Carsten I was not promoting the idea that one state would have a lower homicide rate simply because of the historic values of its founding fathers, quite the opposite.

I made the point to illustrate that no one single factor, such as presence or absence of a death penalty, can be reasonably tested to be seen as a significant factor.

Your observation to Japan and where you presume “that cultural influences outweigh the penalty.” Would confirm, again, what I said.

Posted by Col Rouge, Friday, 5 January 2007 9:44:52 AM

I generally agreed with you. However, in the case of the US - you have a single country with a single history. Only, different states have different laws. It is (nearly) as close to an absence of external factors as you are going to get. And the (statistically sparse) evidence suggests that capital punishment does not deter homicide - but may in fact increase its likelihood

"However, in the case of the US - you have a single country with a single history. Only, different states have different laws. It is (nearly) as close to an absence of external factors as you are going to get."

What you overlook, is that the US is made up of lots of different
cultures, living in various groups and if you travel there, its as
plain as night and day. The South has large latino and black
communities, whereas Maine and Vermont hardly have any. Don't compare
apples and oranges.

If you want to understand murder rates, as Col pointed out, have
a look at the gun culture and where guns are easily available.
In some US States they can be bought at Walmart, others have
restrictions etc. Compare countries with free gun laws and those
that have limits. Then your murder rate tends to make some sense.

Perhaps best to scratch your butt a bit and think about this one
a bit more perhaps ? :)

Carsten “in the case of the US - you have a single country with a single history.”

Hardly, continental USA has a history as fragmented as Europe.

A single history? Ruptured by the direct confrontation of Civil war, the industrialised North versus the agrarian South.

A single history which saw federal troops sent in to enforce federal laws in a recalcitrant South as late as the 1960s.

Regarding “It is (nearly) as close to an absence of external factors”

Differences in internal factors are massive, including State historic political and legislative bias, the old North / South thing (noting from my experience of living in Texas, most Americans consider California and its antics as if it were some other universe, not just another state and Texans who just hang on to the status of Lone Star State, completely indifferent to anything north of the Red River).

As for “And the (statistically sparse) evidence suggests that capital punishment does not deter homicide - but may in fact increase its likelihood”

Wrong! (unless you are claiming a null hypothesis proves anything)
No statistical evidence to show that capital punishment encourages homicide.
No statistical evidence to show that abolition of capital punishment reduces homicides.

Perhaps best to scratch your butt a bit and think about this one
a bit more perhaps ? :)
Posted by Yabby, Friday, 5 January 2007 7:38:39 PM

I am not talking about the differences between Massachusetts and Texas here.

The homicide rate in North Dakota, which does not have the death penalty, was lower than the homicide rate in South Dakota, which does have it, according to F.B.I. statistics for 1998. Massachusetts, which abolished capital punishment in 1984, has a lower rate than Connecticut, which has six people on death row; the homicide rate in West Virginia is 30 percent below that of Virginia, which has one of the highest execution rates in the country.

I'm thinking......

I've put my case up. Now its time for someone to post how capital punishment IS a deterrent.

(and I don't want to get into how its more expensive to execute someone than improson them for life)

re:

" … continental USA has a history as fragmented as Europe."

That's grossly misleading, given the short history of the US republic.

Fragmentation in Europe is evident in the presence of not just different regional accents and dialects, ( eg "Southern" vs "Northern) but also distinct language families related by common grammar elements: "Italic" languages such as Italian, French, Portuguese and Spanish. Germanic languages such as German, Dutch, English and Scandinavian tongues; Slavonic, Celtic and Baltic language groups; and others as well.

Behind each of these languages is thousands of years of cultural differentiation, tribal and state fragmentation, and conflict. If North American indigenous cultures had maintained their hegemonies, maybe the idea of America being as fragmented as Europe could be argued. My guess is that English is now spoken by most Native Americans.

The US is governed by English-speakers, with English the universal language of public process.

All rather beside the point. We're here to philosophise about whether President Hussein ought to have been hanged, and whether the world is now a better place because of that.

The next hypothetical for me is what to do about President GW Bush, who has also acted illegally.

Have a look at http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/16230
for the full text of US Congressional Representative McKinney's floor statement on the impeachment of George W. Bush:

By Cynthia McKinney, December 8, 2006
“Mr. Speaker:
“I come before this body today as a proud American and as a servant of the American people, sworn to uphold the Constitution of the United States.

“Throughout my tenure, I’ve always tried to speak the truth. It’s that commitment that brings me here today.

“We have a President who has misgoverned and a Congress that has refused to hold him accountable. It is a grave situation and I believe the stakes for our country are high.

(snip)
“Mr. Speaker:

“Under the standards set by the United States Constitution, President Bush—along with Vice President Cheney, and Secretary of State Rice—should be subject to the process of impeachment, and I have filed H. Res. _ in the House of Representatives.”

Col Rouge, death penalty for second offence drug dealers? give me a break, I say release all political prisoners, aka drug dealers, today! And lock you up

Sir Vivor, Rep. McKinney is one of the few inspirational members of the US congress, that woman has got guts, shame about the rest of the spineless, useless democrats, bipartisanship my ass, if the dems. dont move to impeach Bush and Cheney they are nothing but a waste of space, and taxpayers money.