The National Forum   Donate   Your Account   On Line Opinion   Forum   Blogs   Polling   About   
The Forum - On Line Opinion's article discussion area



Syndicate
RSS/XML


RSS 2.0

Main Articles General

Sign In      Register

The Forum > Article Comments > So this is Christmas … > Comments

So this is Christmas … : Comments

By Helen Dale, published 3/1/2007

Christmas is a venerable pagan festival, on a sort of permanent loan from Ancient Rome. Best Blogs 2006.

  1. Pages:
  2. Page 1
  3. 2
  4. 3
  5. 4
  6. ...
  7. 8
  8. 9
  9. 10
  10. All
The Yule Tree...

Once every nine years, the Teutons/Germans would adorn the tree with the bodies of sacrificed slaves and animals. Today the decoration of the xmas tree is a little more symbolic but has its origins in that tradition.

I recall that the Roman 'Sun' God "Sol Evictus" was also involved in the solstice festival.
Posted by Narcissist, Wednesday, 3 January 2007 9:09:51 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
In the interests of keeping readers of Online Opinion informed as to the background, vested interests and credibility of its contributors, in respect of Helen “Dale” I can do not better than refer readers to an article that appeared in The Age newspaper, appropriately enough, last April Fool’s Day:

Unmasked novelist snaps
The Age, April 1, 2006

Helen Dale, aka Demidenko, says law is much more satisfying than literature, reports Simon Caterson.

THE woman who caused the biggest storm in Australian literary history, Helen Dale, nee Darville, aka Demidenko, has broken her silence to justify her role in the affair and settle a few scores.

It has been more than a decade since Australia's most notorious publishing hoax was revealed, but Helen Dale (her new name) has a promising new career in Brisbane's legal world. In 1995, Dale's novel The Hand That Signed the Paper was revealed as a hoax after the book won Australia's most prestigious awards for fiction and attracted lavish praise from literary figures.

Dale was found to have fabricated her Ukrainian authorial identity, which included making appearances in what appeared to be national costume. She was accused of anti-Semitism and plagiarism.

An article by Dale has just been published in The Skeptic, the journal of the Australian Skeptics Inc, an organisation that "investigates the paranormal and pseudo-science from a responsible scientific viewpoint". In "The Hand Behind The Hand Behind", Dale describes her dysfunctional upbringing as a dyslexic child whose father was a con man. She complains that she was denied a fair go by the literary establishment, and says she has abandoned writing to pursue a more satisfying legal career.

The full article is most enlightening and can be found at: http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/unmasked-novelist-snaps/2006/03/31/1143441339451.html

Regards
Doc.
Posted by Doc Holliday, Wednesday, 3 January 2007 9:27:56 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
This article falls into the trap of historicism. That is, it is an attempt to debunk a cultural phenomenon by exposing its historical roots. One is left with the conclusion that such and such is “just” the outworking of certain historical practices or events. You can do this with all and sundry and expose marriage as “just” the attempt to order society or protect property etc. You can do it with Gallipoli and expose it as “just” a bunch of military mistakes made by the hated British generals.

While this may be interesting, and I have no doubt about the veracity of the historical descriptions, it is often the case that cultural phenomenon have acquired a much more solid basis in society than the scorn heaped on them by historicism. I would suggest that Christmas is one such example. After all, it is Christ’s Mass that is celebrated. Sure, many pagan festivals were taken over by Christmas but that is not to deny the place it has assumed in the liturgy of the Church. It is in the church’s calendar that the importance of the festival is fully recognised and this is not effected by the obviously pagan goings on in our society.

Of course Matthew and Luke traced out stories to fill in the background of Jesus. These stories are not historical in the empirical sense but neither are they myth but rather theologically loaded legend without which the Christian story would be impoverished.

Let us not talk about Christmas as being the celebration of Jesus’ birthday, that is a trivialization of what it is really about; the coming of the Saviour of the world.

In short this article is too slick. While it might give support to the persecutors of Christianity, its reductive historicism is a danger to all culture.
Posted by Sells, Wednesday, 3 January 2007 9:48:19 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
At our place we've celebrated Saturnalia rather than 'Christmas' for years. More fun and less bulldust, in our experience.

On the subject of bulldust, Sells should be congratulated for his inspired "theologically loaded legend". Such weaselly words so early in the year!
Posted by CJ Morgan, Wednesday, 3 January 2007 10:33:43 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
So this is wrong....

Thanks for the background Doc Holliday, it does put "helen's" article in context.

For instance, in her talk about Matthew, Luke, Herod and Quirinius, she fails to mention that archaeology confirms that Quirinius (Probably another person with the same name) was a proconsul of Syria and Cilicia from 11bc until the death of Herod.

That Helen says that early christian's thus 'sensibly' left the date of birth of Jesus alone is therefore somewhat, well, dumb. It is helen that should have sensibly left things alone, as archaeology has shown that her own out dated statement is wrong.

It doesn't just stop there either. The birth of Christ was celebrated by Christians in Alexandria about 200 AD, well before Constantine made it the official religion in 325 AD. The celebration of the birth of Jesus on the 25th of december (it was earlier used to commemorate the birth of other early Christian leaders) is first recorded around 380 AD, well after Constantine made it the official religion in 325AD. (It was recorded as the birth of Christ, without celebration around 350AD)

Most scholars also put Saturnalia as a 7 day feast (growing from being originally a 1 day celebration), not a 12 day feast.

Kissing under mistletoe was derived from Norse, not Roman myth.

Helen is obviously overextending herself in her efforts to reach the Saturnalia/christmas link. As Sells said, the whole article is merely using the genetic fallacy.
Posted by Grey, Wednesday, 3 January 2007 10:59:57 AM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Looks like I've manage to irritate some Christians - well, that wasn't the idea.

I have absolutely no problem with people celebrating Christmas, or Saturnalia, or some other variation of same, or not bothering at all (as the JWs do). Ultimately, it's up to the individuals concerned. I'm not trying to be some sort of anti-Christmas grinch. I wrote a light-hearted piece on (some of) the origins of Christmas. I also wanted to try my hand at some Latin translation, which I haven't done for a while (for some reason OLO has dropped off the translation credits, which were on the article when it was published over at Catallaxy).

And for those far more grinch-like characters who are interested in Mr Caterson's burblings (I've since met him - he's a fairly bog standard literati type, and probably doesn't get out enough), you may be interested in the article he was riffing on, which ran in Quadrant and is available here:

http://alsblog.wordpress.com/2006/08/27/my-life-as-a-young-australian-novelist-quadrant-may-2006/

You may also be interested in dropping by Catallaxy, Australia's leading right-leaning group blog:

http://catallaxyfiles.com/

Cheers!
Posted by skepticlawyer, Wednesday, 3 January 2007 11:20:19 AM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
  1. Pages:
  2. Page 1
  3. 2
  4. 3
  5. 4
  6. ...
  7. 8
  8. 9
  9. 10
  10. All

About Us :: Search :: Discuss :: Feedback :: Legals :: Privacy