It’s good that the “Indian-Australian” couple went ahead with their wedding despite the idiocy and discriminatory attitude of the parents. When most parents will stand by their children no matter what they do, rejecting children because they wish to enter into marriage with someone not of their own race, religion, caste or colour is disgusting.

This incident highlights the nonsense of saying that mainstream Australians are un-accepting of different cultures, when these creeps (the parents) reject their own children on cultural grounds!

It’s all very well for the author to explain to us “why” immigrants refuse to fit in with the host culture. The fact remains that they are condemning their children to the same isolation that their bigotry and culture has condemned them. People who suppress children when they are unable to make decisions for themselves are bastards, no matter what their culture.

A pleasure to read and ponder, but the article is a bit of a truism with abstract nouns like "cultural shield" and "moral purity" - let people so experienced with the social circles of such religious communities become pragmatic and constructive.

But how to integrate our morals without sounding cheesy?

I am all for the respecting of other cultures and wishes, be that conservative or liberal. What erks me, and gets my blood boiling is when these cultural beliefs tramp over the basic human rights each of us have. Culture and religion have taught us to live in a civilized manner as humans, and should be praised in that manner. However, when they are used in such a way as mentioned in the article, it is not culture/religion, it is basic human malice, and should not be guised as "culture" beliefs.

I wonder if Muslims will be able to get lighter sentences for rape because along with another minority group in Australia it is part of their 'culture' to see their young women as fair game. Mind you at the rate we murder our unborn as part of our 'culture' its a bit hard to point the finger.

Tanveer,

You say: "For Muslims, honour, shame, and the obsession with saving face are paradigms at the core of their identities"

If this is so, why do they not protest against those 'immoderate' Muslims they claim to be giving them a bad name lately? Indeed, why do they appologise for everything they do?

Or is it not possible for them to be shamed in the face of nonbelievers?

Whilst this does not imply that moderate Muslims agree with these extremists, it certainly points to a defensiveness implicit of a general "herd instinct", i.e. some form of xeno-fear, like racism, for why else would one tend always to feel that their ethnic or religious identity in general, i.e. their 'tribal' group in general, is under attack when only a sub-group is, indeed, the very sub-group these moderates claim to be giving them a bad name in the press?

The media can't be blamed for your bad press, who would only jump at the opportunity to flood the media with the views of any moderate protest group who was attempting to distance themselves from the radicals.

An excellent article, thank you Tanveer. Australia has a highly individualist culture, whereas many Islamic migrants come from collectivist cultures. Have a look here for a ranking http://www.clearlycultural.com/geert-hofstede-cultural-dimensions/individualism/ which shows Australia as the 2nd most individualistic culture in the world (guess who came first?). Geert Hofstede's work identifies 5 dimensions for social interaction. You might not agree, but this is a very thought-provoking analysis.

It seems that Islamic migrants (and some of the posters in this forum) are suffering from culture shock. On almost every social measure, Australia is diametrically opposite their home countries. Add in lack of English, limited education and religious differences and you will see some extent of the problem.

There is also the fact that Australia is a guilt culture, where many of these people come from a shame culture http://www.doceo.co.uk/background/shame_guilt.htm

Hi Tnaveer,

Veil ... A Fridge to keep the meat

..

Woman compared to a kilo of meat

If you take a kilo of meat, and you don't put it in the fridge or in the pot or in the kitchen but you leave it on a plate in the backyard, and then you have a fight with the neighbour because his cats eat the meat, you're crazy. Isn't this true?

"If you take uncovered meat and put it on the street, on the pavement, in a garden, in a park or in the backyard, without a cover and the cats eat it, is it the fault of the cat or the uncovered meat? The uncovered meat is the problem.

"If the meat was covered, the cats wouldn't roam around it. If the meat is inside the fridge, they won't get it.

"If the meat was in the fridge and it (the cat) smelled it, it can bang its head as much as it wants, but it's no use.

"If the woman is in her boudoir, in her house and if she's wearing the veil and if she shows modesty, disasters don't happen.

So, women are meat and "WE" (males) have to keep them in Fridges. Fridges refer to Hijabs/Jijabs/Kababs etc..

Tanveer, do you agree?

'They are here to further their children's education in order to give them a better chance in life as well as send money back home to help their extended families. Their purposes are economic and educational.'

Perhaps if their cultures were not so obsessed with saving face and shame and focused on more productive things then their home countries wouldn't be such third world toilets and they wouldn't feel compelled to raise their kids in such decadent lands such as ours.

I've worked with these lunatics for years, they would argue for friggin ages over a six dollar ticket in order to save face, even if it meant getting a hefty fine in the process. All that mattered was that they saved face in front of the inbreds that made up their extended famlilies. They are reflections of the culture of their home countries.

Just the veil? Their whole religion...sorry I meant CULT has to be abolished in Australia. Nothing less is good enough.

The Sheik as he left the Mosque today in Sydney commented he would remain in power until the White House was erased. He does not see his rival as a religious leader like the Pope or the Arch Bishop of Sydney, but as the President of the USA a leader of a rival political power.

