No foreign workers should be brought into Australia. But, would aborigines work even if they were offered the jobs? They are now too used to receiving their sit-down money from governments too stupid and too idle to encourage them to – or insist – that they move out of their apartheid-like existence into the real world: to work and live like the rest of us.

Our aid to our neighbours should have seen those countries build up thier own industries. Maybe we should have more say in how that aid money is spent. For instance, is it necessary for PNG MPs being driven about in the latest mercedes benz vehicle passing somone on the road wearing a loincloth and riding an ox.

Leigh, time and again I ask you to verify with proof your accusations against my people with substantive proof and time again you fail to do so.

The difference with being knowledgeable and being intelligent is that intelligent people readily admit when they know nothing.

You are neither.

'The organisations that are being paid to find jobs for Aborigines and Torres Strait Islanders must do their job.'

Too right!

I am, and have always been, highly critical of these job shops. They very definitely serve their own interests first, even from the very day of their conception.

I fully support Prof H Hughes' position on this indegenous point. What we need is for some one to spearhead an attack on the Beattie government so that the honourable thing can be done. Some one should ring him up. All day too. Or perhpas Aiden Wridgeway.

I know what would work best though: Ring the PM.

Probably there would be a lot that would say 'let em eat cake'. But they have been doing that a long time now. The bannanas republic ought to wake up to itself, and get with the spirit and momentum of Aboriginal rising. I'm sure theres plenty of room in country to make it work.

Im sure they would be well pleased if they got something out of it.

Rainier,

What part of Leigh's post do you need proof of?

"No foreign workers should be brought into Australia".
Clearly it is better for Aboriginal communities if work is allocated to them rather than external resources. Surely you agree work is better than dole?

"But, would aborigines work even if they were offered the jobs?"
The poverty trap is a widely accepted fact no? If working means dropping benefit? How about getting to and living at these fruit picking sites?

"They are now too used to receiving their sit-down money"
Welfare dependancy is again a well accepted fact. Refer you to Noel Pearson's article on this very site http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=1060.

"from governments too stupid and too idle to encourage them to –"
Do you deny government intervention in aboriginal affairs is less than effective? Which of the thousands of primary sources should I quote from?

"or insist – that they move out of their apartheid-like existence
into the real world: to work and live like the rest of us".
I refer you back to Noel Pearson's article : 'There is a sense of hopelessness about Aboriginal Australia that many feel, but nobody admits to. Nobody says it out loud but many people do not really believe that a change for the better will ever happen. It is possible that Aboriginal separate development eventuates in a way totally different to what those who feared 'a nation within a nation' thought. We might end up with enclaves, permanently illiterate, permanently outside the real economy, permanently paralysed by drugs, kept alive with minimal government support and conveniently remote from mainstream Australia. Outside these enclaves Aboriginal Australia would be just a dark shade in the skin of part of the underclass (and a small group in the middle class).'

How is that not effective Aparthied?

So Rainier, I struggle to see the factual problem with Leigh's post. I look forward to being corrected..

gw

Rainer,
Leigh, gw and other are expressing an opinion. It is an ignorant opinion, but one they are entitled to express. I fail to see what posesses people with no "real" idea, except "public perception" or text books to make such pig ignorant statements.

I think you can all be confident that the principal reason why orchards are interested in engaging Pacific-islanders in fruitpicking labour is that, for one reason or another, it is cheaper to do that, despite the obstacles described in the article.

So let's get to the bottom of that issue first.

In the meantime, is there some reason why we can't develop policies that enhance employment prospects for people in Australia and our neighbours in the Pacific? My own travels int he Pacific (and I admit that this comment is based on my anecdotal experience only) indicates that labour in Australia and New Zealand provides vital income to these nations (and, correlatively, ensures their stability, which is in turn important for our security).

As for the suggestion that we should never import labour into Australia that is ridiculous. It's been happening since 1788 and we haven't done too badly out of it!

I think it is a great idea. Somehow I cannot come to grips with importing workers.

I take it that these jobs are available now or very soon. So lets get cracking to fill them. The Beattie Government need contacting. Noel Pearson had some people down to Victoria picking fruit awhile back. How do I get in touch with Noel? What about the Feds and NT governments?

Rainier and others of aboriginal decent, what about any contacts you have to spread the word.

$1000 per week is far better than the dole. It may just give some the bit of capital they need to start something else.

