says, today of all days: 'Oh, Man. There's nuttin like a good joke.'
Posted by FrankGol, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 9:20:40 AM
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Also “a melting pot society is still multicultural” (by aqvarivs, Monday, 19 March 2007 1:05:55 PM), there is a significant difference between MELTING and MIXING - to technically literal definitely.

Pedophilia (along with incest) is really very common in modern UK&Co as understood from internet and media, and in Australia just being financially sustainable could afford this entertainment, which to great extent grounds yvonne observations.
Posted by MichaelK., Wednesday, 21 March 2007 5:05:10 PM
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Frank,
It has been stimulating discussing the issue with you.
Catch you (out) again next time.
Have a nice day.
Adieu!
Posted by Horus, Thursday, 22 March 2007 3:35:46 AM
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MichaelK, I would say New York City, New York, USA. is probably one of the largest "melting pot" societies on earth. People have migrated there from the four corners of the earth to live and work and contribute to that society. No one begrudges another their culture, and no one has to pay to ensure the prosperity of any persons culture, and their laws and social construct are not dependent on culture. Yet diverse cultural expression exists and flourishes. Imagine. And all that with out the dictates of "multicultural ISM".
Posted by aqvarivs, Thursday, 22 March 2007 4:25:05 AM
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I love New York.

And I easy see topic-related problems both there and round the States in many places I had been to.

However, it differs from Australia much,aqvarivs.
Posted by MichaelK., Thursday, 22 March 2007 4:47:00 PM
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There is a key difference between New York's ethnic diversity and Australia's systematic national suicide driven by high immigration in combination with multiculturalism.
Posted by Oligarch, Thursday, 22 March 2007 8:51:47 PM
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MichaelK, yes it does, and if you ask a person of Cuban heritage or other Hispanic or Vietnamese or Chinese, or British or German, or whatever their heritage may be, to identify themselves as I did. You get a look that suggest your stunned and told, "I'm a New Yorker. Whadaya think. I'm stand'n right here in front of ya ain't I. Sheesh"
A very different response than one would receive in Sydney or Melbourne.
In Australia if you ask that same question the person would likely hold you captive until they had explained their families migratory history in full. I've even heard people say such things as, "Well, my great-great grandfather came over from England and....
Posted by aqvarivs, Friday, 23 March 2007 5:32:18 AM
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New York, (the city) has a multicultural curriculum in its public schools. The policies on MC in the US are decided on State by State, and even institution by institution. Depending on the mix of the population. Many areas in the US are very, very multicultural. New York is very proud of the fact. They actually bear out Jieh-Yung Lo’s premise that a policy per se is not needed, we’ll be a multicultural society anyway, simply because we come from all over the world.

In California for instance it is compulsory to learn Spanish at school. You are only exempt if you speak another language, other than English, at home. (California is effectively bilingual) This is the dilemma facing my Dutch/Italian cousin. She now regrets not teaching her children more formally in both languages. She still speaks these languages with her parents and extended family.

In the States there is also discussion about multiculturalism/ cultural democracy/ cultural pluralism. These also entails Afro-American culture, White mainstream culture, gay culture etc. The difference in the States to Australia is that it doesn't seem to be used to cast doubt on a person’s loyalty to the nation or the unity that American's feel. Wouldn't it be great if we could do the same
Posted by yvonne, Friday, 23 March 2007 7:51:00 PM
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FrankGol says: "Oligarch, you accuse me of 'unfounded, dogmatic certitude'. And you do it with 'unfounded dogmatic certitude'. But I'm not your prime target. You call Jieh-Yung Lo a 'multicultural industry beneficiary' and berate him for having the 'audacity to lecture Australians'. Wouldn't you feel better if you dealt with his ideas rather than name-calling and mud-slinging?"

I'm might also accuse you of evasiveness.

Mr. Lo explicitly identifies himself as Chinese rather than Australian. Does this not directly contradict your denial that multiculturalism places allegiance to ethnicity and old culture over Australian nationality?
Posted by Oligarch, Saturday, 24 March 2007 2:08:08 AM
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YVONNNNNE....

"Basically, do we want to be a crispy tossed salad or mashed potatoes? I like being a tomato, but appreciate the lettuce and onions too."

Yes dear.. but we don't single out each ingredient.. we glory in the SALAD.. and thats my point. And as each ingredient contributes, we say "Yep..that was a great SALAD" We don't say "Mmmmm the tomatoes in that salad were great" well, not usually I think.

So, its a thing of emphAAAAsis.. Lets focus on the goal "A great Salad". That way the tomato farmers are working in the interests of the Salad..NOT just the Tomatoes :) Sound ok ?

"Mashed Potato" sounds a bit like Pericles "Who will 'POLICE' these things".. like the only alternative to MC is tyranny and jackboots slamming everyone into a cultural mould. No no no....the alternative is:

Assisting migrants of different cultural background to embrace Australian culture BUT at the same time, being completely OPEN to beneficial aspects of those cultures which we can incorporate into the emergin Australian identity. One Body, many parts, all function for the benefit of the whole. One Salad, many ingredients.(PLEASE don't miss this point)

Cheers.

PERICLES. I'm noticing a 'pattern' .. you seem to have a 'thing' about seeing huge evil conspiracies and dark forces at work when people disagree with you or speak about things which unsettle you.
People speak about encouraging a healthy Australian nationalism' and you only see a Mosely, a MonoCulture and Tyrants from whom you must fleeeeee.
Your repeated points about who will 'police' things.. tells a lot about your inner fears I think, and your projecting of this as an overlay on other peoples views. I can't help but think of the 'domestic pets is slavery' in all this
Posted by BOAZ_David, Saturday, 24 March 2007 9:20:46 AM
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In fact..its as simple as this.

At a gym I attend, there are Lao, Cambodian, Iranian,Greek,Anglo,Indonesian,Philipino, Samoan people oops..wait..

no thats not right..

because when we are all interacting and getting along fine we are AUSTRALIANS. (and heaven forbid, if our kids get along well also, and shock horror are attracted to each other.. gee..their children might no longer be 'pure' any of those races, but they will sure be pure "Australians" no matter what their racial mix.