These people are not teaching personal development and moral qualities of purity. These people are being taught by the Sheik an agenda of subversion of Western Culture and values. They are political animals who want to destroy Western Culture and bring about primitive Eastern Culture on every Nation on Earth. They are about the controll of people, and not about empowering people in their personal life. They teach our freedoms and personal choices are the destruction of civilisation.

Lakemba Mosque is the seat of a political movement, not the training centre for betterment of one's personal life. They teach our system of Government is corrupt because it allows diversity of personal belief and religion.

LET US REMOVE THE VEIL FROM OUR EYES.

It is interesting that it took the efforts of a journalist from the Australian Newspaper to uncover this poor excuse for humanity,Sheik Halili.What were ASIO and our Federal Police doing about exposing this creep when he is doing more damage than any explosion?

You get the feeling that our Govts don't want to know about a problem in which they were instrumental in creating.It seems to be all in the too hard basket.Be assured that there are are many more like him.You only have to walk the streets of some Sydney suburbs only to be spat at or experience some lurid remark.

We have an appeasing mentality of not offending the Muslims for fear that they might become violent and upset our comfort zones.Appeasement means submission,and the religious facists will win,if we don't have the courage and will to take them to task.

Johnj.
A trillions thanks. But for your considered and thoughtful note, NOT ONE post to this thread would have directly adressed the issues Tanveer Ahmed was raising.
As one old enough to remember the last few waves of immigration to Australia, I'd have to say that even the British isles migrants of the fifties and sixties had trouble fitting in here. Heaps of them having difficulty fitting in turned around and headed back "home", with the epiteth "whingeing pom" whistling venomously past their ears.
People from older, more agrarian-based "traditional" cultures from Greece , the Balkans, Italy and so forth, often exhibited even stronger responses to the "culture shock" of being in a western consumerist culture after leaving war-torn Europe.
Thinking on it, I think even my Sydney born mother suffered a dose of something akin to this "culture shock", coming to a dusty outer suburb hundreds of miles from her old extended family and friends, and this contributed to my parents' marriage eventually breaking up.
Why should it be any easier for current waves of migrants to "fit in", especially this current lot, especially when they are subject to the monotonous scapegoating,for sheappolitical ends, of recent years. The ghettoising is reinforced by responses like last week whipped up up by the scab repulsive "Australian" newspaper. The other normal homesickness pressures are probably tough enough for strangers in a new world, without a mongrel press and media and a government whose expertise as to dog whistling makes Sheik Hillelly, in the spotlight currently, seem by comparison a scared amateur, as to his clumsy appeals to his home constituency.
And the usual pack of howling, illiterate hicks buys it everytime, as if the place was Alabama or 'thirties Germany; looking for the jews.!

Arjay, has it occurred to you that the ASIO and our Federal Police might have concluded the obvious: the Sheik is a crank and a nutbag and about as threatening to our society as the procession of crank nutbag Christian sect leaders who have paraded across our newspapers in recent decades? Their own kooky beliefs and increasingly self-limiting world view always brings them unstuck in the end (often resulting in gaol time), and this Sheik is rapidly approaching his use-by date too.

Arjay, since you’re so worried that religious fascists are a threat to our society, do you include in that rubric Trueaussie’s call to abolish the entire Muslim religion? That’s 300,000 thousand human beings in this country. They tried Trueaussie’s solution in Srebrenica and it was very effective.

I’ll take it that what Trueaussie said was a (disgusting) rhetorical flourish, because the alternative is unthinkable.

By the way, does anybody remember our last Governor-General? The Anglican Archbishop who believed that a 14-year old girl brought upon herself the attentions of a pedophile priest? The one who refused to resign long after it became obvious to everybody else that he had to go? The one who only apologised for his actions and retracted his statements years later? The one whom the leaders of the Australian community, including the PM, all supported until the bitter end?

The Sheik's remarks and subsequent actions seem to be following the example of our former head of state. Perhaps the Sheik embodies Australian values more than many would like to admit...

All you who scorn the Sheik seem to share his mistaken belief that it is women on the street who are most at risk of rape. Yet most women are raped in their own home by men they know.

Every Muslim in Australia could disappear overnight and there would still be thousands of Australian women being raped every year. You could ban the Sheik and close every mosque in the country, and it wouldn't change this fact.

This leads me to conclude that most of you are just looking for an excuse to bash Muslims instead of addressing the real problem of rape in this country.

The uber-liberals posting here want to blame the established society for the immigrant coming to Australia as if the migrant had no personal responsibility in their choice. What these ultra-lefties need to realize is that there are many fatwa published about Muslims going to Democratic societies. With in Islam Muslims are not allowed to go to democratic societies unless for advanced medical treatment or higher education not available in their society, or for business purposes, or to subvert the host countries culture and convert the society to Islam and sharia law.
Muhammad denies Muslims to live in a democratic country for ease of living or financial gain. The Prophet said," The fire of Muslims should not be seen with the fire of Mushrikeen". The Prophet said." I am exempt from a Muslim who lives among pagans". There are many more Hadith and fatwa available but not space to add to my comment. I'm not suggesting that all Muslims are evil but, that under Islam they can not defend democracy or place it before Islam. The dictates of Islam and it's religious leaders must come before any foreign society even if they are the foreigners. Do not look to the Muslim to protect your society. He prefers the authoritarian rule of Islam and sharia.