Paying decent wages and providing decent working conditions to unemployed Aboriginal and other Australians to pick fruit would make very little difference to the cost of that fruit. A recent article in the Seattle times worked out that only about 6% of the cost of apples (one of the most labour intensive crops grown in the US) went to the farmer, and about a third of that to the illegal immigrant farm workers. Their wages could be doubled or even tripled and all the costs passed on without the consumer even noticing it. Even if the Pacific Islanders would work more cheaply, we are still stuck with paying welfare benefits to the local unemployed and paying for all the health problems and social pathology that go with long term unemployment.

The real obstacle here might be tax and welfare policies that claw back so much of the gains from any effort that it ceases to be worthwhile. Because of all the benefits from work to both the individual and the community it is very shortsighted not to address this.

Divergence,
Yes I agree. There needs to be incentives for people to do this type of work.

Years ago people in say Melbourne would take their holidays at fruit picking time and they and wives would go fruit picking. All cash in hand and Vic Rail even had special trains running to the fruit growing areas. Many a house or house block was paid off that way, with hard work. Sydney blokes that wanted extra money could go to the markets and pick up a few hours work each day before starting their regular job.

Keating buggered that when he said everyone had to have a tax file number to get a job. A few inspectors were sent to the fruit areas and the cockies were then too scared to put anyone on, for cash.
People then decided it was not worth the effort and stopped fruit picking.

I reckon that people that work that hard, like picking fruit in 150 degrees and say shearing should not have to pay any tax. The money is mostly back in the economy next week anyway. It is a way for those with nothing but a willingness to work can get on top. I say good on them.

If the Government was smart they wou;ld give incentive to do hard work.

GW,

Pearson has never provided clear evidence that welfare created dependency.

In my opinion he deliberately avoids any analysis or reference to historical and intergenerational causes to contemporary Aboriginal poverty - thus providing luddites like Leigh with a simplistic approach to 'knowing' what is wrong 'with aborigines' - no research is required, just and armchair ‘expert’ opinion. Its all so easy isn't it!

For your benefit I have found his [Pearson’s} analysis to be totally ahistorical – surprising this when you consider his formal studies at the university of Sydney was in the area of Aboriginal history.

His mono-causal connection between the introduction of the welfare system and increasing social dysfunction ignores the impact of a whole range of factors since colonisation began.

As a hypothetical experiment lets pick any non-Indigenous community somewhere in Australia and via government and legislation lets

-take their land from them
-steal children we feel need to 'civilised'
-pay them half of no wages for the next 50 years, confiscate child endowment and other social security benefits
-lease their labour out to the pastoral or mining industry at no cost
-control and regulate their movements through govt and police laws of control

And then lets revisit them in 80 years and ask why they haven’t engaged in the real economy - write neo-con theory that absolves the need for any deeper inquiry.

Leigh knows nothing about the realities of Aboriginal people and I sense you know about as much.

Are you entitled to an opinion? Of course you are.

Is this opinion based on any longitudinal engagement with Indigenous people, communities, and issues? Absolutely not.

But you still want me to indulge this ignorance as if this does not matter. It does matter and I suggest you take some responsibility and deal with it.

As with Leigh , I sense that you care more about retaining and protecting your redneck ideas and myths about Aboriginal people than caring of the plight of Aboriginal people themselves. The funny thing is that you think this insincerity is not obvious. Guess what, it sticks out like dogs b%^lls

Not everyone lost their land,

Not everyone lost their traditional hunting activities,

Not everyone lost their culture,

yet life experiences are often so similar.

A late friend would say, we became prisoners of flour, sugar and tea... coming into a life that looked easier, at costs not understood at the time, but faced with these choices again with the knowledge of now, would we choose to go back and remain there NO WAY !

Life is easier, life is better, we just have to learn how to enjoy it more.

All around the world has been a multi-generational leap from hunter gathering to cultivation, to whatever we are up to now.

Not everyone progresses at the same pace.

A great deal of the injury over the past 20years has been self inflicted, there has been denial of relationship between personal choice and failure to progress, failure to achieve.

IF you live in communities you would see, and perhaps understand, how family and relationships which in past eras of little intergenerational change were strength have dragged back, punished people who set off to improve things for themselves and their immediate families by accumulating property - be it clothes, cd players, cars, houses...

The complaints about punising effects of high tax rates is the closest explanation i can think of you might understand.

Should my left arm blame my right arm for where i do not succeed, or should I learn to do things bette

I live in NQ and I don't know of anyone getting $20 ph picking fruit!

I have worked picking/packing and the money is not there. Usually it is around $13-14, some can even get $15, and the hours can be sporadic. Sometimes from 6am to 12 with no break or unpaid hours of standing around due to weather, breakdowns etc. Days of no work or only an our or so for the day.

Another issue is accomadation - farmers no longer have barracks etc for workers. Workers don't miraculously appear for work and disappear at the end of the day. They need somewhere to eat, shower and sleep.

