Andrew, I think the doctor is paging you.

Thank God. Thank Peter. The real earthy gritty, friend of wine drinkers, prostitutes and flute players comes out in what you say. This is not the picture of a comfortable middle class nice person who wants us and him to be respectable.

This is someone who wants us to be the best we can for ourselves and others, taking us at where we are and moving us to do better things.

The Jesus of today would have been asking what David Hicks or Naura and other Immigration detainees are doing behind razor wire. This is not only an affront to Human and Christian values, mores, morals, it is deeper: Christian values are Human and humane values.

Boaz

You're entirely welcome. And thanks for yours as well.

mjpb
"Others would struggle with His building a Church on Peter after a trilogy of sin."

TurnRightThenLeft
"BTW can anyone point out where jesus approved of the church as an institution? I thought his whole rap was about god and the individual sharing a personal relationship, without need for intermediaries."

It always amazes me that people never see the irony in Jesus' proclamation to Peter: that he would be the rock on which he would build his church; probably said with a chuckle in his voice at the time.

Jesus was a master of irony. He undestood Peter was a Jewish [scriptural] literalist and didn't know how to interpret the world just as it is, ever-changing. As Jesus intended to undermine fixed religion (it was the primary cause of oppression), Peter, believing himself to be following the teachings of Christ, would build it up again. This must have been an endless point of amusement to Jesus.

Jesus never intended to build a church - As TRTL states, Jesus pointed the way to understanding one's own heart - not following blindly the warped interpretations of others. Peter was a classic example of the latter. Jesus knew that Peter would take his teaching literally rather than making decisions in the moment based on the evidence in front of one's own nose. To do anything else is to pre-judge a situation. The good hearted always know how to do the right thing, without having to turn to books or the self-righteous proclamations of others. Jesus WAS a kindhearted anarchist. He made the best of every situation he came across - providing the most peaceful solution to every conflict he was confronted with. Peace between men was his only motive. Whatever was needed to achieve this (in a multitude of different situations) is what he offered. Its what most good, right thinking people do everyday, "naturally".

Kevin.... Jesus did indeed intend to build a church...but before you leap on me like a Mongoose on a Cobra.. let me explain.

"Church"= Ekklesia in greek and primarily means 'congregation' ...i.e. the people. The 'congregation' is that body of people living under the kingship of God.

I will enthusiastically agree on one aspect of your point. I don't believe Jesus had specifically in mind a huge bureaucratic organization, (such as RC and Anglican and Lutheran) but clearly that is one possible outcome and even a valid form of the Kingdom, as long as it is simply the way that group organizes itself and does not claim to be the 'only' legitimate manifestation of the Kingdom.

Jesus said. "if the world hates you, know that it has hated me first"

Westy is a good example of this syndrome.

To some, Jesus was indeed immoral, he threatened their positions and privilege. But ill founded perceptions based on self interest and greed or immoral life goals, are no basis on which to understand Him.

I have always struggled to believe in God.
To my mind, faith is nothing more than unsubstantiated superstition.
I think all of us are born with an innate belief that we are part of something greater than ourselves. Some of us are happy to just accept this. Others, we call scientists or philosophers, have to explore or attempt to explain the feeling; to understand why they feel the way they do, and if it can be proven.
If they fail, they become atheists, or agnostics.
My epiphany came from reading and participating in these forums.
It seemed inexplicable to me that one God could be defined in so many ways, but now I understand.
We listen to God in exactly the same way that we listen to each other.
We only hear what we want to hear, or what we are capable of hearing.
And we are all prisoners of our own preconceptions.