So Mercurius would be happy to just roll over and see Shariah law imposed in Austarlia?No one from the alternate philosophies is suggesting violence,however Muslims constantly allude to their religious beliefs being offended and thus they have no control over the possible consequences.

It is this constant threat of possible violence that blackmails our Govts into slowly submitting to their demands.We have special Govt funded prayer rooms,anti religious vilification laws in Victoria,shopping centres sanitising Christmas by removing religious symbols,McDonalds that won't have any bacon on their premises,and special Govt funding just for one reclcitrant group.

We just need to simply have the courage to draw a line in the sand and say no,you cannot preach this unfetted hatred of western women and get away with it.Just living in denial will see the mind games they play intensify.Someone will again say something outrageous from their group,they'll pretend to mis quoted and more nutters from other religious extremes will see their chance for their day in the sun.We have to come down hard on it and stamp this nonsense out now.

amongst the few good points raised here, mostly by merc and philo, this discussion is a damn farce. listen to yourselves. muslim bashing, ignorance, generalisations and ocker superiority.

i am reading along with you guys, but have no real desire to contribute thoughtfully as I'm sure it would probably be squandered by some capital-letter overusing pig headed aussie dick.

after reading these discussions, i am so glad i live in the bush where life is simple, safe and fun. i dont have to worry about multiculturism and how it affects all you city dwellers, the most i have to worry about is how to stop the kangaroos eating my garden!

EdwardCav

People are passionate about such outbursts as Hilaly's because it insulted every female in Australia. Do you not feel just a little offended by his remarks ?
He said "Its your fault" to girls, due to immodest dress.

Now.. do you
a) Agree with this ?
b) Disagree ?
c) See any dangers in such statements remaining unchallenged ?

The Muslim we are 'bashing' is Hilaly, just like most of us are also 'bashing' the Werribee thugs. (In fact the WORLD is bashing them.. see YouTube comments)

Islam is a threat to our whole social fabric. (note the word 'Islam') because of views like Hilalys which are in fact "Islamic" views.
A lot of nominal muslims will take issue with what he said, but the place you and all should be looking for the true face/essense of Islam in regard to women is in the Sharia teaching.

See Tahfeem ul Qur'an by Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi, Vol. 2 pp. 112-113 footnote 44; Also see commentary on verses 23:1-6: Vol. 3, notes 7-1, p. 241; 2000, Islamic Publications

It is made clear (just by reading Quran Surah 23:5-7 it is clear) that a man is entitled to be intimate with captive slave girls, as they are his legal "property".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_Slavery#_note-8

The reasoning is "Allah=>Mohammed=>Koran+Hadith+Histories=>Sharia=>Hilaly=>Muslims"

Muslims who speak against him are out of order re Sharia.

There is no such teaching whatsoever in in the Bible which is applicable to today. (The New Testament is our reference for understanding the old regarding Post Christ behaviour).

The position of women in the New Testament is "Husbands love your wives as Christ love the Church" and.. "Treat the younger women as sisters in all purity"
"An Elder of the church must be the husband of ONE wife"

Ah, Mercurius', is it 'unthinkable'? Is that what you call Saudi Arabia, the fact that no other religions are tolerated, the fact that foreigners must wear clothes to fit in with the religious tone of the country? Why then is it so horrifying to imagine an Australia (or western society) without Islam? Did you assume that I was suggesting to wipe out 300,000 people? No sir, tis not the people, tis the religion that is at fault. Now I take it that you are of the breed that would like to sit and discuss, come to some kind of compromise with our friendly Islamic cousins so we can all live in harmony in our lovely country. Cannot be done. A choice must be given, either to live in Australia without any sign of their religion (no mosques, religious clothing etc) or politely leave. "OH, how outrageous" I hear you yell. Actually, no. If you want outrageous, just sit back, do nothing and monitor what happens in Australia (and the western world in general) over the next 25 years in the name of Allah!

Edwardcav won't debate because the facts are undeniable.Tanveer Ahmed was quoted in The Australian saying,"The Mufti meant exactly what he said,and those views are widely held.I did my own little poll this morning,of a security guard and others who are Muslim,and all said they agreed with the Mufti,that he was absolutely right."

Now we have all these left wing hand wringers trying to deny reality because it does not fit well with their ideals.Tanveer is a very courageous man taking them to task like this.The Sheik won't be deposed because most Muslims think exactly like him.It is not the minority as the apologists would have us believe.There is no doubt that we have another "inconvenient truth" to confront and our ignorance will not be blissful.

A message to me from a Sydney Lebanese Muslim on youTube after he said "Aussies can't fight" as a comment on 'Cronulla' video uplodaded there.... and I asserted they can.