If the farmers could guarantee 40 hours per week min. at $20 per hour there would be a queue of workers. Black and white Australians would be there.

Leigh - I challenge you to come north and see how many Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders work in the banana farms. The work is hard, heavy and dirty. How dare you assume that Aboriginal people will not work. I would like to see you having a 70-80 kg bunch of bananas dropped on your shoulder and see you carry it out through the mud, in the tropical heat, to the trailer. Or spend all day working in the paddock in the heat and humidity.

Your redneck would be glowing!!

I agree with Aka, there are a number of disincentives that are not appreciated. One he has not mentioned is travel cost. You can drive 60 - 80km for a start only to have the weather prevent any work. It used to be that if you had worked 2 hours before rain, you were paid a minimum 4 hours if you were unable to work more that day. Travel costs at today's gas prices add to the gamble. Farmers are now very wary of allowing workers to camp on the property. I don't know where Dr Hughes gets her $20 an hour figure. The award is approx $17.50.

LEIGH , if you can't treat people as equals you will always have trouble .
Help our own people to get ahead .[kartiya]

The lack of fruit pickers also applies to grape pickers, as the vineyard owners complain they cannot get pickers.
As Aka puts it, there are costs involved for the picker.

My experience as a grape picker six years ago: Early start 530am, own transport (petrol), Wait at centrol point until allocated a vineyard, drive to vineyard (petrol), work ( with own secateurs) till 10.00 am 15 minute smokoe, work through till 1.00pm lunch break ( supply your own food) 30 minutes, work through till 4.00pm.

Monetary return for the picker, one dollar per bucket picked, temperatures in the 30c, hands and arms cut with the vines, Water available from tank attached to grape loader from communal cup and constant harrasment from vineyard supervisor to pick everything. It was not uncommon to do half a day and be told "No more work".

My average daily return 80 buckets then to add insult to personal injury, When paid at the end of the week, Tax deducted.

It was then that I realised, I was being exploited.

Luckily I could go home to my own bed, exhausted, a number of pickers had to sleep in their own vehicles.

I am all for doing a good days hard work, but not when treated as a serf!

Kipp, thanks for the insights. Like most season work fruit picking has its problems.

While the author of the article has good intentions, surely our young people should be given choices like other Australian kids have – choices like access to a good education and other choices that let them decide what they want to do with their lives.

Yes fruit picking may provide access to a labour market, provide work experience and develop some fundamental life skills - where none exists in many remote (and urban) areas for Aboriginal youth and older workers.

But I don't think it should be a substitute for access into other professional and/or skilled labour markets.

The shortage of apprentices for instance.

I was a labourer for the first two decades of my working life and now work in a completely different environment. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't change this for the world as labouring taught me heaps, but it was also a dead end, at least I thought it was, others may not - which is absolutely fine by me.

Yes, the provision of jobs would be good for those who have no opportunities at all. Certainly better than import substitutions.

But I don’t think it should not be promoted as a panacea.

[Great posts kartiya jim, aka, jup! - seems like we are destined to waste our time sorting out their 'head' problems first before we get down to the topic at hand. ]

Rainier,
I agree with what you said in your last post. Seasonal work has its problems and should not replace more skilled jobs with better and permanent prospects.

However few opportunities come to those sitting at home. Lots have to leave home to find work and seasonal work does get people out and about and more likely to find other opportunities.

Many seasonal workers I came across, in my younger days, made good money and worked hard while they were young and fit, then used saved money to pay deposit on a business of some sort. Maybe retail, a truck, backhoe, taxi or into something else. Some made a success of their enterprize and others did not. Thats life.

The point is that one has to get out and about to find or make the opportunities. Not everyone can be a professional or tradesman.
Doing seasonal work may give some the contacts required and certainly finance one while away from home.

From the countries point of view, it seems to me far better to keep the wages paid within Australia than have it go overseas to China or other places.

This is why I say Governments should give generous incentives to those willing to work hard. Maybe I was lucky, but the harder I worked the luckier I became.

Totally agree with everything you said Banjo especially about working harder and getting luckier.

I think the safer option would be for fruit pickers to tender out their labor needs and for bidders to emerge from communities themselves.

This approach would allow for community tenderers as labour providers to explore broader labour market opportunities for workers, enter into collective wage agreements (ouch!) and project longer term investment into the workers own employment and career ambitions.

The history of Aboriginal engagement in Australian labour markets is not all rosy. See http://www.eniar.org/action/stolen.html

A lot of our youth in remote areas need good support around them when they enter the real world of work.