*smile*
Posted by BOAZ_David, Saturday, 24 March 2007 6:16:51 PM
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http://theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,21431285-2702,00.html?from=public_rss

English not best test of a doctor
Clara Pirani, Medical reporter
March 23, 2007

DOCTORS from Iraq, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh - who struggle to have their medical qualifications recognised in Australia - score higher marks in Australian medical exams than doctors from Britain who are courted by the federal and state governments.
A report commissioned by the Howard Government, but never released, found Australia's health system was overly reliant on young doctors from English-speaking backgrounds who were not adequately supervised.
The report - the most comprehensive undertaken into the use of overseas-trained doctors (OTDs) - recommends the Government increase funding to upgrade the skills of doctors who want to become permanent residents, to reduce the reliance on "backpacker" doctors.
Doctors who come from countries with similar medical systems to Australia - mostly English-speaking - can enter the country on temporary visas and are not required to take the examinations of the Australian Medical Council.
However, many of the doctors are recent graduates who are appointed to senior positions, according to the report's author, Lesleyanne Hawthorne, associate dean international of the University of Melbourne's faculty of medicine.
...
"We found doctors from the Middle East and north Africa were treated with a lot more wariness by employers, even though they were less likely to fail the AMC exam than English-speaking doctors."
Andrew Schwartz, president of the Australian Doctors Trained Overseas Association, said state governments were reluctant to employ experienced doctors from non-English-speaking backgrounds, and that too few positions were filled by permanent residents.
"Governments are wasting money bringing in these temporary residents who leave, when we really need bridging courses to get permanent residents into the workforce," he said.
Posted by MichaelK., Sunday, 25 March 2007 12:41:34 AM
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>>PERICLES. I'm noticing a 'pattern' .. you seem to have a 'thing' about seeing huge evil conspiracies and dark forces... Your repeated points about who will 'police' things.. tells a lot about your inner fears I think<<

Your ability to put words into the mouths of others is pretty illuminating too, Boaz. You can only respond to arguments that you dream up yourself, right?

If you check back through the posts, you will find that my only references to "policing" are in response to your brain-dead vision of Australian monoculturalism.

For example, the only time I have used the word "police" on this thread was in this particular interchange with you:

You had said:

>>Lets test that ? The threat happens to be a massive influx of Chinese capital buying up properties<<

To which I responded:

"This is a threat to whom?

Are you seriously suggesting that we should not sell houses to the Chinese? Could you please give me an idea how you would a) introduce such a scheme and b) police it?"

Each time you introduce one of your fatuous proposals, you will also need to find a way to support it in law. So, it will need to be policed, right?

There is no "fear" of policing involved. It is purely my way of pointing out that your suggestions are simply self-indulgent hot air, without the slightest will to actually enforce them.

And of course, they would in any case be impossible to implement in a free society such as ours.

Thus your idea that I am somehow concerned about "conspiracy" disappears in derisive laughter. I have far too much faith in human nature to worry that there might be the remotest chance that your sad musings will actually ever be implemented.

Take for example this particularly meaningless soundbite:

>>the alternative is: Assisting migrants of different cultural background to embrace Australian culture...<<

Exactly what form do you suggest this "assistance" should take, Boaz?

What would we do differently in Boazland?

Do tell.
Posted by Pericles, Sunday, 25 March 2007 1:08:26 AM
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Pericles,

You should do what already xenophobic Anglo-racists did, do and are doing in Australia- to sale houses and other their goods and services if any, to biologically inferior non-Anglos, Chinese among them, and deny so-called mainstream employment opportunities to all but only own Anglo-mates.

And one is wondering at growing islamist affluence in this rubbish English colony?
Posted by MichaelK., Sunday, 25 March 2007 11:30:06 AM
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PERICLES.. 'assistance' in the form of education, and outreach by government to facilitate it. Plain and simple. The government has enough resources to work out ways of promoting the embracing (without rigidly excluding the beneficial aspects of other cultures) just like they currently have programs which support diversity.

SELF HATING RACISM .... yep..I experienced that last night. Quite strange really. Not really self hating either.. but self deprecating.
I attended a kickboxing tournament in Melbourne Town hall, and one of the fighters was a Cambodian bloke. He did pretty well, but lost on points to an Aussie. To me it was about a draw. But I was talking later to a Cambo bloke who was also observing. He was with about 3 quite robust looking Asians from Dandenong. We exchanged enthusiasms about the various competitors, and enjoyed friendly banter as blokes are known to do. But what quite stunned me, was when he suggested "Aussies are much stronger than Cambos" and he connected this to the food and even hinted at race etc.. but I disagreed about that. I suppose on an across the board comparison, Australians by racial heritage are generally bigger, but size for size, I can't see 'stronger'.

Anyway.. the point I really want to make is that there were many races present, and many of migrant background, and they tended to group in racially identifiable packs. Yet, there were noticable cross connections between them. Including my own interaction with various others. I asked one bloke if he was a kiwi (he looked like Duane The Rock Johnston, from wrestling and movie fame) but he turned out to be Greek.

What I most found appealing though, was that once I started conversations with noticably ethnically different people from myself, they really warmed to it. I believe there is a longing in all migrants to be accepted, feel included, and simple personal outreach is probably a very good step towards achieving this.

Here endeth the sermon :)
Posted by BOAZ_David, Monday, 26 March 2007 8:03:51 AM
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Boazy, every now and then you warm my heart (in between the non-believing despair you can engender).

What you described is to me Multiculturalism in action. Before you choke on your damper, what I mean is that with MC a person is allowed to be a tomato and be proud of it (or even apologetic) and because of that can talk to the onion, the lettuce etc. The one is not more important than the other, but part of the whole salad.

In this way we can converse with each other about what it means to be a tomato, etc. And as you experienced, discuss, acknowledge and disagree about misconceptions and experiences. This is how we learn as human beings. This is why it is interesting to be able to talk openly with someone from another culture as one Australian to another.

Our children will absorb and take on aspects of their parents' culture and those around them. I believe it is by acknowledging different cultural backgrounds we all learn that essentially as human beings we are the same. We want personal safety and a future for our children.

Previously cultural differences were hidden from 'mainstream' society and I believe this is what forms ghetto's and isolation. It is with 'your own kind' that you feel safe, there you will not be told 'when in Rome do as the Romans do', (I've been told this way back in the 70's, even though I might not have wanted to behave like a Roman-like getting blotto), and treated like a barely tolerated 'guest' in a 'host' country.

Often I feel that Political Correctness gets in the way, which has little to do with celebrating or respecting cultural diversity. Misplaced PC should not be confused with multiculturalism. We either all celebrate or we pussyfoot around in our own little corners feeling like victims.
Posted by yvonne, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 9:00:58 PM
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Yvonne: "Misplaced PC should not be confused with multiculturalism."