QUOTE: (Malik911)
Bla bla bla...All white trash boys are so big in their mouth..
Well what you did after whoever beat the sh_t out of the Steve was not humane either.. Australia is not your land it is aborigignals.. So stop wz your white power trash f____ng country pumpkin attitude you have. I would love to fight wz you..but i am not a fighter i prefer fighting in group like you mentioned 12 against 1 that is my motto. The more you are the stronger you are. We dont care about the honour and sh_t since it has extinct for long time ago. You can see that in Iraq and Afghanistan what you assh_les doing there is same tactic like the lebs have in Sydney. You have USA (world Superpower) and Britain, Italy, Australia,Japan,Germany, Denmark, Canada, Poland, And many more countries who are bombing 2 poor and tiny countries.. DO u call your army for fighting wz justice??
So stuff your sh_t up in your as_. The day your white piece of sh_t goverment stop gangbanging and bombing poor countries like it is now, Then i will fight wz you alone.
You should be ashamed for what you and your ancesstors have done to aborginials...The stolen generation and their land culture.. Can u give them it back??
Retarded Narrowminded Redneck..
UNQUOTE

Note the reference to 'odds'... "12 to 1..thats my motto"

Yep.. tolerance is alive and well in the Lebanese Muslim community.

All this simply underscores the failure of 'Multi-Culturalism' and exposes the political agenda behind it.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20658333-601,00.html

["Leo McLeay, an influential backbencher from his party's Right faction, made no bones about their belief that Hilali should stay and lobbied on his behalf.
They were under pressure from the growing local Muslim community in their neighbouring western Sydney seats of Blaxland and Grayndler.
The Lakemba mosque where Hilali was the spiritual leader was in McLeay's electorate"]

Yes David Boaz,Paul Keating and his Labor Govt betrayed it's own people by giving Sheik Hilali residency against all the advice from ASIO and even those in his own party,just to secure a few seats.I don't think that Mick Keelty or Amanda Vandstone really get either.Nothing has changed as regards immigration policy,in fact there seems to an ignorant abyss of the reality we are now facing.

We have the virus of hateful ignorance in our midst and no one has a clue or the will to confront it.France had 20,000 cars torched along with numerous buildings.Still this violence continues to worsen in terms of police being injured.With fuel set to become more expensive and limitations put on economic activity because of environmental concerns ,we don't need the further pressure of religious/race riots to destroy this great country.

The US stuffing up in Iraq has just generated more extremists.We have to now seek uncompromising,realistic workable solutions since a few bombs in our cities will be nothing compared to the mayhem of civil war.

Arjay, Trueaussie. There are three hundred thousands Muslims in this country. There are 19.7 million non-Muslims. There will never be Sharia law in this country. There isn't even Sharia law in Indonesia, the world's largest Muslim nation.

Of course I don't want Sharia here. I'm not a Muslim. Of course the Sheik should be told to stop. We've all told him that. He's as finished as Peter Hollingworth was finished when the s* hit the fan for him. Oh sure, the Sheik will do just like Hollingworth did; he'll stall, he'll say he's done nothing wrong, various cronies will make a half-hearted attempt to justify and explain his actions; but in the end, he'll be forced out, just like the GG was.

So Arjay, the line in the sand has been drawn. Just take a breath and calm down. The constant wild-eyed hue and cry about "the Muslims are comin'!" and your talk of civil war and Trueaussie implying there'll be Muslim conquests here in 25 years; it's every bit as nutty as the Sheik's pronouncements.

This monomaniacal obsession with what Muslims are doing is blinding you to the thousands of rapes that happen every year around Australia - committed by non-Muslims. Where is your outrage over the girl attacked in her own home in Newington? Lauren Huxley? The Werribee gang assault last week? Or are some rapes worse than others in your eyes?

Mercurius,

That you feel the need to remind people of the past actions of the Govenor General, the Archbishop, or even a previous generation, is based on the totally unfounded assumption that those critical of members of the Muslim faith are selectively critical, rather than objectively critical.

To jump to this conclusion betrays your view that Muslims are not part of our society, but just permanent guests, since only guests customarily are not subject to the same level of critical scrutiny as the regulars.

It's becoming nauseating to hear all these tacit white supremicists shielding their pet Others from our totally justified criticisms of them. We think they are equals, not guests!

The most disrespectful act of all is to not subject someone to criticism, for it implies they are unable to transform, learn from their mistakes, do someting about it, etc. You'de only treat someone you couldn't care less about like that!

This is so irresponsible, since this discourse of victimhood brings a sense of undeserved legitimacy to these bigot's hatred of us, bigots raised to believe that they are more pure than the rest of us and as a result don't want to have "aussy" or "skip" friends but prefer to herd together into violent packs of 'rednecks' to intimidate and assault others, justifying all of their problems as the result of imaginary racism supposedly acted upon them by would be employers, the media, the schools, etc.

What laughable crap!

They believe this fantasy because of their racist herd instinct, but you condone and push it because you consider them children, incapable of autonomy.