For me Aboriginal community’s purchasing these orchids would be the ultimate! When workers have a stakehold in their own employment beyong pay days it ensures some loyalty and good work ethic is embedded into all production values.

Cheers!

Troubles, kartiya? What troubles? I’m as happy as a sand boy. I have no troubles at all.

All people are not equal – and only a fool would dispute that. Some people are not equal to the task of living in the modern world; and they are not all aborigines. There are many, many aborigines who are working and living in the modern world, not banged up on reserves.

We never hear about them. You and your fellow whingers just drag up the no hopers and call for more handouts. We could all be forgiven for thinking that kartiya and co. are also losers, the fuss they make.

If you want to harp on negative people, you’ll get negative back.

AKA,

Everybody whose opinions you don’t like is a redneck, eh? What a deep thinker you are! A real Rhodes Scholar. And you won’t see me lugging bananas, because I don’t have to. I have mentioned many times the aborigines I know who do work and live within the wider community, some with distinction; so don’t your dare question what I “dare” to say, you arrogant twerp.

I really must stop reacting to unintelligent boofheads.

As leigh has shown his/her own social IQ, theres nothing much more to add except!
Not all can be at the top or successful. So how about a little respect to those who struggle to survive. Leigh you may be at the top of the hill of comfort, just remember, there are others that do not have the opportunity,luck or inheritance that you had.

Humility costs nothing!

"If the farmers could guarantee 40 hours per week min. at $20 per hour there would be a queue of workers. Black and white Australians would be there."

Actually not so in the meat industry in WA. There are those sorts
of jobs being offered, still no takers. Fact is that you cannot
force people to work, if they simply don't want to. Some are
on drugs, so you can't put them on a meat chain with a knife, for
safety reasons. Others simply can't be bothered. Others have
simply never learnt the work ethic, like getting out of bed to
rock up for work, despite the drunken party last night etc..

In WA, alot of good workers have gone to the mines, where they
can make huge money as plant operators etc. That leaves a huge
gap in places like meatworks. There is only one solution. Fly
them in as contract seasonal workers from Asia, Aussies simply
don't want the jobs.

Yabby,

Re your post "There is only one solution. Fly them in as contract seasonal workers from Asia". Not so. Aussie workers could be marched in. You know, like under the direct orders of a hard but fair bloke that wears a crown or a royal coat of arms as a rank badge on his arm. As UNIVERSAL national servicemen and women, to work under such wages and conditions of service as the Parliament may determine and the military board prescribe. At the abbatoir, the formed body of troops would, in time-honoured tradition, be referred to as a "work party", and would work as directed by their Officers and NCOs.

Needless to say, such work parties would not be offered as a free bonus to the enterprises claiming that jobs were going begging. To qualify for such assistance, prospective employers in these labour-starved enterprises could be required to meet what should be quite exacting standards of man-management and administration. It might be surprising how many enterprises might opt to refuse the 'work party package', and how not only wages and conditions offerred might change in the mere presence of such a scheme, but how many positions might be filled by non-conscripted labour.

You may note the complete absence of any reference to unions in this preview. The reason should be self-evident. Today they are seen as irrelevant. They became so because for over a century they were hijacked to the service of a belief-system that probably, truth be known, is behind the very globalisation that is now seen as being the root of many of Australia's present difficulties. In their hearts, most remaining supporters of this movement, and what has been claimed to have been its political arm, now know this to be true.

Perhaps freedom can only fully be appreciated if, for a time, it is limited. If Australia is not to experience a 'speedo' regime the like of that which prevailed in parts of Thailand and Burma in 1943, it would be well advised to pay attention to the team game.

"Not so. Aussie workers could be marched in."

Not so FG, not in today's society. Australia has effectively
created a society where work is optional for many. Thats the
reality. Have you ever employed people, operating machinery,
who simply don't want to be there? The damage they can
do is enormous. If they are on drugs, again dangerous. If
they simply don't bother to turn up, again that makes
things like meat chains hard to run.

Fact is, work on a meat chain is not such a pleasant
job, people today prefer cushy jobs, like operating
computers or similar. So exports are being lost and
held up because of the problem. The real problem
is, that WA seems to hardly matter in the bigger
scheme of things, apart from earning money for the
country. With only 10% of the population, our needs
are largely ignored.

I don't think that 900$-1000$ a week, for what
is essentially unskilled labour, or trained on site,
is such a bad deal for the workers. If you know
of anyone who wants a job, tell them to ring Wammco
in Katanning or any other processor in WA.