Excellent point, yvonne. I also noticed that Boazy was verging on an appreciation of multiculturalism in practice, but of course he couldn't help expressing it in 'racial' (i.e. racist} terms.

I've actually just enjoyed a salad for dinner, comprised of lettuce, baby spinach, tomatoes, (Lebanese) cucumbers, eschallots, celery, avocadoes and my secret dressing ;) My vegetarian partner reckons I make the best tossed salads in the world.

Lovely analogy, really. And crisp, rather than 'mushy' :)
Posted by CJ Morgan, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 9:31:13 PM
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Yvonne,

Multiculturalism is not my topic of interest. But just for once I cannot resist giving my 2-cent worth.

Do you believe if tomato, onion and lettuce were to have thinking minds, they would happily agree to stay together in a salad sandwich? Perhaps not. Perhaps each vegetable would prefer to impress the tastebuds of the muncher in its own right! But they do not have a choice, do they? For it is the sandwich maker who put them together.

Will the vegetables agree that together they make a tastier meal? I'm not convinced either.

Moral of my anecdote: Multiculturalism is futile, if it is only about putting different cultures together.

For it is not Multiculturalism that matters. It is OPEN-MINDEDNESS.

If Multiculturalism does not lead to open-mindedness... then hear this loud and clear - Multiculturalism is dangerous. The more of it, the more dangerous it will be.

Does Multiculturalism lead to open-mindedness? I seriously doubt it. I think not enough to justify Multiculturalism.

I do not even believe Asians (that look similar) are accepting of each other, let alone all races, all religions.

So how can we survive Multiculturalism without sufficiently gaining in open-mindedness? The key in fact, is to have a benign but yet dominant culture. The 'Anglo-saxon' culture has a critical role to play, the role of a sandwich maker.

The day when all minor cultures successfully clamour for dominance is the day this country is 'doomed' by Multiculturalism.

Worst still, the day when Islam culture gains dominance in Australia, you know the ENTIRE World is already doomed.
Posted by GZ Tan, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 10:04:24 PM
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GZ Tan, don't blame Muslims for creating the society they want. It's their right under multiculturalism. The culture with the most representatives rules. Australia had an opportunity to create a genuine multiracial society but, chose to govern by culture instead. Now Australia has competing cultures and no genuine Australian society. Each enclave unto itself. Muslims and Islam might be our only hope of reversing the nihilism running rampant in Australia. The dictates of Islam might be the impetus needed to change some of the laws and we may finally get around to living together as a society, rather than manufacturing, social engineering society by political trend.
Posted by aqvarivs, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 11:56:43 PM
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Bon appetite, Yvonne: "The 'Anglo-saxon' culture has a critical role to play, the role of a sandwich maker "-rather of a vegetable spread as a religions-obsessed too big effect leaves sandwich-making up to own gods.

I am very sorry-which " 'Anglo-saxon' culture"? -mentality and culture of the UK-biologically-linked differ between Anglo-sphere countries, depending on political systems and surroundings. And paedophilia, incest and over-saturated interest to all sexual are recently common worldwide.
Posted by MichaelK., Wednesday, 28 March 2007 1:40:12 AM
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aqvarivs, Islam and multiculturalism are contradiction in terms.

Multiculturalism is based upon the ideals of free-speech, freedom of religion, freedom to choose one’s religion, secularism, freedom of thought, tolerance, respect and cross-fertilisation of the best from every culture.

But these ideas are foreign to Islamic teaching. First, you (assume a non-Muslim) can eat all types of Muslim food but they can't eat yours because it is not halal. Then you need separate utensils for eating and cooking because you non-Muslims are declared unclean by their "God".

Koran in the fifth Surah and verse 51, specifically teach Muslims to be hostile towards Christians and Jews, .."take not Jews and Christians for your friends and protectors..."

A Muslim book for kids in the UK teach that "…Christians and Jews as pigs and monkeys".The Director of the school was given the opportunity to condemn the book but she does not intend to do so because she is a Muslim. http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/newsnight/2007/02/tuesday_6_february_2007.html

You, a non-Muslim is welcome by the Muslims to convert to Islam but when a born-Muslim leaves his/her religion, he/she must be put to death or be disowned by his/her family. So multiculturalism in a non-Muslim majority society becomes determined by the narrowest and most prejudiced practices of Islam.

The Muslim can criticise other religions and political systems but non-Muslims can't say anything bad about Islam or else it will send the Muslim world running amuck destroying buildings, properties, etc. or cutting off heads of Christian girls like they do in Indonesia.

Islam has to reinvent itself to fit this modern world, otherwise they are best left to themselves.
Posted by Philip Tang, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 2:28:54 AM
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Philip Tang, "Multiculturalism is based upon the ideals of free-speech, freedom of religion, freedom to choose one’s religion, secularism, freedom of thought, tolerance, respect and cross-fertilisation of the best from every culture."

Philip, "Multiculturalism is a philosophy that is sometimes construed as ideology advocating that modern society should at least embrace and include distinct cultural groups with equal cultural and political status. (Wikipedia)"

It is this observable and manufactured social and political schism that ensures that the majority culture rules. White Anglo-Saxon "British" culture once ruled as a majority culture in Australia. Not any longer. The majority of those people have chosen socialism or nihilism or feminism and would prefer not to reproduce. It's really become too much trouble for the poor wretches to cope with it all. Australia must have migrants to keep the machine running because the originators have bailed on their society. It's as simple as that. If the originators had taken up the responsibility to maintain their own society migrants would not be needed and multiculturalism would not be an aspect of governing. People would and could still migrate to Australia but, they wouldn't be NEEDED to maintain the machine, so such a high value wouldn't be assigned to each culture. Most certainly not equal social and political status as under multiculturalism. "British culture" once dominated. Now we are waiting to see who's will be the new dominate culture. There are two you can exclude form this cultural race. Aboriginal and Anglo-Saxon. Feel free to cheer on your own. It's your cultural right.
Posted by aqvarivs, Wednesday, 28 March 2007 4:41:49 AM
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Yvonne..glad to know I warm your heart sometimes :)

But I grab a bone and POINT it at that scallywag CJ Morgan (who is now cursed) who will find a 'racist' behind every rock and under every green tree.. like the Israelites of old had their idols.

I tell a simple story of human interaction and he finds racism in me, - Unnnnnbelievvvable.

I hope CJ goes for a walk around Dandenong some time, and he would quickly be aware that there are many very noticably different races there, and that speaking about this reality of life is nothing to do with racism.