You will be partly responsible for the next young man who's head is kicked in by ten of these middle eastern savages, for you are giving the green light to the vilest bigots that have ever walked the earth.

When a Muslim leader abuses freedom of speech, there really ARE tangible effects, people really DO justify their crimes on this basis!

The wisest thing Alla did was ban alcohol! Just imagine the convoys of December 11 but drunk!

There's no doubt Sheik was speaking about sydney gang rapes.

Now, let's look at the girl who was raped:

18-year-old white girl, was raped 25 times by up to 14 muslim men including Skaf in 2000, was being Australian.

What was her dress?
A typical dress suited for job-interview. (may be a skirt which exposed the meat (legs) to a small extent.

What was she doing?
Sitting on a train, dressed for a job interview in her best suit, and reading The Great Gatsby.

What did the rapist(s) say during rape?
she was a slut, an "Aussie pig" as they called her later, while boasting: "I'm going to f--- you Leb style."

What did the the father of rapist(s) say?
"What do they expect to happen to them? Girls from Pakistan don't go out at night."

What did Sheik Feiz Mohammad say about that?
A victim of rape every minute somewhere in the world," Sheik Feiz Mohammad told 1000 people at Bankstown Town Hall last year. "Why? No one to blame but herself. She displayed her beauty to the entire world ... strapless, backless, sleeveless, nothing but satanic skirts, slit skirts, translucent blouses."

what did Sheik Hilaly say during that ramadan sermon?

"A woman possesses the weapon of seduction. It is she who takes off her clothes, shortens them, flirts, puts on make-up and powder and takes to the streets, God protect us ... then it's a look, then a smile, then a conversation ... then a date, then a meeting, then a crime, then Long Bay jail. Then you get a judge, who has no mercy, and he gives you 65 years."

Now, people who defend the sheik please come up with some other stuff.

What Sheik Hilaly said at the close of Ramidan it truly offensive to every civilised woman and every honourable Muslim male. However what he said off the cuff while under Media pressure reveals his real thoughts. He is not about enhancing our society and the personal lives of people in our society. He is a political extremist seeking to undermine civilised society especially the USA and the lives of those with whom he cannot accept.

He ought to learn of Joseph taken as a slave, who while in Egypt saved their Nation from starvation, Of Daniel als taken as a slave who became the chief counsellor in Babylon to the King. They became one of the people to advance the life of the people who had taken them captive.

One whose life is primitive in thought and destructive in intent is not teaching the happiness of all mankind but is political subservise.
He fosters extremism, subservism and hatred. These attitudes are not PEACE and LOVE.

I will do nothing but condemn the sheik and his choice of words, and furthermore, every scum-of-the earth mongrel who thinks that they can treat a woman with any amount of disrespect. Rape is the lowest of all acts.

I don't think youtube is a credible source to be quoting to reflect the views of an entire religion.

Remember when we f_cked up heaps of aborigines? These probably have more social issues like rape and abuse in their respective communities than muslims do in Australia. A difference here is that there is no union of Aboriginal Australians to allow for someone like the sheik to come out and reflect their ideas of why this is happening - however immoral those views may be. We've grown used to Indigenous issues here in Australia but not these Islamic ones, no. Australia has made many mistakes, and let us not forget. I can see where some muslims are coming from when they speak of us (Westerners) so poorly. And even if everyone else can't, at the very least, we are a mostly lucky, rich and highly-developed country. Of course they are going to be jealous, along with the rest of the world who isn't up there with us. I feel, however, that I should mention that this is not even close to an excuse for vile behaviour in our society.

I believe that conversations (or "debates") like this foster too much hatred, often uneducated and not warranted - and of course history has taught us that such thinking can easily lead to radicalism, conflict and later bloodshed. Let us think and converse with the same passion, but lets invite compassion too.

If anything, the whole vibe of this conversation and the issues behind it, teach us that we should assess the morality of our foriegn policy, pay greater attention to the train of thought behind all malicious crimes in our country, and evaluate the place of all religion in our society.

Abyss... the view I took from Mercurious's comments wasn't excusing the sheikh. Reading his posts, he seemed as annoyed as anyone, but was asking people to look at the bigger picture - that goes for this thread and the other two similar ones posted on the same day.

To me, this is what is frustrating here. No one is really excusing the sheikh's comments, but those who are putting them in context are being accused of being apologists.
From what I see, David_Boaz isn't either, though he's arguing that society needs more modesty.

(Guys, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.)

So we're pretty much all agreed the Sheikh's comments are worthy of condemnation. Great.
So rather than form a lynch mob (which appears to be the goal of some irate posters) some have tried to place his comments in context, and when they do, they are being harangued.

Stop. Think. Calm down.

Bear in mind these kinds of statements, these kinds of issues, these kinds of problems have been around for a long time and we're still a functioning society.

There are bigger issues that warrant more attention, yet are being all but ignored. Why are we more pissed off about the comments of one sheikh, than the horrifying rape statistics that believe it or not, isn't a problem caused by muslims.

