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The Forum > Article Comments > Loyalty may hurt sometimes, but not as much as betrayal > Comments

Loyalty may hurt sometimes, but not as much as betrayal : Comments

By Mirko Bagaric, published 15/12/2006

How Downer nailed the response to Iraq - it’s (nearly) all about loyalty, stupid.

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Narcissist

To educate Mirko further about the difference between naive loyalty and the AUS alliance here's more on US-Australian cooperation in 1999 INTERFET http://www.etan.org/et2000a/january/22-31/31howcos.htm :

"In his bunker at Darwin's RAAF base, US Brigadier General John Castellaw told the Herald that US involvement in the Timor crisis began early in 1999, long before Interfet went in: "We had been involved in contingency planning with the Australians for some time prior to the event."

The US general attached to Interfet arrived in Darwin well before September 20 and flew into East Timor "on D-Day" with General Cosgrove. "I would say we've been here since the beginning, and we're still here," he said.

While US ground forces were limited, the aim was to provide "a force multiplier", the general explained. This included logistical support for the heavy lifting of troops and equipment and bolstering intelligence collection.

As he put it: "We have intelligence capabilities, technical elements, that are unique and that add an element that is hard to obtain."

EP3 intelligence aircraft gathered collected signals off the Timor coast while US warships with intelligence capability and military back-up anchored offshore. [there's much more precise overt material on those sigint aspects - but I won't reproduce that in Australia... :) ]

Two weeks after Interfet arrived, the US moved one of its most powerful warships into Dili Harbour. The 40,000-tonne assault vessel Belleau Wood served the practical purpose of providing heavy lift helicopters for Interfet troops, but it was also, according to General Castellaw, a demonstration of American resolve in the crisis. "We meant for it to send a signal."

The Belleau Wood arrived just four days after the US Defence Secretary, Mr William Cohen, met General Wiranto, then still defence minister and military commander, in Jakarta.

Mr Cohen put immense pressure on General Wiranto and the TNI, warning that international economic aid and any resumption of military aid would depend on Jakarta reining in the militia.

Pete
Posted by plantagenet, Friday, 15 December 2006 1:44:07 PM
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Most of you are missing the point.

The mateship speech was nothing more than a convenient out for Downer who did not want to publically ridicule the US, yet did not want to spruik them either.

Hes betting on both red and black here. If he appears to support the US and downplay the problems, he knows he will further divide himself from the growing sector of people unhappy with the war. If he has a negative comment on the US it may damage relations and create a wedge with them.

It was a very succinct and clever piece of politics. Well done Downer, perfect answer.
Posted by Realist, Friday, 15 December 2006 3:38:23 PM
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I don't get this writer. Loyalty? If anything, we should be "loyal" to the UK, not the USA. And loyalty on the international stage means jack s**t when you are subject to the whim of the more powerful partner. This Bagrick writer was an ass to even bring it up.

The complexity of the situation for Australia, comes down to this: The symbolism of Australian involvement in the minds of the enemy/terrorists exceeds our contribution by many times. We have an insignificant impact on the war, yet we have distinguished ourselves as a target for terrorism and sewn mistrust in our region with our close partnership with the USA. The icing is that it has been a needless wasted expense.
Posted by Steel, Friday, 15 December 2006 4:40:26 PM
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Is it loyalty to countries above all else or loyalty to democracy that includes all democratic countries whether we are in constant agreement in every day political and business machinations. There are 243 entities considered to be countries. 202 of these are considered sovereign states. Of the 243, 192 are member states of the U.N.
Prior to WWII there were 6 countries considered to be democracies. post WWII, 26. after the fall of communism, 55. Since Iraq (2004) the number of democratic countries has grown to 66. If you look on a map of the world the largest portion by land mass is represented by democratic governments.
http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/democrat.html
The following link grades each democracy.
http://www.economist.com/media/pdf/DEMOCRACY_TABLE_2007_v3.pdf
President G.W. Bush at his 2nd term inauguration stated that under his leadership advancing democracy would be the driving force behind American foreign policy.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/inaugural/
"We have seen our vulnerability - and we have seen its deepest source. For as long as whole regions of the world simmer in resentment and tyranny - prone to ideologies that feed hatred and excuse murder - violence will gather, and multiply in destructive power, and cross the most defended borders, and raise a mortal threat. There is only one force of history that can break the reign of hatred and resentment, and expose the pretensions of tyrants, and reward the hopes of the decent and tolerant, and that is the force of human freedom.
We are led, by events and common sense, to one conclusion: The survival of liberty in our land increasingly depends on the success of liberty in other lands. The best hope for peace in our world is the expansion of freedom in all the world."
Posted by aqvarivs, Friday, 15 December 2006 9:20:25 PM
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So the USA has now decided that it wants to support the spread of democracy?

It's a shame they don't think that way when they actively participated in the overthrow of several democratically elected governments in Chile, Nicaragua and so on.

It's also a bit late considering their practice of installing and supporting so many of the world's worst dictators over the last 50 years.

Meanwhile their infamous Patriot Act and the subsequent erosion of individual freedoms is a significant move away from their own democratic values.

Let's see how far our loyalty goes if another war front is opened up in Iran or North Korea.
Posted by wobbles, Saturday, 16 December 2006 1:30:57 AM
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When my friend is committing a crime, I need not be loyal.

Quite the opposite! I should try to stir him from his resolve. Joining him in the crime I become guilty, too.

All is relative.
Posted by Enrico, Saturday, 16 December 2006 8:04:39 AM
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