The core issue of 'Multiculturalism' and the most offensive is the TERM itself.
a) It is not needed.
b) It suggests the predomimant culture is now just 'one of many' rather than what it really is. (Our Culture)

If we ever have to explain who 'our' is or apologise for it, then we may as well pack our bags and goto antarctica.

What IS needed is that we teach people in our society to love each other as ourselves ! That includes respecting their culture and THEY respecting ours. It also includes migrants being taught that when there is a clash of culture, the prevailing one must prevail .... this (for the umpteen zillionth time) is plain good manners.

We need emphasis on CITIZENSHIP not 'multiculturalism'

Good Citizens:
-Care about others.
-Respect others.
-Are due respect from others.
-Do not treat people of a different race or cultural background in a demeaning way. (But if needed, they do helpfully point out that you don't 'bow' or rub noses in greeting others in Australia, you shake hands)
-They will even help those with limited English to improve by explaining how we use some words or giving hints about correct grammar to convey correct meaning.

SO.. "Multi-Culture-alism OUT..and 'CITIZENSHIP' IN.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Thursday, 29 March 2007 10:57:59 AM
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BOAZ_David

You are so predictably arrogant and blinkered on this topic.

You define 'Multiculturalism' in a specific manner i.e. as offensive, then condemn it - as offensive. Your own circular argument is not only dishonest, it is unhelpful to those really interested in the debate. Please find out the difference between a descriptive definition, a prescriptive definition and a programmatic definition. (Any standard text on clear thinking will help.)

For you, a philosophy that you label as 'Multiculturalism' somehow "suggests the predomimant culture is now just 'one of many' rather than what it really is. (Our Culture) If we ever have to explain who 'our' is or apologise for it, then we may as well pack our bags and go to antarctica."

An old legal trick - ask a double-barreled question or describe something as two things - and then ask the defendant whether they agree or disagree. Yet you know full well that an explanation of 'our' is quite different from an aplogy for 'our'.

Then comes your sleazy appeal to 'plain good manners'. What used to be called 'might is right' is morphed into a false THEM/US dichotomy.

Speaking of false dichotomies: since when has CITIZENSHIP been the opposite of 'multiculturalism'

Finally David (although I am not optimistic that you will get it) your claim that "in greeting others in Australia, you shake hands" may well be true for you but for many of us a warm bearhug is infinitely better. Please stop telling OTHERS (your put-down) how WE conduct ourselves in Australia.
Posted by FrankGol, Thursday, 29 March 2007 11:40:16 AM
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FrankGol,

Like some, you formed a pre-conceived opinion about someone that affects your perception of what that person actually says. (This is not good for open-mindedness.)

1. BD did not define Multiculturalism. He did NOT present a circular argument as you claimed.

2. People are entitled to regard MC as being offensive or otherwise. No need to take offence just because BD is the one who mentioned it.

3. To suggest that under MC, each and every culture is just "one of many" is correct. It is plain straight forward argument. No 'legal trick' that I can see.

4. BD did not say CITIZENSHIP is the opposite of MC. Further, BD did not suggest CITIZENSHIP and MC are mutually exclusive. (But even if two entities are mutually exclusive does not make them opposites).

5. BD emphasised CITIZENSHIP, like many people would. No need to take offence just because BD is the one who mentioned it.
Posted by GZ Tan, Thursday, 29 March 2007 2:44:58 PM
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BOAZ_David

With fans like GZ Tan, who needs opponents? GZ Tan tells us that you did not define Multiculturalism. Like all good debators, you have of course - and often (and badly). And if you didn't, how can we make sense of what you say on the topic?

GZ Tan says you are entitled to regard MC as being offensive or otherwise - even you who does not define it! In what sense can someone be entitled to regard MC as offensive if they don't define what it is?

By denying that you present a circular argument, GZ Tan draws further unwanted attention to that circular argument (Multiculturalism is horrible in my opinion; therefore I think Multiculturalism sucks).

GZ Tan says you don't use legal tricks, thus drawing attention to your use of a cute rhetorical trick of conflating explaining and apologising.

GZ Tan draws further attention to your false dichotomy of citizenship with multiculturalism ("Multi-Culture-alism OUT..and 'CITIZENSHIP' IN) when he/she denies the dichotomy exists in your post.

GZ Tan thinks my pre-conceived opinion of you affects my perception of your ideas and that I take offence at your ideas only because of who you are (in my pre-conceived opinion). Obviously GZ Tan must think I take offence at all the other writers to OLO whose ideas on Multiculturalism I oppose.

With supporters like CZ Tan you may as well pack your bags, as you say David, and go to antarctica. I'm sure you're robust enough to speak for yourself.
Posted by FrankGol, Thursday, 29 March 2007 4:12:43 PM
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FrankGol,

I am not supporting BD as such. It could have been someone else.

1. Aqvarivs provided a 'definition' for MC earlier: "Multiculturalism is a philosophy that is sometimes construed as ideology advocating that modern society should at least embrace and include distinct cultural groups with equal cultural and political status. (Wikipedia)". I have not read a definition coming from BD. So you wrong'ed BD with that circular argument claim.

2. Aqvarivs's definition clearly suggests under MC, each and every culture is just "one of many" ie. with equal status.

3. "Multiculturalism OUT CITIZENSHIP IN" from BD is completely different from: "CITIZENSHIP can only be IN if/when MC is OUT". BD did not claim they are opposite/mutually exclusive.

4. Not at all, I do not think you take offence at anyone/everyone who disagree with you on MC. I simply think people have a tendency to misread someone once a preconceived opinion is formed.

I am sure BD is robust enough to speak for himself. I am just a busy body.

Now it seems to me it's alright for you to pick on someone but don't take it kindly from a 3rd person, judging from the way you rant.
Posted by GZ Tan, Thursday, 29 March 2007 5:38:50 PM
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Frank, we can make this very simple.

You claim I 'define' MC in a certain way. Let me repeat it again.. my quarrel is with the TERM itself. You can do many (but not all) the things the 'actual' concept currently involves, as long as it is not called 'multi' culturalism. I can handle 'assimilation assistance', 'Integration assistance' any term which recognizes that there is in fact.... an "Australian" culture and identity which welcomed newcomers.

This is why the word 'citizenship' is so fundamentally important.

I honestly don't see your problem.

I have 2 main prongs of my argument.

