http://www.xenos.org/classes/chronc.htm

That might help on Jesus birth chronology.

My understanding is that the early church actually discouraged the celebration of Christmas, and no Christian should be upset by Helen's writings here.

The important festival for Christians isn't really Christmas at all, it is what we know as Easter, mainly because that is the convenient name for it.

Unfortunately Easter is another one of those pagan festivals co-opted by Christians to fit in with the calendar. It is particularly unfortunate that we do not have a better name for the time to celebrate the sacrifice and resurrection of Christ the Saviour than a weekend named after a pagan fertility 'goddess'.

(It also happens, of course, that the pagan festival for Oestre was at the same time of year as the Hebrew Passover, because that is when Christ was Crucified.)

After all, Easter is named after the goddess Oestre, also the root of the word oestrogen, hence the symbols of fertility, eggs and bunnies. The strange thing is that the rabbit was only incorporated into Easter because Oestre's real animal symbol, the hare, was also associated with the witches' familiar and celebrating witchcraft at the same time as fertility was a bit much for the organisers of the time.

So Helen, anyone who is offended by your words simply cannot see past the earthy nature of our existence. Yes, it is possible to celebrate the festivals of Christmas and 'Easter' in Christian ways, so long as we don't get tied up in the pagan messages and remember the central nature of what we are trying to celebrate.

For those who want to be pagans and celebrate the winter solstice (in the Southern hemisphere - blink - ) or a fertility festival during the onset of the winter months - then that is okay with me. They just should remember what they are actually celebrating by their actions.

Helen, thank you for the history lesson.

Thanks very much Hamlet - you've taken my piece in the right spirit.

Well done Doc Holliday !? If you have no answer to the question or statement attack and denigrate the writer and no doubt it makes a person like you feel so righteous eh? Your guts is exceeded only by your decency and look you sucked 'Grey' in WELL DONE!
The writer, no matter about her background, is spot on - christmas is totally,completely and utterly PAGAN as is easter and other so-called christian holy?days. There is 'The Way' that taught by Christ and the Gospel writers and there's churchianity with its bells and smells with pretty dresses and funny hats for the priests and primates [apes?] etc. Regards, numbat

Thanks for that, Helen. Good piece that puts Christmas into perspective.

As for that person who had to bring up the past, well, I guess at least you're remembered for something, Helen.

I remember reading your book years ago, and I remember the controversy. Everyone has an opinion about it I guess, but moving on is a good thing. Seems to me that you've done that, Helen, but some of the reading public haven't.

Let it go, and respond to the article as it appears

So much bitterness, wormwood and gall over an entertaining study of an event that so many take for granted.

Gratuitous ad hominem from Doc Holliday. Interesting alias, Doc. Your namesake was a callous murderer who was shacked up with a drunken prostitute, which probably has about as much relevance to you as your little piece of spite towards Helen.

Probably.

Sells then takes us down his usual blind alley. "Let us not talk about Christmas as being the celebration of Jesus’ birthday", as if millions of children out there would have the slightest interest in a "theologically loaded legend" if it didn't have some kind of direct meaning for them. Lighten up, Sells, no-one is forcing you to celebrate the birth of Christ.

Grey - ah, where would we be without your permanent grumpiness - tries to act superior.

>>Kissing under mistletoe was derived from Norse, not Roman myth<<

True, there is the story of Balder brought back to life by Frigga's tears, and her promise to kiss anyone passes under it. But the use of mistletoe as part of a kissing ritual comes to us from the Greeks, via the Romans - via Saturnalia, just as Helen tells us.

As for the actual day - Grey, which calendar were they using in the fourth century?

Omitted from your ramblings was this tidbit:

"French tradition explains why mistletoe is poisonous. It was the tree that was used to make Christ's Cross, and so was cursed. Denied a place to live and grow on Earth, it became a parasite. In Brittany, it is known as Herbe de la Croix for this reason..." (h2g2 2002)