The recent White Feathering (Ribbon) campaign whilst it was about ending violence against women, it was also about bullying men. It employed some emotive manipulative techniques.

If one only studies feminist research, then of course only women are victims of violence, because in fact feminist research does not ask men if they are the victims of domestic violence, feminist research assumes that men are only perpetrators.

When Lenore Weitzman published her findings that men gained from divorce this was accepted as fact, because it matched public perception, even when her research and public perception were wrong and men gaining from divorce.

Christine Stolba wrote in "Lying in a Room of ones own" about Errors of interpretation, Sins of Ommission and Errors of Fact. Whilst examing feminist texts used in women's studies.

More recently Myrna Blythe wrote 'Spin Sister' which is about how the editors of womens magazines sell unhappiness to women.

today the message to the most privileged and wealthy women in history is that the battle hasn't begun, or that they must be constantly on their guard against any perceived loss of rights etc.

Feminists in Canada even put out a proposal that mens groups be monitored and it be made a criminal offence to critize women (feminist groups). Nowhere in the proposal did it consider making it a criminal offence to critize men.

The internet has forever changed the landscape, where it is easier than ever before to check out facts and figures, without relying on the media or waiting for books to be published.

For example living in Australia one can order books which are not imported into this country e.g. 'Heterophobia' "The sexchange Society' etc

Bernard Chapin mentioned in a recent blog that many men who once supported feminism, nolonger support it.

John Gardiner of Kittennews wrote "beware the man loving feminist".

There is a parable about a fox taking a scorpion across a river and the scorpion stings him.

"It has nothing to do with logic," the drowning scorpion sadly replied. "It's just my character."

Divorce Doctor, your post was unhelpful because not only were your assumptions false but you got the facts wrong. Despite your patronising attitude, I have read the Garner books you recommended to me (and lots more). It wasn't Helen who lost me - it was your strange contradictory quotations from her work.

Moreover, you misconstrue or misrepresent "The First Stone". I think you'll find that what got up Helen Garner's nose was that the young women refused to be used as literary fodder by Helen who thought she had some divine right to interview them for her book having already written sympathetically to the respondent, Dr Gregory. She couldn't understand why the young women (not girls) wouldn't submit to her inquisition and why they wouldn't listen to her telling them what really happened at Ormond College.

The issue in the Ormond College case had nix to do with provocative clothing - the allegations against Dr Gregory were of a quite different nature. Are you deliberately distorting the facts or have you not read the book (and the actual transcripts related to the case? And if you rely on "The First Stone" for your understanding of the Ormond case, remember that Helen Garner did not gain access to sources from both sides of the dispute.

Your rant about "the Equal Opportunity Tribunal" (surely you mean the Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission?), and "Howard axing the whole Tribunal, and appointing Pru as Sex/Discrimination Commissioner" is ill-informed and plain weird. As is your rant about "the kangaroo court system in Nazi Germany in late 1930s" and the "Final Solution"

As for the quotation from Hitler, "What good fortune for governments that the people do not think", maybe on that point we may share the concern that some people do not think clearly enough - and maybe don't read well enough - and that is dangerous in a democracy.

Trade old buddy, you just stepped over the line. I have no agenda whatsoever and I thank Spendo for pointing this out. This is a forum for debate and I have never used it to insult, vilify, defame or slander so I do not excuse your unwarranted post.

More than anything however, I take grave exception to being labelled a liar. You may have freedom of speech, but you also have the responsibilities, enshrined in law, that go with that - as do each one of us.

I have had just about everything else taken away from me in this life (so I also certainly have no pretensions) but my honesty is one thing I have clung on to. I may, like most people, at times be in error or mistaken but I have never, never said anything I do not believe to be true. Right now I am so damn angry on so many levels - and you better believe that's the truth!

Hell's teeth, man, get a grip

Trade, Romany does have a point. You went for a personal attack rather than discussing the issues. There is plenty of material out there to support some of your concerns, instead of making a personal attack on Romany provide her with some links to places where feminist organisations are still perpetuating falsehoods and pushing extremes. We've covered the DV and child abuse issues fairly well in a variety of threads but you could talk about some of the other false perceptions that some of feminism's ideas are built on.

You might have a look at http://www.argate.net/~liz/ to see some of what is being said by some feminists today, some good some bad.

R0bert

Simply pointing out the illogical premise that something is of lesser value because its old (the reverse is also illogical), in my not unusually blunt, emotional, pretentious, self righteous, sanctimonious, patronising, condescending, passive/aggressive, verbose, politically incorrect and retarded way.

Ah, self awarness and truth, they're a bitc. ooops, l mean basta.., ok, they just is.

Thanx for understanding.

The nature of lying is that it becomes so ingrained, via neat little smoke screens like ideology, that the liar cannot see their lies. Its a case of believing the hype. Faced with confronting the truth, they sulk, in its myriad forms. The louder the wailing the deeper the exposed lies.

l understand what it is to be mired in lies, l see them all the time and work very hard to challenge my own lies. It sets me off when people do it, seemingly oblivious and almost serene about it. But wot the hey, that's my hangup.

No doubt you realise that arguement/debate ('discussion' if you like) is essentially redundant - a very satisfying waste of time.

Its just projection of egocentric insecurity (subject matter, modus and stylistic affectations notwithstanding). On that score l agree with the Bhuddists.

The world of internet forum 'discussion' is a wounderful delusion. We can pretend to be 'discussing' when in fact we are argueing with ourselves, at one another's expense.

This l accept as tacitly SELF EVIDENT.

Compounding the illusion of arguement with the deep seated delusions of ideology is just too potent a sideshow to pass up.

As far as ideologies go, feminism is built upon, littered with and proceeds on the basis of some fantastically irrational, deluded and retarded notions, adding another layer of non-sense. Plus yet another layer of the 'nature of man/woman' stereotypical dribble that makes the fun positively addictive. Layer upon layer upon layer. Almost as good as apple struddle.

For the moment, some of roms thinking aloud is intruding upon a weak willed aspect of my own egocentric insecurity, so, her WORDS be a useful muse... for projecting. lm sure you understand.

To Spendo and similarly championing chorts, you havent said anything specific, in any of your posts, that has grabbed me as a useful device for starting a substantive arguement with myself. But if you wanna piggy back off others, kewl, knock yourself out.

l am more than happy for you to argue with yourself at my expense. Attributing your opinion by misrepresenting mine and compounding the facade by hiding behind question marks... oddly such banality l find quite entertaining. It is a net forum after all. Good stuff, do continue.

Its all good. l do enjoy regularly escaping mundane truths and taking the blue pill, or maybe its the red one (l can never remember).

So, whats the point, as many ask incessantly. Simple. The point to this dynamic is that... there is no point.

Its a proxy for... living.

lm not gonna explain anymore of this stuff to ya, that would take all the fun out of it.

:-)

ps. lm a comfortably irredemable smart arse (hmmm, lies ?) and beyond things like 1+1=2, you'll never be able to convince me of anything.