1/ Focus on 'citizenship'
2/ Focus on assisting newcomers to be good well informed citizens.(i.e.Australians)

Our culture is dynamic, and will continually adjust and change, no biggy, but don't put barriers up to blended gradual change by emphasizing difference. Instead, facilitate and encourage unity at the cultural level.

Why do we have to even mention 'multi' cultural ? What does it achieve ?
I can tell you ONE result is surely achieves.. it offends, insults and denigrates all those who claim 'Australian culture' as theirs.

Is it such a bad outcome to kindly guide newcomers into our midst as new members of 'us' ? Why do you persist in fencing them in as 'them' ? (by defending 'multi' culturalism)

It the reality is as benign as you claim.. then the change of name to 'citizenship' should not worry you in the slightest.

Currently a lot of funding goes to organizations which support cultural 'DIFFerence'.. I want to see funding goto the same organizations but with the criteria of allocation being INTEGRATION/ASSIMILATION and growing close to us.

Are you by any chance a recipient of "MC" funding ? It would explain your rather curious defense.
GZ..thanx :) I'm robust but a word of support for the ideas (not me personally) is always welcome mate. 'Thanx Cobber' :)
Posted by BOAZ_David, Friday, 30 March 2007 1:45:35 PM
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David, you want to replace the word ‘Multiculturalism’ with the word ‘Citizenship’. This suggests that, having defined both, you dislike the first and prefer the second. You ‘honestly don’t see my problem’. Let me assure you it’s not semantic.

My problem now is that both your concepts are too narrow. For example, you say you “can handle 'assimilation assistance', 'Integration assistance' any term which recognizes that there is in fact.... an ‘Australian’ culture and identity which welcomed newcomers.” Even limiting your argument to ‘Citizenship’, your focus is fixated on THEM, the newcomers, and you miss the importance of helping US come to terms with cultural diversity. (The THEM/US dichotomy is your construct, and not mine - but let’s keep things simple for argument’s sake.)

I don’t emphasise difference - rather diversity. What we have in common is far more important than what makes us different. I agree that unity is important and some concept of Citizenship might engender unity - which is not the same as uniformity (a vastly different concept).

If you and sufficient others find that the term “‘Multiculturalism’ offends, insults and denigrates all those who claim 'Australian culture' as theirs” (whatever that means), then by all means change it. Alternatively, we could ask them to try again to understand that it is not ‘Multiculturalism’ that does that but a distortion of the concept.

But changing the label won’t change the broader concept – policies should help all people living in Australia to understand and respond positively to diverse cultures.

CZ Tan, Aqvarivs's definition of Multiculturalism is not mine nor is it the Australian Government’s. OLO is riddled with people constructing programmatic definitions of ‘Multiculturalism’ only to knock them over. We used to call this game Aunt Sally.

David and CZ Tan, I am not in receipt of public funding, ‘Multicultural’ or any other. Nor do I participate in OLO in order to ‘pick on someone’ nor to ‘rant’. I’ll leave that schooldays stuff to others. I’m interested in complex ideas, elegantly expressed using logical argument and relevant evidence.
Posted by FrankGol, Friday, 30 March 2007 3:04:27 PM
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Why this irrational obsession with diversity for diversity's sake? Does FrankGol also demand that the Bhutanese government, for example, import cultural diversity for diversity's sake?

In fact, why should the majority culture be obliged to give equal status to alien minority cultures? Why should Australia, a product of Western civilisation, be forced to accommodate every backwards non-Western culture at the expense of its own traditions? Maybe, just maybe, the people who actually built this nation would prefer to preserve their dominant culture.

Diversity is supposed to bring cultural enrichment, but yet its achievements are like tomorrow - there are always still coming. Instead, we have cultural division, ethnic tension and parallel communities. Chinese immigrants do not arrive with a curator's knowledge of Ming ceramics and copies of the Tao-te Ching in their pockets. Rather, they huddle into urban ghettos, excaserbating the ethno-cultural schism between non-assimilating minorities and the rest of Australian society.

Despite his prolix, FrankGol refuses to answer the question as to why Mr. Lo identifies himself as Chinese rather than Australian. Gone are the days when 'Australian' exclusively denoted European ancestry. So why are we still having this debate? Is this not multiculturalism placing allegiance to ethnicity over nationality? Maybe I am holding FrankGol to unreasonably lofty heights - nobody ever said that multiculturalists were intellectually honest.

People who live in a culturally homogeneous society tend to feel a sense of community. They feel a sense of responsibility and protectiveness toward these people. With good leadership and a population sharing common culture, values and traditions, the community is strong. Fragment that homogeneous society and you destroy the sense of community and shared identity. This is applicable on the national level.

It is therefore understandable why ethnic minorities form exclusive communities separate from the rest of Australia. As there is no obligation for them to integrate into the mainstream Australian community, ethnic tribalism is now the norm. Yet, when it comes to the mainstream Australians seeking a stronger community built around common culture, values, history and traditions, the diversity police come out in force.
Posted by Oligarch, Saturday, 31 March 2007 8:34:14 AM
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Frank said:

"I don’t emphasise difference - rather diversity."

:) mate.. umpteen zillion jibes almost come to mind there.. but I'll resist.

The main bone I wish to pick with you this time is your reluctance to recognize there is an 'us' (Australians, Australian culture) and a major point is that you used the word UNIFORMITY.. suggesting that this is what I'm standing for.

How many times do I have to state it.. I'm for a 'blended' society, where the best of all cultures are combined. This will mean a DEGREE of uniformity, but nowhere near the extent you are suggesting like its some clone factory.

Uniformity is a noble goal, but FORCED+RIGID uniformity is abbhorrent. Guided, gradual uniformity is not a bad thing.

In terms of culture, and anthropology related to 'culture shock' syndrome..the term is 'studied adjustment' as opposed to 'going native' or 'Denial/rejection' retreating into ones own sociocultural eggshell.

It is with the idea of 'studied adjustment' that I suggest funding should be allocated.

You seem to be incredibly persistent in maintaining diversity (which is 'difference' for crying out loud) for its own sake.
Ok..we can disagree on that, I personally love the idea of familiarity, predictability, a sense of 'us'. If I want a serious dose of chinese culture I'll zip off to malaysia or somewhere. Sheesh, its only 7 hours away.

But the thing is, where ever we go to find cultural entertainment and enrichment, it always turns out to be a mob with a VERY strong sense of 'US'.. thats why the Chinese and Malays were hacking each other to death in 1969 in Malaysia.