Sanity and clarity people. Hold on to it if you can.

Turnrighthenleft brings welcome sobriety and a sense of proportion after all the other frantic hysteria.
Also agree to an extent re Boaz as to where he's coming from, as to "value and meaning". Just wish he could be a little more tolerant. Y'know, "casting the first stone" sort of thing. At least he sometimes discusses ideas rather than ONLY loading his posts with abuse, like certain others. And they call the sheik "intolerant"?!
Was the old bloke was talking exclusively to his "own"? Perhaps our gaudy and glitzy consumer culture actually causes legitimate doubt for observers. Perhaps he genuinely fears the young people of his community heading down the wrong path.
It's not much different what he says, to the lectures some of our "olds" gave us when young about the perils of "sex, drugs,'n rock'n roll". We said "ho-hum" at the time, but in some respects I now know I would personally have been better off following some of their gloomy, crude advice.
And why all the outrage over his commments about women? Surely not ALL these are little 'saints', ALL the time, when it comes to c--k teasing and promiscuity?
And the nonsense on a recent 4 Corners show demonstrating the weird attitudes and values of some ( particularly stupid ) Australian women as revealed as to the subject of plastic surgery and ruinous tit plastic, may indicate a sincerity on his part in trying to have his young people avoid vulgar and shallow notions of appearance over substance. The sh-t represented on Australian Idol and Big Brother ought to offend ANY thinking person.
Whether or not Hillaly's comments are misogynistic or not, they are so often reiterated in private conversations in our own community as cultural lore that for many, it would be hypocritical to jump on him .
The incident was just another example of a filthy political Murdoch 'beat up", for Howard's benefit. Maybe it's actually the morals of some in our own society need a look at, too- esp in the tabloid press and media!

Hello Tanveer,

My eyes are opened now as a muslim woman Shakira speaks about her experiences:

Eyes opened by Islamic chauvinism

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20673860-601,00.html

" Mustafa - tried to drag her under their control in the name of Islam."

" As soon as we made contact, he said I should be living under my father's roof, or with my grandmother, or an aunt.

"I didn't realise how serious he was. I just told him that I wasn't interested."

"He (Mustafa) would berate me about that, in part because she was Jewish, but also because I was living out of home," she said.

"Eventually I told him to get lost, mind his own business. But he would come to the house, knocking on the door, to insist I come home with him, to live under our father's roof."

"where a young man, a relative, would decide how I should live, or dress, or behave."

"We should know from London that young Muslim men are feeling disenfranchised - they do not fit into their own cultures, or into Western cultures - and we should not have leaders encouraging them toward this frightening, controlling behaviour."

I am sure this is happening in almost all muslim families.

Now Sheik Hilali has been preaching this hate and bile for some 20yrs in Australia.Now Peter Costello noted today that when the Sheik was caught out a month ago preaching his bile to his flock of 5000 people,not one of these moderates complained or protested about him.You see,there are many thousands who agree with him.After 20 yrs most would know his track record and what all the surrepticious innuendoes meant.He just got too cocky and let his guard slip.

Now we hear that Muslims will have a march of support and solidarity for the Sheik at Lakemba.Those numbers will be very revealling since for every overt supporter in that area,there will be at least tens times that number waiting in the wings.

The extremists now realise that their cover has been blown,and now they risk dividing the Muslim Community.The solution is to show power and intimidate the moderates as they have successfully done in the past.

We should maintain the pressure on the Muslim Community to demonstrate their alligences,since now they have to make a clear cut choice between total alienation or integration into the broarder Australian society.We cannot allow grey areas of wishy washy multi-culturalism destroy our country.

Sigh.

Wouldn't you love to have the likes of edwardcav supporting you in a survival situation?His solution to all conflict,would be just the non commital "sigh" of indifference.

TurnRightThenLeft,

Sorry, but in the "context" of the sheik's comments (his level of support, the parallels across the globe, and the possibility of terrorism in Australia), I think that your's or Mercurious' "asking people to look at the bigger picture" wilfully neglects the proper "bigger picture", and is thus newspeak for "let's not do anything about it" (to say the least).

But what really makes it difficult to "calm down" is knowing that you'de be getting hysterical over far far more innocuous matters if they came from the mouth of an Anglo, or perhaps simply a member of the Liberal party, apparently the only kinds of people you must consider to have any capacity for autonomy, and hence responsibility, and are thus worthy of criticism.

I bet that prior to the arrests of those jihadists in Sydney and Melbourne that you were ranting on hysterically about how Howards sedition laws will rob us all of our "freedom".

I bet you'd agree with A Denton's pathetic motive in his latest documentary, where he felt some warped need to balance the pressure on the Muslim diaspora by symbolically associating Bush and the Catholic right, whom you'de probably fear far more than any jihadist.

I bet you went hysterical over One Nation, just for inarticulately voicing concern over the xenophobic, selfish tendencies of large amounts of members of various ethnic groups, a prerequisite for branch stacking to be at all viable.