Ignoring for a moment the implicit racism in the dotty professor's suggestion that, rather than importing impoverished 'coloured' people to perform menial agricultural tasks, we should somehow force our own impoverished 'coloured' people to instead - has it occurred to anybody that the reason the market can't fill these jobs from the Australian workforce is quite simply that it's vile work that pays poorly?

In my youthful travels, I had brief stints picking various fruits and vegetables and did a short stint working in an abattoir. I only stayed in those jobs for exactly as long as it took to earn enough money to move on. The major employer in my little town is an abattoir, and I notice regularly the effects of monotonous, dehumanising work on the social abilities of those who are unfortunate enough to have to work there. We also experience seasonal influxes of fruit and vegetable pickers, who are only willing to do the work because they're usually itinerant and the seasons are relatively short.

Of course, the disgusting conditions under which these people work could be easily compensated for if the workers were offered good money for their labour, but unfortunately it seems that this is unsustainable under current market conditions. Hence the discursive space for the articulation of obnoxious ideas like the reinstatement of 'kanaka' labour to prop up our unsustainable agriculture.

Yabby,

I have employed people operating machinery, but I took great care not to take on people who did not really want to be there. It seems that around Katanning, the pool of willing workers must be too small to fill the abattoir's requirements. I have also, as an employee, worked long shifts involving continuous physical exertion under hot and at times primitive conditions in a factory floor situation. In a former life I was responsible, although admittedly not as an employer in the sense you mean, for work oversight of significant numbers of men who did not really want to be where they were. I think I have a good all-round perspective on the situation your industry is in.

To bring the discussion back to the topic, I think I have to advance the point CJMorgan, although describing, refrained from pushing as to the possibly unconscious racism implicit in the phrasing of the very topic itself. Why should it be that largely aboriginal recipients of welfare should be seen as the untapped labour source for the plantations? Yass suh, boss! As CJMorgan points out, many of these jobs are perceived as vile work that pays poorly. As such they are valuable as what amounts to 'punishment postings' for the shiftless layabouts from the totality of the Australian community that are in need of being physically separated from their illegal drugs and a paradigm shift in their outlook. Universal military service could well be the organizational vehicle capable of delivering those who show less than the required application, discipline and skill in the military arena to the workplace, dried out, shaken up, under supervision, on time, ready for work, in the certain knowledge that there exists a much less pleasant and rewarding alternative behind razor wire in a military corrective establishment if they don't shape up!

CJMorgan, perhaps a little tritely, also identifies your localized shortage of suitable labour as, effectively, purely a challenge to management innovation that has not yet been met. You and I know there is much more to it than that.

Actually, Forrest, I was referring to structural rather than local reasons that so many of our agricultural and horticultural industries have become uncompetitive in attracting labour. Since the removal of tariffs and the imposition of competition policy, the relatively paltry wages that agricultural industries can afford to pay are insufficiently lucrative to attract workers who are prepared to endure the unpleasant and arduous working conditions.

Coincidentally, during those 'youthful travels' I spent some time in the Katanning district in the 1970s, working as a farmhand on a medium-sized wheat, sheep and oats farm. In those days the local abbatoir (SMP?) used to employ significant numbers of Malays from Christmas Island - one spin-off being that I was delighted to find a delicious Malay restaurant in Katanning, of all places... I suppose that workers like those would be more likely to earn better money in other industries these days.

Somewhat closer to the topic, I also recall being astonished to find myself working alongside young Aboriginal men carting hay (the old way, with pitchforks). These guys were strong, fit and enthusiastic workers from nearby Gnowangerup, whom I discovered were getting paid exactly half the hourly rate that I was. When I asked my boss why, the reply was that they were blacks.

One can imagine the positive effect that this kind of discrimination had on their 'work ethic' - this was only in 1975! Of course, Aboriginal workers have never been exploited in Queensland, have they?

"I suppose that workers like those would be more likely to earn better money in other industries these days."

Actually thats not the problem, there are still plenty of Malays
working in Katanning. But the world and farming are changing. As
wool collapses and meat production grows, more workers are required.
The WA economy grew by 14% last year, driven by mining. People
can go work for the miners fly in fly out, sit on a machine for
80-100k a year. Why should they bother with agriculture?

The thing is, WA agriculture is highly efficient and in fact
quite sustainable. Our problem is getting products from the farms
to the wharves or airports efficiently. Bring a Chinese meatworker
here and they think they are in heaven, earning 40-50k a year,
something the locals turn their nose up about. If Aussies
don't want these jobs, why is the Fed Govt holding us up in
importing more overseas workers who actually want to work?

Just look at exports. Us 10% are producing 30%, so give us
a break please! After all its us who are helping the A$ not
become the Aussie peso.