Being part of a national family is a pretty nice idea. Each has his own temperement/personality, but they are connected by a common culture.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Saturday, 31 March 2007 9:59:04 AM
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"Chinese immigrants... they huddle into urban ghettos..."

No doubt there are far too many Chinese migrants within a short time, since the day Bob Hawke cried a tear during the Tiananmen massacre.

But look, if this country were to be screwed by Multiculturalism, by politicians with more emotion than brain, one can still be positive this way - Be glad it is Chinese who came instead of migrants of the Islamic kinds.

Or else you would be seeing numerous Muslims ghettos where you would not dare venture. Ghettos where you would be lynched to death wearing a "Muhammand sucks" T-shirt or tossing a Koran in a bin.

Whereas it is quite alright to come in bikini to a Chinese ghetto, wearing a T-shirt critical of Mao, Confucius, Buddha... whatever. I think you may even find some Chinese warming to some of that.

Who allowed in migrants of the Islamic kinds? If we can swap out the lot with more Chinese, then I am all for it.
Posted by GZ Tan, Saturday, 31 March 2007 10:02:30 AM
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Oligarch, when the topic is Bhutan, let’s debate Bhutan. In the meantime, back in Australia you ask, “Why this irrational obsession with diversity for diversity's sake?” I dunno. I haven’t seen anyone argue that line. Diversity is a fact of Australian life – not some future aspiration. Let’s deal with it rationally. After all, Australia was diverse before Cook and has been ever since. The First Fleet was racially mixed. Post-War diversity stimulated Australian manufacturing and people from many ethnic backgrounds built modern Australia.

You assert that we now have “cultural division, ethnic tension and parallel communities”. Could those phenomena be your own creation with your supremacist concepts like ‘majority culture’ and resentment of so-called ‘alien minority cultures’? You create a mirage where YOUR Australia is “forced to accommodate every backwards non-Western culture at the expense of its own traditions.” Your language is as strident as your history is weak.

David, I don’t think of myself as part of your 'US' trying to control 'THEM' however much you dress your assimilationism in euphemisms like 'studied adjustment'. I live in a wonderful country culturally rich and secure in its diversity - a term which can only be conflated with difference by those who are blind to the semantic difference.

If I want a dose of Chinese culture I can choose to zip off to Little Bourke St. It’s only ten minutes away. Interesting, however, that you should contemplate getting a fix of Chinese culture in Malaysia and not China.

Your mate, CZ Tan tells us: “Be glad it is Chinese who came instead of migrants of the Islamic kinds.” He seems to have some fear of lynching by ‘Islamic kinds’ whereas the Chinese are peaceful. So what are we on about: fear of religion or fear of ethnicity? Or just ignorance?

Pauline Hanson tells us she is happy to have Christian Muslims come to Australia. I suppose some OLO posters will share her ignorance.
Posted by FrankGol, Saturday, 31 March 2007 1:55:20 PM
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FrankGol,

I completely disagree with you on Bhutan. There are things that are true whether it is Bhutan, Sydney or Timbuktu. If Bhutanese does not learn from overseas experience then it may be too late. Likewise, since Australia failed to learn from Bhutan from day one, we could be in strife tomorrow.

"Diversity is a fact of Australian life". Sounds like there might had been a problem even before Cpt Cook then.

The word "Diversity" is neutral. It may be good or bad, depending. However my impression is that you think (a) diversity can only be good (b) if we emphasize the common good, and (c) ignore the bad/difference.

Therefore your sentiment is more of a circular argument to me - "Diversity is a fact, therefore it must be good. If it is not good, then ignoring the bad will make it good".

Are you satisfied with just a dose of Chinese culture in Little Bourke St? Is this what makes diversity a success, (just a little bit)?

Well some people are only satisfied with much more. I would not waste my time with Chinese culture anywhere in Australia. In Singapore/Malaysia, you can watch quality performance of Chinese dance troupe (from China) free of charge in shopping centres. Free performance that you can never get in mainland China (because those are export earners).

Why not then have a lot of Chinese diversity even in Australia? Perhaps I would bother to come down to Big Bourke St one day.

Do you happen to know there is a lot of racism, ethnic tension, division in that culturally diversified Malaysia? Perhaps we can talk about that when Australia becomes more like Malaysia?

I know Islam is a religion. May be you're not aware Islam is also the ideology of a common culture, irregardless of ethnicity. Some 'Christians' do think they are Muslims and vice versa because they mistakenly think their Gods are the same. Perhaps you are quite ignorant yourself.
Posted by GZ Tan, Saturday, 31 March 2007 4:49:21 PM
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GZ Tan

I'm struggling to understand what you say we failed to learn from Bhutan and vice versa. Come to think of it, I am struggling to understand most of what you write.

I can't see the connection between alleged problems before Captain Cook and my statement that "Diversity is a fact of Australian life".

Your impression that I think "(a) diversity can only be good (b) if we emphasize the common good, and (c) ignore the bad/difference" is totally wrong. But don't let that stop you telling me what I think.

Having made extensive trips to various parts of China, starting before it became a tourist destination, I know a bit about Chinese culture. I was in Shanghai twice last year. And I have first hand experience of Malaysia, Singapore and (before the political changes Hong Kong). But I'm also perfectly happy to experience a dose of Chinese culture in Little Bourke St or Chinatown in Sydney. Or to go to my son's girl friend's Chinese-Australian family in Footscray. It's all facinating and enriching.

Tell me more about Islam as "the ideology of a common culture, irregardless of ethnicity". Sounds fascinating.
Posted by FrankGol, Saturday, 31 March 2007 5:45:53 PM
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“I'm struggling to understand what you say we failed to learn from Bhutan and vice versa. Come to think of it, I am struggling to understand most of what you write” -so, this is your personal problem well illustrating a distance between reading/writing skills and receptive abilities of addressees, FrankGol.

However, in this forum GZTan is much more lucky than me: a notice arrived that some post of mine (which one?) was not allowed to appear because of being “incomprehensible”.

Hardly I comprehend why The Hicks were paid from public coffins for their voyage to Guantanamo but it does not affect their trip at all.

That is multiculturalism in doing.
Posted by MichaelK., Saturday, 31 March 2007 7:41:34 PM
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FrankGol, diversity in the baneful form envisioned by multiculturalists is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Emphasize difference enough and of course ethnic tribalism will be the end result. It's a classic case of circular reasoning.