Just think, decades from now when we start to realise that all along it was fools like you, who hold such a superficial conception of "racism", were actively (perhaps unwittingly) turning a blind eye to xenophobic violence committed against "Westerners", particularly the poor of the outer suburbs where they are in the minority.

What's wrong with talking about 'lions of lebanon' raping 'aussy sluts'? I think we should talk about it 24/7 for ten years straight

abyss

"While racism as an ideological belief in a hierarchy of biological races has lost its coherence and has very few adherents today, the word is still used to denote the multitude of ways in which human beings are marginalised, demeaned, threatened, excluded and de-humanised on the basis of the way they look or a devalorisation of their group identity. The multitude of forms that racism takes today makes it more difficult than ever to formulate anti-racist strategies that are capable of countering its slippery nature"

You said:
>>What's wrong with talking about 'lions of lebanon' raping 'aussy sluts'? <<

Does anyone know the ethnicity of the alleged Canterbury Bulldogs rapists or victim? This is not an irreverent joke, but a relevant question about the connection between crime and culture.
Let us compare the publicity surrounding three "gang rape" crimes. With the Canterbury Bulldogs rugby league club, the main reference to culture has been to the "male pin-up" culture characterised by escalating claims of group sex, male bonding, and rites of passage.
Even our Prime Minister has publicly defended the league's reputation, stressing that it is "quite unfair" on the players who have "not been accused of anything" to be subjected to these "generalisations": "I know a lot of people associated with rugby league and they are decent, upright citizens."
However, we saw no equivalent caution from our national leader against generalisations during the hysteria over Sydney's "Lebanese gang" rapes. Where was the "I know a lot of people from the Lebanese community and they are decent, upright citizens"?
If our knee-jerk reaction is to blame the ethnic culture for the crime rather than the criminal subculture, then it is written off as incurable because it is "in the blood".
Let us now compare the rugby league players with the youths from an exclusive Anglican all-boys boarding school in Sydney who were charged in 2001 with committing 75 sexual assaults over a six-month period: 50 on one victim and 25 on another.

Please read an earlier OLO piece: http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=2060

How the media cover gang rape, sport, power - and prejudice

Well said sabasakin.

Abyss... few points.

Can't help but feel your commentary there is a tad emotive, though I must admit I did voice some concerns about sedition laws and I'm still concerned about them.
I wouldn't have desribed it as "ranting hysterically", but I suppose that's for others to judge.

The reason for concern about the catholic right and president bush is the simple fact that they are the ones in power.
They have much more ability to decide the fate of the world than any single terrorist.
I would never say that the motivations of the US president or the catholic right is something as heinous as murder, though I'd say they wield more power and have more scope to abuse that power, so we should be keeping an eye on them.

Were I to interpret your statements in a similar broad fashion as to how you are interpreting mine, I'd say you were implying that people such as the liberals, and bush are beyond reproach and shouldn't be questioned.

However, I suspect that would be summarising this issue a little too simply, correct? Yes? No? Perhaps this is just another hysterical rant of a fool that isn't worthy of comment.
Note here that I for one, tend to regard statements that attribute hypothetical views to people as more indicative of ranting.

In response to the other statements: nothing wrong with talking about 'lions of lebanon' rapists. I'd just urge you to talk about all the other rapists too, who don't necessarily come from lebanon. Don't turn a blind eye to any of them, regardless of what minority they come from.

As for 'bigger picture' meaning 'lets do nothing' I would refute that - I've no problem advocating harsher sentences for rapists, especially violent ones. I'd also suggest we look at how our system prosecutes them.

In regard to the sheikh, he won't last long anyhow, that's been pretty clear for a while and has become crystal clear in the last few days.

Sabaskin,

The difference is some nuts rape as they are sick fools ; while islamic nuts rape driven by islamic lust

[i.e rape a white woman for not wearing a hijab;
rape a white woman for not wearing a jijab;
rape her as she deserves it by lowering the dress;
rape her as she is uncovered meat kept outside] .

Got the difference?

Tit for Tat,

You said:

>> The difference is some nuts rape as they are sick fools ; while islamic nuts rape driven by islamic lust.<<

Bad luck, because the Koran (God’s Word) does not endorse any such view. It is not a genuine Muslim view. Rape is a criminal offence in Islam -- regardless of the victim’s attire and religious background.

Continuing from my comments on Irfy’s thread…(my quota on that thread has finished for the day unfortunately)…

The Koran (God's Word, according to Muslims) does not endorse patriarchy, polygyny or slavery - it merely notes their existence and provides legislation for where it does. It's underlying weltanschauung, however, is one of egalitarianism. That is the ideal goal of sharia.

By the way, my comments were excerpted from another OLO poster called ummyasmin.

Tit for tat, you asked:

(4) If a muslim converts to non-muslim religion, why should he die/suffer?

Koran (God’s Word) does not endorse any punishment for conversion from Islam to another religion. Islam, at least mainstream Sunni Islam does not condone the concept of priesthood. A mufti’s views are not binding on Muslims.