Yabby,

It seems to me that folks on the right are all in favour of the free market when it benefits capital at the expense of labour, but not when it acts in the opposite direction, i.e., they want to have their collective thumb on the scales. The folks who benefit from the resources boom don't want to share the gains with those lower down in the food chain, by paying higher prices for their meat for example, so that the abbatoir can pay higher wages.

Some towns in the US such as Hazleton, Pennsylvania have been getting rid of their illegal immigrants with ordinances making life difficult for their employers and landlords. One such town in North Carolina had a chicken processing plant, and it was predicted that the plant would have to close down when the illegal immigrants left. After all, these are jobs that "Americans won't do". No such thing. The plant raised its wages by a dollar an hour so that they were above the wages paid by the local Walmart. They instantly got all of the local white and black citizen workers they wanted. Senator McCain (also in the US) foolishly told a hostile working class audience that they wouldn't pick lettuces for $50 an hour. His office was besieged with thousands of offers to do just that.

In the WA case, since the federal government has an interest in getting some of the 16% of the working age population that is currently on welfare off, it might be advised to cooperate with the abbatoir, by screening people in the areas of high unemployment to find those physically and psychologically suited to the work and then helping them with relocation costs and letting them keep more of their earnings.

Divergence, thanks for your post. Virtually all workers in Aus
are benefitting from the mining boom, as all are paid 9% of their
salaries in super. Those super funds would all own BHP, Woodside,
and other shares, on behalf of workers. Taxes to Govt means more
money for workers.

As to farming industries paying wages similar to miners, that
would be nice, but not realistic. International meat prices are
set by the marketplace, so its not about deciding to pay more for
meat. Much of that meat, such as mutton, actually goes to the
developing world. Wammco is a grower owned coop, no big capital
behind it.

The idea of screening people in other areas and sending them there
is all very nice, but in reality most people don't seem to want
to leave their friends and families and move across the country.
The labour shortage has been on for years, nothing has been done
for years, just talk. The meat industry needs some flexibility,
to deal with droughts etc. Perhaps its time that the Feds let
our industry operate at its potential capacity, rather then
hold it up with red tape. Carting sheep across Australia to
slaughter them, is neither a good thing for animal welfare, nor
very profitable for growers, when the freight absorbs much of
the animals value. WA farmers are once again the ultimate losers.

Yabby sounds like a complete fool. Immigrants are aspirational too, they won't accept menial jobs for ever. I know from very real experience that the children of the 'slave'type immigrants almost never follow in their parents footsteps, and are strongly encouraged by parents to get a 'cushy'job. Aussie born labourers are even told by immigrant workers to get a better job!

As for the hardworking immigrant stereotype, many are good actors. They know they are being exploited, and work when the boss is watching over them and chit chat when the boss is gone.

Employers are too short sighted to give a damn, and should never determine immigration policy.

Well Angelo, its quite simple. If Aussies don't want the jobs,
they won't let us bring in workers either, perhaps we are best
to simply get more boats, ship the whole lot offshore to get
processed. Simple really :) Just don't hold us back, whilst
we create export $, so that you can live your cushy lifestyles
and buy your plasma screens etc. There are good reasons
why the Aussie $ is not yet the Aussie peso, agriculture is
one of them. If we relied on cities, we would be in deep doodoo
and Keating would have been right about his banana republic.

Boy, are you right on the money Angelo! (In the Anglo/Celtic world your name would be "Evan", much the same, "the spreader of good news, or the messenger", in loose translation.) Like so many, Yabby wants an answer right NOW, ON THE SPOT! While there is much that he may justifiably be unhappy about, he is oh so typical of those who have rushed up to the boat deck only when the list of the ship of State made it uncomfortable on his ankles! In command of you, or under you command Angelo, Strength and Honour! Morituri te salutamis!

Yabby,
I am against bringing in imported workers, even on short term visas.

The mining industry found long ago that to attract good workers they had to pay good wages, and not all mine jobs are pleasant.

I think other industriea have not come to grips with paying higher wages. If they want workers they will have to pay enough to attract them. Have a look at the tinned fruit at your supermarket. I could only find two that are still made in Australia. (Golden Circle and Goulburn Valley). Everything else, including Coles brand was imported.

While ever the two major political parties continue along the globalism path, more and more will be imported. I don't like it at all, but that is reality. If local industries cannot afford good wages for our workers they will go out of business.

The only other avenue for those industries that employ workers to do arduous or unpleasant work is to get the government to implement tax concessions to make the work more attractive. I stated before that workers stopped picking fruit when they had to pay tax for their very hard work.

