"people like Danny Nalliah are harmless loonies". Yup, Reynard is right. Once again Irfan has flown off the scales of reasonable sensitivities into the stratosphere of unhinged logic. Somebody please take Irfan out for a beer for some pub lessons in the difference between the good guys and the bad guys.

"Well it sure makes you wonder
The things that some people will say
They can see black and white
But they don't seem to notice the grey" - Don Henley

Well Irfan, I must say that I agree with your concerns about extreme forms of Christianity and Islam. You would make an excellent atheist/agnostic/deist. Maybe you should give one of them a go!

So, being as that you are concerned about extreme forms of Islam like Wahabism I would be most interested to hear what your views are on the 'St Petersburg Declaration' at the recent 'Secular Islam Summit' in Florida. The Declation is as follows;

'We are secular Muslims, and secular persons of Muslim societies. We are believers, doubters, and unbelievers, brought together by a great struggle, not between the West and Islam, but between the free and the unfree.

We affirm the inviolable freedom of the individual conscience. We believe in the equality of all human persons.

We insist upon the separation of religion from state and the observance of universal human rights.

We find traditions of liberty, rationality, and tolerance in the rich histories of pre-Islamic and Islamic societies. These values do not belong to the West or the East; they are the common moral heritage of humankind.

We see no colonialism, racism, or so-called “Islamaphobia” in submitting Islamic practices to criticism or condemnation when they violate human reason or rights.

We call on the governments of the world to;

reject Sharia law, fatwa courts, clerical rule, and state-sanctioned religion in all their forms; oppose all penalties for blasphemy and apostasy, in accordance with Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human rights;

eliminate practices, such as female circumcision, honor killing, forced veiling, and forced marriage, that further the oppression of women;

protect sexual and gender minorities from persecution and violence;

reform sectarian education that teaches intolerance and bigotry towards non-Muslims;

and foster an open public sphere in which all matters may be discussed without coercion or intimidation.....

Cont....'We demand the release of Islam from its captivity to the totalitarian ambitions of power-hungry men and the rigid strictures of orthodoxy.

We enjoin academics and thinkers everywhere to embark on a fearless examination of the origins and sources of Islam, and to promulgate the ideals of free scientific and spiritual inquiry through cross-cultural translation, publishing, and the mass media.

We say to Muslim believers: there is a noble future for Islam as a personal faith, not a political doctrine;

to Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Baha’is, and all members of non-Muslim faith communities: we stand with you as free and equal citizens;

and to nonbelievers: we defend your unqualified liberty to question and dissent.

Before any of us is a member of the Umma, the Body of Christ, or the Chosen People, we are all members of the community of conscience, the people who must choose for themselves.'

Endorsed by:

Ayaan Hirsi Ali
Magdi Allam
Mithal Al-Alusi
Shaker Al-Nabulsi
Nonie Darwish
Afshin Ellian
Tawfik Hamid
Shahriar Kabir
Hasan Mahmud
Wafa Sultan
Amir Taheri
Ibn Warraq
Manda Zand Ervin
Banafsheh Zand-Bonazzi

http://secularislam.org/blog/post/SI_Blog/21/The-St-Petersburg-Declaration

I would add an extra comment to that Declaration. That is, to affirm the basic human right of any Muslim women to enter into a loving relationship with a non-Muslim man without condemnation or threat. Traditional Islam currently takes the sexist and anti-human step of prohibiting inter-faith marriages if the women happens to be a Muslim.

So, what do you think Irfan? Is that Declaration too liberal for you, or does it not go far enough?

Cripes. This is like that idiotic amusement arcade game where you dong some creature on the head when it pops up.

Any time a 'moderate' Muslim dares to stick his head out, the OLO bigot scrum is here to grind him into the dust.

I think that it's unfortunate that what passes for debate here bears little resemblance to that which is expressed in normal, face to face discourse between actual people.

The usual suspects who always gleefully 'bash' reasonable Muslims like Irfan are at least as responsible for social discord as are the loony imams and sheikhs whom they claim are representative of Islam. Much the same as Christians who support hate-mongers like Nalliah.

Sometimes I think that all public religious expression ought to be banned, on the basis of the social division it obviously fosters. However, I always correct myself because freedom of ideological expression is so integral to the democratic ideals I hold dear.

Such a pity that the religious nutters and racists who infest forums such as this aren't as reasonable..

All extremists and religious fundamentalists are dangerous people. The Exclusive Brethren had molested children, failed to pay their taxes and are well on the way to taking over the NSW Branch of the Liberal Party.

This threatens our democracy, I dislike fanatics of any kind, be they Pagan, Christian or Muslim, or indeed any other brand of lunatic, religious or not. I judge people seperately not blanket statements on any race colour or creed.

Being Catholic, but these days a NPC I once picked up a hitch hiker after 10 minutes of my swearing, he told me he was a priest and was going into town for supplies when his car broke down. I remember thinking to myself, how many Christians must have passed this man and not stopped, religion tends to be hypocritical witch is why I am NPC.

There you go CJ..calling us "bigoted scum" .. ooook... I did read it.. SCRUM :)

WE ARE GOING TO TAKE OVER ! yep.. we Christians are aiming to take the reigns of the political horse in Australia and guide it to a blessed future? Of course, what this means is that we, as members of society, will exercise our competitive democratic rights, (as ALL members of society can) to persue a political agenda which suits our values. "take over" ? hardly.. our agenda does not suit the masses.

JESUS' POLITICAL PLATFORM. (?)

The 'Masses' came after Jesus

-effective mental health care (cast out demons),
-universal free medical treatment (healed the sick),
-improved the weather (calmed storms),
-made major scientific breakthroughs (walked on water, turned water into wine, raised the dead)

so... yeah.. MASSES followed Him.

HOW DID HE RESPOND ? "If anyone would follow me, let him DENY himself (carnal desires) and take up his cross daily and come after me"

Unnnnnfortunately, not many of the masses want to hear about this self denial stuff..they would rather have the sex shop in Canterbury road in the name of 'ethical/moral freedom'

When Danny Naliah speaks of 'pulling down' places of worship of non Christian faiths, he is speaking out of II corinthians 10:4

4The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds.

Irfy.. puh-lease look more closely. We don't bulldoze Mosques or Buddhist temples. Note, 'not the weapons of this world' ?
Naliah is speaking in unmistakable 'Christian' Jargon. You see, after a sermon we don't go out to the Danish Embassy calling for blood and heads LITERALLY.. it's 'another' religion where that happens.

Given Australia's approx 70% JudaoChristian cultural heritage, it is not unreasonable to deliberately support this at a government level.

Given Islams track record of sectarian violence, murder, political assassination, torture, mutilation of prisoners by Islams FOUNDER, I cannot see reason for the government to support it in any way. (they may as well support Pablo Escobar for Colombian Parliament)