Philo, you said:

>>West,
On religious oppression I happen to agree with you, it is not a genuine Christian view.<<

Philo, you also said:

>> Muslims generally believe all sexual sins are schemed by women.<<

Bad luck, because the Koran (God’s Word) does not endorse any such view. So, to return your words back to you, “It is not a genuine… (Muslim) view.”

To ones who might be interested to know,

Koran (God’s Word) never mentions about 17 or 71 promised virgins in Paradise. It uses an Arabic word called “jawzan”, the English translation of which would be “spouse”.

Well… that’s enough for tonight…gtg.

Sabasakin & TLTR,

I would bet my life that if I searched through previous posts regarding criticism of those Anglos and Christians you feel the need to remind us all of, that neither of you then expressed the same pressing need to remind everyone that there are also Muslims and Middle Eastern members of the community who have done such and such.

How come you yourself cannnot see how transparent your supposed objectivity is? You are nothing BUT political!

I, along with others you accuse of "turning a blind eye" to these other examples of bigotry, are the people who can proudly claim to be against redneck bigotry in ALL of its colours and creeds. YOU cannot.

TLTR,

RE your argument in support of your bias: "The reason for concern about the catholic right and president bush is the simple fact that they are the ones in power. They have much more ability to decide the fate of the world than any single terrorist"

How do you measure "power", and how do you decide when it is "good" or "bad" power?

Do you underestimate the "power" of Al Jazera's filthy propaganda?

Since "factual evidence" can be taken out of context, I'd look to structural or institutional practices for verification ot falsification.

For example, in the US, from the media right through to the Pentagon, we have lots of evidence of "dissent", and no Fatwas or Tianamen Squares as a result. And no, it's NOT because the US has a more sophisticated systen to "Manufacture Consent", for that very system itself willingly churns out the most pathetic anti-Bush types like Mike Moore right before a Presidential election!

Do you underestimate the (violent) power of the far-left's constructed discourse of victimhood surrounding various ethnic/religious "minorities"?

Here we have a case of people raised to coinsider Anglos as filth, that is, pre-existing rednecks, who are then given, by the loony-left, an existential space in which to re-articulate their racism as a legitimate reaction to the so-called racist host society. The left cultivate the discourse for this madness! ....

.... That Anglos are for the first time in Australian history articulating their experinces of racism is a sure sign of the extent to which the media, education department, and the universities are "powerful", overrun as they are by the populist herd politics of the pro-multiculty left (and thus, 'turning a blind eye' to skipp-bashing).
Prior to now one was called a "racist" for voicing such concerns, concerns ABOUT the xenophobia of sections of the selfishly insular branch-stackable population.

Even the recent HEROC pamphlet "Voices" has for the first time printed the experiences of some Anglo victims of racism (Does it make you cringe?).

And there's no way you could interpret my statements in "a similar broad fashion" as to how I supposedly interpreted yours, since I am not the one to have put myself in the position of having an obvious bias, you are. You have absolutely NO reason to advise me: "Don't turn a blind eye to any of them [other rape cases], regardless of what minority they come from".

I would just as much criticise those you criticise, such as past "gangs" of skinheads who would intimidate non whites.

But just imagine how the victims of those skinheads would have felt if we all adopted your position of telling them they must consider the existence of non-white gangs of racists also! Laughable!

I suppose I do underestimate the power of al-jazeera's "filthy propaganda, though apparently I'm not allowed to mention that the hard right has their own propaganda with a much bigger budget.

Mentioning that of course is apparently taboo, because those of us who feel the need to point out the other side are supposedly being pseudo-racists against our own kind.

As for measuring power, fine.
Let's just dump any semblance of logic and say they're all as powerful as each other. Let's just trust our leaders, and be sure they'll do the right thing. How could I possibly be as stupid as to say the American President is powerful and needs to be monitored?

All I can say is I am against bigotry regardless of creed, though if you want to deny that, then fine.
It doesn't really make much iota of difference to me in the long run, believe what you will.

I fear this discussion has ceased to be constructive, and bid you adieu before I really do start ranting.

sabasakin,
I note you have lifed phrases as quotes from my posts taken out of context to suit you point of view. You have misquoted my point of view, with deception. The current views of rape and sex is forbidden within Islam, but unbelievers are uncovered meat waiting for muslim cats [Muslim males]to devour. The most senior Muslim Immam of Australia has expressed the current Muslim view of western women - they incite rape in his view.

For those still interested, or hopefully, with an air of reflective realisation to some pragmatic longevity, the debate continues. here is a transcript from sbs's insight program

http://news.sbs.com.au/insight/topic.php?id=119

So Arjay, what kind of effort would it take you to say ASIO and our Federal Police should be doing something.

About exposing racists and bigot attacking Muslims and Islam with opinions based on flawed logic and emotions rather then the facts?

"You only have to walk the streets of some Sydney suburbs only to be spat at or experience some lurid remark".

BOAZ_David in getting what he thinks is The Koran from a web site where anyone can change the information.

It is clear that David and others who do the same thing is scare of the truth, especially of what different versions of The Koran is really saying.