I shudder to think what will happen here if for some reason our shipping lanes are cut. Like China and Tiawan thowing rocks at each other. Our politicians of a bygone era, that worked for us to become self sufficient has had all their hard work destroyed by an idoelodgical theory of globalism that pretends we will all live happily ever after.

Banjo, you are free to be against using labour on short term
visas, but you have yet to state one good, valid reason.

The mining industry can pay higher wages, as in that field
Australia has a comparative advantage and mining can be
highly mechanised. 200 tonne dump trucks etc. Thats harder
to do in the meat industry. If the cost of labour is higher
then the carcass is worth on world markets, in the end
you won't have an industry.

Lets get real, if 50 Grand a year can't attract unskilled
labour to go and work in regional WA, then we have a
major problem. Then people simply have such cushy lifestyles
where they are, that they don't need the work.

Ok fair enough, but WA agriculture is by any benchmark
some of the most efficient farming in the world. It
also generates wealth for the rest of the country,
those living cushy lifestyles. If you want to sink
it by unreasonable laws, long term all those who
now have a cushy lifestyle will pay a heavy price.

We have few enough world competitive industries in
this country, just look at our trade balance. So
don't hold up those who do create the wealth and bring
it home.

The global economy is not going to go away, because
you wish it would. Meantime Aus has to pay its bills,
something which we are still not doing.

The meat industry, by the very nature of changing
climate, needs to be able to change according to
that climate. If it can't, we get exactly what
we have over East right now, farmers with their
hands out for drought help. Thats going to cost
you money in the end.

Importing labour, if Aussies don't want the jobs
at 50k, makes sense for the workers, makes sense for
the farmers, makes sense for the welfare of animals.
It also makes sense for the Australian economy
and taxpayers. Politics is all thats holding
it up, but few are intelligent enough to see the
big picture.

Yabby,
Whilst I agree with some of the things you say, i do not agree that workers need to be imported.

The wages paid to imported workers mainly go out of the country. I maintain that all the wages paid would be better if kept in Australia. Even if no tax is paid on them in the first instance.

According to other posts here, nothing like $50000 is paid to agricultural workers and tax and accomadation,etc.has to come from that. I don't care if the jobs go to black or white Australians.

I do not know what abattoir workers get at present, but they have a reputation for paying well. The pay and conditions will just have to be better.

Also the jobless rate is far higher than is shown, as alittle part time workers are shown as employed.

This is not a contest between WA and other states. There are mining operations here that compete for available labour. If the bottom falls out of minerals then the mines will shut down. Can you see the miners accepting lower wages?

If agriculture is prepared to pay decent wages, or the workers get tax incentives and better conditions, they will get the labour they need. Employers need to find other ways of cutting costs.

In my previous comments on this thread, I certainly wasn't casting aspersions on the practices, ethics or efficiency of our farmers. Rather, I was attempting to point out the simple fact that their big problem in attracting labour, both on their farms and in secondary industries like abbatoirs, is quite simply that they don't pay enough. Labour is relatively scarce at the moment, and people are less likely to do crap work for very ordinary money.

At my local abbatoir - which processes sheep and goats - the average rate for semi-skilled workers is around $20.00 per hour. Workers often do extra hours (at the standard rate), and once or twice a year the plant shuts down for a week or two, supposedly because of shortages of stock.

In the last year or so, we've seen an influx of Sudanese immigrants, who are mostly very happy to work at the same rates as the others. Unfortunately, there is little accommodation and absolutely nothing in the way of support services for these good people - other than that which those of us who run businesses etc in the town provide.

Probably partly because they aren't seen to be doing anybody out of work (and are in general quite delightful, honest and hardworking people), there have been virtually no problems that I have seen in their accommodation in our small town. Yes, there's been a little bit of racism at the meatworks, but I think it's quite remarkable just how well our community has accommodated the unprecedented influx of substantial numbers of very ummm... BLACK... Sudanese people in our midst.

As I said, by and large these people seem very happy to do the work that many Australians apparently won't.

Here's a thought: Maybe we ahould increase our refugee intake?

"If agriculture is prepared to pay decent wages, or the workers get tax incentives and better conditions, they will get the labour they need. Employers need to find other ways of cutting costs."

You are free to be dogmatic about that, but the workers are simply
not there, in a place like WA. In fact, lets take your example
further, lets say wages spiral upwards, far beyond productivity.
Many industries which you depend on for your wellbeing, would
close down, inflation spirals upwards, interest rates spiral
upwards, workers would be the biggest losers.

Is 20$ a hour a fair amount for unskilled labour? Plus 9%
super etc, in the end it adds up about 25$ a hour. If those
export industries which can't compete with the present mining
boom, cannot compete and shut down, where will your jobs be
when the present mining/housing boom ends?