Nobody is denying that Australia is a multi-ethnic country. In fact, almost every nation on the planet is multi-ethnic to a certain degree (even a culturally-closed country like Bhutan, my culturally promiscuous dear FrankGol). Yet, multi-ethnic is not the same as multicultural. In most cases, common community underpinned by shared culture eventually overcomes ethnic differences. Only here do we encourage disintegration and division all in the name of celebrating diversity.

I must say that this discussion is becoming nauseatingly trite. At the first sign of dissent, FrankGol is dispatched from Diversity HQ to chastise my alleged "mirages" and "weak history". However, these sniping attacks delivered in the usual self-righteous, supercilious manner do not disguise FrankGol's intellectually mendacity. He still refuses to even acknowledge, let alone concede, the fact that Jieh-Yung Lo's self-declared identity directly confutes FrankGol's denial that multiculturalism encourages allegiance to ethnicity over nationality. One could not ask for a more blatant example of evasiveness on behalf of a multi-culter. It seems FrankGol's propensity to bloviate is surpassed only by his propensity to dodge and duck reality.
Posted by Oligarch, Saturday, 31 March 2007 11:27:58 PM
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FrankGol,

Now you give me the impression we have been confusing each other.

Have you not heard Muslims trumpeting, "Islam is a way of living"? (Seriously, even though it's April Fool day)

I say, Islam started as a hoax by Muhammand (who bluffed people he met an angel that gave him the words of Allah godhead). Mainly through violence initially, the hoax grew, expanded and gained a critical mass.

The way of living as recorded in Koran/Quran forms the basis of a common culture for foolish believers. There are African fools, Asian fools and blonde-hair-blue-eye fools.

While they grow in number & strength, Muslims in western democracy are borrowing tolerance from their hosts, mainly from unwary people who believe in cultural diversity. But believe me Islam does not expound diversity. It is a closed-minded ideology that will not return the tolerance that its followers once borrowed.

Once a Muslim population reaches a critical mass, the process to reverse Multiculturalism will begin - purging of non-Islamic cultures.

Have you seen cultural diversity flourishing in any Islamic state? No, in fact it is ever diminishing.

Multiculturalism is misguided, is a dirty word so long as Islamic culture is an integral part of it. If Multiculturalism is an unwitting casualty of any attempt to slow down Islamisation, then so be it.

I recommend this important site (and may you buy Ali Sina's book about Islam) :

http://www.faithfreedom.org

ps. I was in Shanghai on new year eve. To my dismay, the NY concert at XinTianDi were fenced in with tall timber planks. So was the concert at Nanking Rd. Such exclusion would be unacceptable in Australia. China is only good for the rich.
Posted by GZ Tan, Sunday, 1 April 2007 10:22:32 AM
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<China is only good for the rich.
Posted by GZ Tan, Sunday, 1 April 2007 10:22:32 AM> - may one, please, explain, who is Australia good for?
Posted by MichaelK., Monday, 2 April 2007 4:15:10 AM
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This will be my last post on this thread. My time is valuable; and I'm sick of people failing to read or distorting what I write. What characterises OLO more than ay other forum I know is the habit of constructing false representations and then attacking these with feigned outrage. Multiculturalism is an prime example.

Oligarch, I made a clear distinction between difference and diversity. On Friday I wrote: "I don’t emphasise difference - rather diversity." So your claim: "Emphasize difference enough and of course ethnic tribalism will be the end result. It's a classic case of circular reasoning" is wilful nonsense.

Colourful language ("FrankGol is dispatched from Diversity HQ") and personal insults ("self-righteous, supercilious manner do not disguise FrankGol's intellectually mendacity") are no substitute for reasoned argument. Nor is semi-literacy dressed up in big words or non-words ("FrankGol's propensity to bloviate")

GZ Tan, on Tuesday last, you said: "Multiculturalism is not my topic of interest." Now that you've told us all you know about Islam, perhaps you really meant to say that Multiculturalism is not your topic of expertise?

Nor is popular culture. You had to pay for a concert in Shanghai. "Such exclusion would be unacceptable in Australia," you say. "China is only good for the rich." What's the price of a ticket for The Rolling Stones concert in Melbourne?
Posted by FrankGol, Monday, 2 April 2007 10:21:25 AM
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FrankGol, I suspect your decision to retreat back into your pseudo-intellectual fantasy land has more to do with the fact I questioned your evasiveness.

I asked a relevant question three times in response to your assertion that multiculturalism does not encourage loyalty to ethnicity and old culture over Australian nationality. You claimed that the notion of multiculturalism promoting ethnocentricity at the expense of nationality was merely "fiction" in Banjo's "fevered imagination." I countered with a pertinent quote from Jieh-Yung Lo. The straightfoward question about Jieh-Yung Lo was put to you three times. Each time you found the time and energy to respond with thinly veiled ad hominem attacks, but patently failed to answer the question.

In my humble opinion, such evasiveness when probed is an act of disingenuousness. I can sympathise with the frustration felt when outnumbered in a debate, but you dug your own grave in this case. I suspect your attempt to claim victim status will be met by other posters with some cynicism.

FrankGol said: "Nor is semi-literacy dressed up in big words or non-words ("FrankGol's propensity to bloviate")."

Frank, you do have a tendency to speak at length in a pompous manner. The alleged "semi-literate" phrasing was an attempt on my behalf to label you a conceited windbag in a less affronting manner. Feel free to consult a dictionary in the case of these supposed "non-words".
Posted by Oligarch, Monday, 2 April 2007 4:26:25 PM
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FrankGol,

I think once again you fail to read or distort what I wrote.

I was merely referring to New Year celebration concert of the type that the public should enjoy, free of charge. Not any commercial concert.

I suppose yes, the poor everywhere must feel sorry they cannot afford Rolling Stone concert tickets. But hey, with all that mighty Aussie dollars that you are used to spend in Asian countries, can you imagine what it's like being poor in China?
Posted by GZ Tan, Monday, 2 April 2007 5:29:24 PM
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At times I feel we are going round and round in circles .Some of us get hung up on particular words and are hung up on a particular interpretation of those words.

It is about diversity, not difference. Diversity is derived from variety. Difference is about distinguishing how unlike something is to another. It is about discriminating one thing from another. MC is not about my way of living is better than yours, but is about there are a variety of ways of living.

Diversity is inevitable. There is variety in family cultures. From celebrating birthdays (or not), to parenting, to husband -wife relations, to religion. Any can cause friction and misunderstanding between members of the same family.

