Spider, you gave me a huge laugh today. Thanks. That's gotta count as some sort of a mitzvah, even if unintended.

The Bedouin in Israel are all Muslim.

No one forces them to adopt any particular lifestyle. But if anything, the realities and conveniences of modern life; Israel's defense situation, with it's need for secure borders, army training grounds, etc; the pressures of population growth, urbanization, intensified desert agriculture, etc; and the introduction of western concepts of property rights and use; have all worked in exactly the opposite direction than what you describe, encouraging the Bedouin to leave behind their traditional nomadic life, without water, sewage, or power, and to move into developed, permanent villages.

Of course they're "allowed" employment and education, and no, their children are not expected to "live by Jewish values".

"only Jews are allowed to move out to the desert now, nobody else"
What the heck? Where do you come up with this stuff, Spider? You're setting new standards for idiocy.

"Before you lot took control of the media, we knew about Jewish suicide bombers."

Whatever. There have been one or two terrorist attacks by Jews that were virtual "suicide missions". The most prominent was that of Baruch Goldstein, who about thirteen years ago killed 29 people at the Tomb of the Patriarchs in Hebron before he was killed by the crowd he attacked. It's impossible to know whether he expected to die in this attack.

In any case, did you have any trouble finding out about it? Did the so-called Jewish-controlled media cover it up?

Really, Spider, I have to wonder whether you are real or the invention of a Zionist Jewish Israeli trying to make the anti-Zionists look ridiculous. (If the latter, tone it down. "Spider" is so off the wall and over the top, no one is going to believe he's real. And besides, anti-Zionists need no help from us to look bad; they do a good job of that on their own.)

David

'being ruled by sentimentality rather than practicality and long term solutions.'
Bit rich really when coming from a fundamentalist christian who is ruled by the myths of a book many thousands of years old.:-)

I'm ruled by my conscience and the words of Jesus's Sermon on the Mount. That I find gives a great balance to the logic of our great Western Greek Heritage.

You agree with the spoils of war argument then if you are to be consistant then you will meekly sit by and listen as the destroy Israel brigade chant their threats then you'll do and say nothing when they are eventually successful.

Stick to your final solutions. But if I was to suggest you replace the removal of the Palestinians with the removal of The Jews then you'd screeh cries of anti-semitism even though, if you were consistant, you'd probably think it the obvious final solution.

ramir

No amount of words can change the fact of the original allocation...nor can subsequent, events and maths are pure logic...derived from our western Greek Heritage.

Israel has occupied all of the Palestinian allocation and Ehud Barak's proposel rejected by Arafat proposed a series of 'Bantustans' equilivant to 22% of that allocation.
Verifiable facts are louder than jabberish spin.


My point re the Indigenous of Israel was that we Australians have faced the fact we have mistreated our Indigenous and accept their rights to land and decent treatment. Israel hasn't and won't.

The Yom Kippur war was about to expand dramatically when the Soviets threatened to enter on the side of the Arabs...That ramir and nothing else scared the c... out of everyone and resulted in the peace treaties. Hindsight with the benefit of the openess of the former soviet archives is wonderful. But unfortunately the Israeli cheer squad tend to overlook the facts of history on so many occassions... and hence the continuing conflict.

vivy

Your ideas are a piece of pure unmitigated half digested ass manure and have no place in a western debating forum. Try to keep them to youself.

sganot

Danny Lamm according to his biographical note is:

'Dr Danny Lamm has been President of the State Zionist Council of Victoria since 2002.

Author's website: State Zionist Council of Victoria'

Still reckon he isn't an avowed Zionist?

I referenced the source of the information provded. I'll not do it again. The simple fact is we Australians as a population have rejected our past and much of our 'current' treatment of our Indigenous peoples. We are endeavouring change. Israel hasn't and won't.
'...the important, serious issue of the economic and social conditions of Arab Israelis is clearly "ignoratio elenchi", also known as a red herring.'

Oh I agree but you'd also agree then that the following statement by ramir introducing the topic was also a giant red hering.

'It is always amazing to me that White Australians, having stolen a whole continent from the Aborginal people have the ultimate hypocracy to criticize Zionism ...'

Why didn't you jump on the source of the fishiness? Too one eyed?

sganot,

I was watching an interview with a senior member of the Israeli government. How interesting it was to hear him call the sand natives as filth and vermin who must behave like Jews if they want to be accepted.

The land of Zion is Jewish Apartheid. Amazing how everything is good when the Zionists do this.

There are those Jewish people who I have listened to as they make their arguements who I agree with and not one of them a fundamental Zionist.

"The land of Zion is Jewish Apartheid" so true, arguably very similar to that of the period of South African apartheid, where similarly there were its proponents here in Australia claiming that the white South Africans had an inherent right to the land free from self governing black South Africans..
I hold indignation to Lamm's piece which as pointed out is biased and unbalanced. Id invite people such as sganot to go and write about the Palestinian experience and witness the brutality thats occurring there where people live in virtual confinement, with very little or no rights, whom themselves live in fear. A Palestinian doctor Khalid Daahlan observed that
"99.4 percent of children we studied, in camps exposed to constant attack, suffer trauma. 99.2 percent of the study groups homes were bombarded, 97.5 percent were exposed to tear gas, 96.6 percent witnessed shootings, 95.8 percent witnessed bombardment and funerals and almost a quarter saw family members injured or killed and more than a third saw their neighbors killed or injured"..
how many Israeli children have witness the devastation that these children have?

If it were not for the billion dollar Israeli Public Relations machine I'm sure it wouldn't be that difficult to look through the unscrupulous media coverage on the conflict, where Israeli action is almost always met with broad rationalisations, such as a report from the BBC where Israeli F-16 fighters and helicopter gunships took part in an assault on Gaza where the casualties included children from three families and all the BBC reporter could say was that the attack was justified as part of "Israelies war on terror" and ironically you wonder how a young female ambulance driver is driven to strap herself with explosives and commit a devastating act of terror.

KEITH ... *ouch* :)

mate.. if I'm not mistaken, in my 'FINAL SOLUTION' scenario I actually did suggest it should be either 'all Palestinians' or.. 'all Jews' out. I know I said it somewhere.. and I stick by that.
In my view though, the Jews do have more of a claim than the Palestinians, plus, if you see what the Muslims do to Christians, when in majority, like here...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yiu26Mo_UBo

You will possibly appreciate why I support Israel first and foremost.
Don't forget, my 'FINAL SOLUTION' did have an overiding compassionate goal, and it was with the long term best interests of the Arabs that I suggested it.

As you would have observed.. pretty much like clockwork and on time, as soon as the PLO and Hamas came up with an agreement.. BINGO there is violence over the ramp. Now the ramp has been in progress for a longgg time, so it didn't just suddenly appear. So, how do we explain the sudden outbreak of violence around the Mosque ? Ah..I know.. they are all mossad blokes in arab clothes :)
No..I think more accurately, that violence symbolizes the root core of the whole situation. "ITS ABOUT THE MOSQUE -STUPID" as the saying goes. If not the mosque.. Jerusalem (including the Mosque).

Remember my question ? "If the Arabs were offered land of same value and productivity..... but no more claim on Jerusalem... would they accept it" ? aah.. thats the key question and the answer is NO, because Hamas still have their charter intact..and have avoided like a Sars patient any semblance of 'recognizing Israel' in this latest agreement.
Ultimately Keithy..its about Jerusalem and its spiritual significance.