My point is we need some urgent, short term solutions, to take
the pressure off things, or in the end everyone loses. When
interest rates go up next due to rising inflation, everyone
paying a mortgage, will lose for instance.

The meat industry is an industry that needs to be able to respond
to climate, govts can't legislate for rainfall. The best way
to do that, is flexibility with labour. Banjo, you have yet
to say if you are against foreign aid. If you are for helping
those in poorer countries, why do you want to deny them an
income, by taking some wages back to their countries?

Obviously it is more convenient for employers to simply import foreigners, particularly if they already have the necessary skills. There may be quite genuine labour shortages in particular areas. However, real unemployment rates are very much higher than what the government trumpets, close to 17% according to an article in the Sydney Morning Herald a few months ago. Many of these people and their families helped to build this country and were drafted to fight in places like Vietnam. It seems to me that mutual obligation cuts both ways and that these people (including any refugees that we take) should be offered any jobs that are going first rather than having foreigners hired over their heads.

It would be quite possible for the federal government to screen people to find suitable workers and then give them help so that they could go to WA to work for a trial period without burning their bridges at home. (Otherwise, how is an unemployed person in Wollongong, say, to pay for transportation to WA? What if the job doesn't work out?) If both the new employee and his employer are happy at the end of the trial period, he gets a permanent job, and the government then helps him relocate his family. If there is a case for government assistance to an industry then employees could be given tax relief, to make relatively low wages more attractive. The assertion that no one, without exception, would be willing to move away from family or friends needs to be tested before we even think of bringing in foreign workers.

The question "would aborigines work even if they were offered the jobs?" is a ridiculus statement in its self. Aboriginal people do work across all sectors. They are doctors, lawyers, teachers, nurses, police officers, public servants, hospitality workers and performing artists, there are also those who are cleaners, garderners, carers AND 'fruit pickers'. I wonder if Helen and the other fourm members who seem to think this is a good idea have ever picked fruit themselves, I'd imagine the majority have not! When we think about 'real jobs' for Aboriginal people perhaps we should include ALL those non-Aboriginal people sitting on welfare who have also 'chosen' not to work in the 'real world'

Sparkles, good points there.

But we must concentrate and listen to the resident OLO experts Yabby and Leigh.

They know and see all on behalf of Aboriginal people. They have spent most of their lives living and working with Aboriginal people and communities, learning their customs and traditions, even being adopted as 'one of them'.

I'm told they earnt multiple anthropological, political, science and economics degrees from Harvard and Oxford. [Where did they get the time to do that!]

Apparently Leigh’s skin name is "Watawanka"

Yabby's is "Wannabe Wannabe"

Moreover, they have conducted extensive studies on Aboriginal engagement in the labour market, lobbied for reforms in welfare policy and visited every Aboriginal community in Australia. This research forms the basis for their insights and proclamations here on OLO.

The Australian financial review reported that they could be earning heaps overseas or for the UN but choose to remain here in Australia - informing legislators and policy makers and advising Ministers for Aboriginal affairs in each state and territory.

Their reputations are indisputably extensive, comprehesive and professional.

That they have seen fit to provide us their insights here on OLO is a blessing.

We should be grateful.

Just ask them!

"Yabby's is "Wannabe Wannabe""

ROFL Rainier. Actually Yabby simply makes his rational arguments,
you are free to prove him wrong, based on your ability to reason.
Ad hominem arguments simply mean that you don't have an answer
to the arguments :)

I frankly don't care if you are the Queen or Paul Keating, we
all stand all fall by the reasoning of our postings, all very simple!

Divergence, there is a scheme paying 5000$ for people to move
interstate etc. The point is that some of these jobs have been
open for a few years. Fact is that Aussies can choose to work or
not, choose to move or not. Many simply do not want to leave friends
and family for a job. Fair enough.

Meantime the WA economy surges ahead at 14% growth, as people flock
to the mining industry. Hundreds of thousands of animals are carted
across the country to be slaughtered, at huuuuge expense. Doesent
make alot of sense for anyone. The meat industry, due to varying
rainfall, will always have some seasonal component, Govts can't
legislate for rainfall. So the solution is obvious.

Yes give Aussies jobs first. But if all else fails, use overseas
contract labour, on a seasonal basis. Not everyone wants to live here. Many would be happy to do a season or whatever, then take
their money home and live where their family and friends are,
so its a win-win situation. Meantime we lose exports, farmers
lose heaps amounts of money as everyone conemplates their navels
over this one. Why should they, when its a win-win situation
for all? Europe has been doing this stuff for 40 years, with
huge success