We all want personal safety and a future. We all want to be proud of ourselves and able to show and be who we are, it is essential for a healthy self-esteem, which in turn is essential to become successful, not only privately, but as an Australian citizen. This goes for everybody.

What we as Australians need to talk about is, why is it that there are Australians who do not feel part of our society? Why would anybody isolate themselves from the wider community? You miss out on opportunity.

In Australia we made a public acknowledgment of the diversity of her citizens through a multicultural policy. To me, the openmindedness, the idea of acceptance and respect that Multiculturalism implies, you can prove yourself as a person, not your status or where you came from counts, is the public expression of those most Australian of values: egalitarianism and giving someone a ‘fair go’. We are a successful society, because of those underpinning values. We are not Malaysia, or China, or Bhutan, or GB.

To some culture, has become entangled with nationalism and therefore contradictory to good citizenship. A culture does not necessarily have a concurrent nationality attached to it. Ask the Kurds, and till recently the Jews and Armenians for instance. MC is not about other nationalities. It is assumed we are talking Australian nationals.
Posted by yvonne, Monday, 2 April 2007 10:24:35 PM
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Yvonne,

Australia is a mere xenophobic, racist Anglo-backyard of the stacked in a feudal Dark Ages England, where “multiculturalism” is a word used to manipulating the segregated groups of population who hate each other on biological grounds and all together-on religious differences each other.

Frank is right: following this discussion is mere example of a next waste of life in this hopeless place.
Posted by MichaelK., Tuesday, 3 April 2007 11:23:08 AM
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MichaelK I have to strongly disagree with you. I have lived in different countries. Countries with previous Dutch, British and French colonial histories and 'Western' European countries, including Great Britain.

This is definitely not a copy of Great Britain, though there are Australians who think so. That's because they've never lived and worked there. Australia is a haven of tolerance compared; racially, ethnically and class status wise.

Yes, there are xenophobic Australians, but Australians are not especially so. Many of the countries in Asia are far, far more racist than Australia is, so are African countries. Hence the relentless bloodletting on that continent.

We tend to lump Asians, Africans and Europeans together because of some semblance of similar appearance, but that unfortunately does not equate with tolerance and acceptance.

There are other countries that have a multicultural policy, I find that Australia is one of the more successful countries in this regard. I believe because of underpinning uniquely Australian values. Two of which I've mentioned before.

That's why I do not think comparing Australia to other countries has much merit. The USA, also a migrant country, for instance, is a fragmented nation; racism is deeply ingrained. It is very rare for instance to see marriages across cultural and racial lines. In Australia mulit-racial/cultural marriages or partnerships are common and accepted.

When I first came to Australia I didn't know anything of Australia and was fascinated by this group of people and their history. Both the original inhabitants and the newcomers. Especially Australians’ irreverence appealed to me.

That’s one reason why I think Political Correctness has had more impact on Australian ‘culture’ than a policy of respect for other cultures. That and the replacement of typical irreverent Australianisms with supposedly ‘cool’ Americanisms, which has the smell of grovelling to be accepted to me. To grovel is so un-Australian
Posted by yvonne, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 6:56:16 PM
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yvonne said: "We tend to lump Asians, Africans and Europeans together because of some semblance of similar appearance, but that unfortunately does not equate with tolerance and acceptance."

That's an odd comment, especially if you consider Australia's history as a European-derived nation.

Most non-British European migrants were able to integrate almost seamlessly into the wider Australian community within one or two generations. This is because they shared a similar cultural background with their new country. For example, how many ethnic German enclaves do you find in our capital cities? None, despite the fact German is the fourth most common ancestry in Australia.

As Professor Geoffrey Blainey once noted: "We have a dominant, long-established, Anglo-Celtic culture and institutions, with a confetti of other ethnic groups, the largest of which are European and, therefore, not dissimilar to the host culture."

By the way, never mind MichaelK. I've come to the conclusion that he is nothing more than an illiterate crank.
Posted by Oligarch, Thursday, 5 April 2007 9:36:40 AM
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Yvonne, regarding your illusions.

Anglo-racist xenophobic so-called “Aussies”- representatives of a “dominant, long-established, Anglo-Celtic culture and institutions” assume all outside of their tribe as “a confetti of other ethnic groups” with a following outcome highlighted historically already.

Their mix of dark ages feudal arrogance with multiplied upon ages island-style self-developed feeling of own superiority allow no further progress but stagnation and decay as biological specimen, which quite clear to outsiders:

“An Open Letter to the Prime Minister of Australia
Why have signatures been collected for this letter?
In the first three months since the National Strategic Review of Mathematical Sciences Research in Australia was completed, there has been no response from the government.
It was therefore been decided that an open letter would be sent to the Prime Minister. ...

Text of the Open Letter to the Prime Minister of Australia

... The findings of the recent National Strategic Review of Mathematical Sciences Research in Australia, completed in December 2006, are therefore deeply disturbing. ...
The Review found that the shortage of mathematical modellers and statisticians is so severe that it inhibits work of business and industry, such as mining and biotechnology companies and financial institutions, and government agencies including the Australian Antarctic Division and CSIRO. The shortage brings pause to foreign companies' plans for investment in Australia. ...
The three distinguished international reviewers, Professor Jean-Pierre Bourguignon, Dr Brenda Dietrich and Professor Iain Johnstone, found "the nation's tradition and capability to be on a truly perilous path".
Even more disturbing is that, in the short time since the Review, the already seriously depleted base of mathematical sciences in Australian universities is being further eroded with a number of universities currently reducing staff through voluntary or forced redundancies.
We have noted your commitment, quoted in the Review, that "in this ever more competitive global economy, Australia's science, engineering and technology skills need to match the best in the world". Science, engineering and technology skills depend on mathematical sciences.
We, the undersigned, urge the Australian government to take urgent action and immediately address the priority areas identified in the Review.“
Posted by MichaelK., Thursday, 5 April 2007 11:24:31 AM
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MichaelK, perhaps you should consider remedial English classes before you denigrate Australian educational standards.
Posted by Oligarch, Saturday, 14 April 2007 12:45:48 AM
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An Anglo- racist notion that English grammar skills of particular accent-bearers rules the world helps nothing to add even to this discussion where mostly car dealers and UK-imported Australian-based real-estate retirees entertain a professional with their Oligarch-style redneckness, lacking of elementary issue-related expertise.

If one understands context of my postage a little if at all, it is this particular person’s problem.
Posted by MichaelK., Saturday, 14 April 2007 10:26:35 PM
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