Boaz and to any one else - A man with out a job is still a man - if work were its own reward we would all work for nothing.

I am not defined - at least by myself - by what I work at - we all know eminent people who might otherwise be defined by their job and who would be ,under those terms, highly thought of but in reality are low life scum bags - both men and women - some of work to live not live to work.

and as for the litany of social ques - I disagree - as folows

We open a door for a female, and are told not be chauvenist ? Still do it and dont care what any one thinks - I even do it for manly men

We give up our seat for a female... and we are looked at weird - as above - I can stand for bloody ages and it makes no ddfference to me who sits

We walk on the 'road' side of the pavement with our female friend (so we cop the splashes not them) still do it

We love to be told 'ooh.. strong man' when we shift something very heavy. Dont care what they say

We expend ourselves and spill our guts on the battle field, in gut wrenching hand to hand combat and are told 'women can do this also' when we know they cannot. - yes they can and do -

Those things are social constructs. They are little more than banging some bitch over the head and dragging her arse back to the cave in their symbolism - that is what this clap trap about masculinity is all about - and those who miss the old ways - masculinity is testosterone laced code for - letting them know who is the boss.

As for letting the girlies blossom in home related enterprises - give me a break - the problem with letting women into board rooms andpolitics and other positions of power is that most of them emulate MEN

Sneeky...

"Social Constructs"... amen brutha.. exACTLY !

That's my point. 'Social Constructs'=Culture.

The specific examples I gave are not really that accurate, just a means to an end to discuss....

But the key point is......those social constructs.

We can easily 'say' a man without a job is still a man.. or course he is, but he may well "feel" useless, and that is the key to it.

For me, my personal experience has always been to define myself OUTside of our culture. I am what I am 'In Christ' so in once sense I and those who share my experience are possibly more robust than a non faith person. I say that because we know that whatever our circumstances, God does love us, and we believe He is working out our lives for His Glory. One closed door is another open one...'in Him'

But for those who are without living faith, who's whole identity is reliant on their cultural position.. just like the Yir Yuront, they are vulnerable, and many end up in tragic circumstances of homelessness and alcoholism.

I hope we can discover these things

Faith (in Christ)
Family (re-discover the extended family)
Friendship (do for others as we would have them do for us)

in that order, then we will have the final 'f'... a future :)

Men are what society has defined men to be. There is an isue of liberation and it is separate to, and cannot be examined through, feminism.

As I see it, this present thread has skated (skirted?!) around the issue of masculinity.

Men choke up and are at a loss for words when trying to discuss the hollowness and sense of futility that many experience in life. It is as though they are not used to talking about their own needs, drives and aspirations. They are automatons, with a self-limiting socialisation so hard-wired into their psyche that it is impossible to even contemplate thinking outside the square.

If men cannot address their own self-limiting beliefs, what hope is there for the many, many boys who are obviously suffering out there, discussing last evenings self-harm and thoughts of suicide?

The 'manginas' can contribute nothing to this debate and nor can the red-neck dinosaurs who are rooted in the fifties.

Cornflower, these men that you say suffer such a sense of futility etc, need to get off their collective backsides and DO something. It doesnt have to be something big - go and mow the lawn for gods sake. The less time sitting aruond thinking, the less chance to get depressed. You might call me uncaring and you might call me a redneck (just dont call me a dinosaur - I'm not old enough), but action is a great bandaid for mental pain. Of course its preferable to do something vaguely constructive otherwise you will tend to feel worse about yourself. Go and volunteer to unload donation bins for Vinnies or something. Something physical (being able to feel the strain on your body seems to be a better anitdote than straining your mind only), that helps either yourself or others, and that you'll feel good about looking back on. Those boys self-harming need a good kick up the backside, dragged out into the sunlight, throw out the Xbox and the TV, disconnect the computer and make them DO something. Everyone knows that teenagers (I assume this is the group you are talking about) are self-destructive creatures at the best of times. If you give them something to rebel against (ie you throwing out the Xbox), you'll goad them into caring. Short-term pain for long term gain.

So many of these people don't even know what they are talking about.
Latham was comparing the tough, maybe rough masculinity of yesterday with the very different world of today.

Surely any intelligent woman is a feminist, isn't she? Why wouldn't you support people who support your own sex?

As for the men, the bleatings of the so-called mens rights people are so pathetic you wouldn't give them a sick cockroach to look after.

Guys wake up to yourselves and look at where you are today. Up the creek, mainly. !

I don't get that impression of men's help groups. Have a look at the Men's Health and Wellbeing (Brisbane) site (I have no connection with it):

http://www.mhwaq.org.au/

This quote from the site is apt:

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn’t do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." Mark Twain