Peter and Keith,

Some excellent thoughts there.

The calibration of the justice system for social justice will have to destroy the the myth that it operates without interferrence of by political forces.

All through this issue political forces have played a role in how the law was administered and seen to be administered.

While the Beattie government proclaimed for a separation of powers it became incredibily apparent that the legal and thus the legal system was the governments own surrogate child born out of an incestuious relationships between the law and government for over 2 century.

Justice cannot be delivered if the foundations on which the law is built are fundamentally immoral and flawed.

For example, this proclaimation from a 'settler' back in 1800's in Qld.

______

"It was necessary to make severe example of the leaders of the tribe and about a dozen of whom were taken in the open country and shot.

They were complete savages and neverr wore any clothes and were so much alike that no evidence could ever be produced to enable them to be tried by our laws.

These men were allowed to run and they were shot at about a thirty yard distance".

Queensland settler George Serocold.

___

For Indigenous people the basis for this 'sentiment' has not changed one iota. The law does not apply equally - when equal does not mean the same outcome at both a mico and macro level.

For many this disequalibrium does not exist simply because they think the law is a flat egalitarian procedure of application.
It never was.

Hamlet,
Some excellent posts.
Well argued,well documented.

"You’re a...voice of reason amid the clamor of (some other posters) political inspired nonsense. Well done"

Hamlet, perhaps you assume a system of law does NOT exist in Aboriginal communities. Citing Hobes implies this.

Its as though many think the only moral community, the only legal community, the only ethical community that is correct is the one that was imported here. We survived despite its incursions, interuptions and its flaws.

Rainier

Yes there was law, but this law has not survived the impact of contact with industrialisation and internationalisation, not to mention that law enabled old men to rape young girls in the name of them being 'traditional' wives. There may have been law in Aboriginal communities, but not much 'equality' before it.

Would the people of Palm Island really consent to the reintroduction of traditional law, with all its limitations, and the privileging of some members of the community over others, particularly when this would require the virtual insulation and isolation of the island from all those outside influences, such as alcohol, tobacco, drugs and the like? Or do they only say that they want traditional law?

Recently I caught an interview on Radio National interview with a black African ophthalmologist who was visiting Arnhem Land and who was horrified by what he saw. It is worthwhile listening at:

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/latenightlive/stories/2006/1812337.htm

The major point is that that Aboriginal communities don’t aspire to anything more than what they have (or not have), and that black African families will do everything that they can to have their children educated to as high a level as possible, sending them to boarding schools and universities. The money that these families could spend on alcohol and tobacco is instead spent on education.

He tells that tribal leaders go out and get their Masters in Business Administration, or other degrees and diplomas, and then come back to their villages. This is not uncommon, aspirations are higher, and he questions why Aboriginal communities cannot aspire for more for their communities, after all, Abstudy and other programs have been in place for decades.

Instead, Aboriginal kids cannot see any way away from places like Palm Island, through education. (my comment - perhaps they are taught that 'culture' is more important than 'future'?)

This guy can say it – after all, he is black himself.

Or as a whitie am I not allowed to quote him?

Very good point Hamlet!

For far to long Rainier and his cohort have been playing the victim card and there comes a time when it is the future and not the past that is important.

There are three things that will improve the situation for our children no mater where they live and that is education, education and education. And there are NO legitimate excuses for any parent who does not make that the focus of their life.

Iain and Hamlet

Firstly tell me exactly what education has to do with the death of that man at the hands of a policeman in that police cell?

You are using transference to ignore or excuse the behaviour of a clearly racist policeman.

Sure Rainier is proud of his heritage just as we are of ours. But he doesn't harp on about the inequalities and shortcomings in our system that debase our system so as to put our culture down. He does point to inequalities that affect adversely his people in conflicting with traditional culture practises. That's fair. He speaks of problems minorities face which are clearly caused by the dominamnce of the dominant culture. That's fair.

What you guys are doing is unfair and a lot less than generous. With your South African mate, did he point out to you how his race were now the dominant culture and the European based one is now a minority? Did you ask him about the breakdown of law and order in South Africa? No? Oh then you've selectively picked out only the best to highlight a problem in isolated Indigenous communities in Australia. Is that fair? No of course not.
And of course you were able to tell your mate the number of Indigenous people in Australian Universities has risen sharply in the last 30 odd years ... weren't you? No of course you didn't probably because that very positive statistic conflicts with your negative perceptions and attitudes...or you are simply ignorant of the fact. If the former then you have a problem and if the latter you should not discuss matters on which you are so unimformed. Either way you are both out of your depth and really owe Rainier who is imformedd an apology.

Keith Kennelly