Thanks for that summary Ted.

Just to widen the scope, here's a bird's-eye of the underlying geopolitics. The map of the oilfields is a clue:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=CHO20060904&articleId=3147

We all have a vested interest in our own way.

Cheers...

I don't share your enthusiasm about Hezbollah's support base fracturing, as no doubt their vile Islamist propoganda is already in full swing.

What I truly don't understand about Israel is why end it? It's been clear to me for some time that most of world opinion is against Israel, only because such people don't understand that Israel is the main front for the Jihadist war of Islamic imperialism.

I would urge Iran's reactors be taken out immediately, and even for a full scale occupation of this most bigoted, intolerant, region, obviously with western troops.

I've often wondered how it is that buildings could be bombed, where Hezbollah fighters were, which no doubt did kill civilians (although most likely Hezbollah supporters, which makes them different to the western meaning of the word) yet see Lebanese cheering with yellow flags minutes later.

But then, that's expecting rationality from people who are brainwashed to believe Jews are to blame.

Populist politics, in the true meaning of the word, from blistering purple necks (not rednecks) who blame outsiders for their problems, numerous and many.

As for Hezbollah, I believe this stupid notion of bringing democracy to the racist middle-east will backfire, as it did with Hamas.

The victim Palestinians, who overwhelmingly voted in a party on the guise that it's main objective is to genocide Israeli's? I view Palestinians as deposed royalty than victims now, intolerant, arrogant, and maniacal.

I also believe that Israel should have bombed both Syria & Iran, given these cowards orchestrate the attacks from the safety of their nations.

I was surprised the Lebanese didn't react furiously, after their nation had been bombed to oblivion, when the Iranian bigot Admenijad said, when Israel had commented that Syria might be next, that any attack on Syria will be an attack on the whole Islamic world.

That must have made the Lebanese feel two inches tall!

Excellent article, need more of them

Fair comment from Ted Lapkin, as always. Israel has certainly prosecuted military action far better in the past.

Ideally, Hezbollah would have been wiped out; but Israel's inability to do it in short time, with consequent loss of too many civilian lives, necessitated a cease fire.

Sadly, the UN stuffed that up, as they usually do, and there is no requirement for Hezbollah to disarm. The idiots are running around claiming victory over Israel, and are using the inevitably short 'peace' to re-arm and attack Israel again in the near future

Oh well the propaganda war continues with as little truth as ever but lots of emotion. Our Football Team!
Okay Hezbollah underestimated the Zionist temper. After all if someone has imprisoned your people and refuses to abide by previous exchange provisions, collaring some of theirs as exchange pieces in the bargaining might seem worthwhile.
Go back to the diaries of Moshe Sharett the second prime minister of Israel (see www.geocities.com/alabasters_archive/sacred_terror.html?20062
And find particularly in chapter five the reason “let us Create a Maronite State in Lebanon then check out 1978, 1982, 1993 and following.
Israel of course argues it is the threatened party. Sharett’s diary makes clear that from the beginning Israel was to be territorially expanded.
Who is guilty of what is not clear but with the geopolitics of the region such is not likely. Obedience to the security Council, a matter of much weight when to our own advantage is ignored often with the help of the veto. See the UN Security council.
Desire for power and territory, water and security drive the parties with an element of being the chosen people added to the dispute over the land of three religions.

The rewriting of history is alive and well in Big Ted's hands.

If Hezbollah "ignited" anything it was a border incident. It took Israel to turn that into a blitzkreig against Lebanon. Nasrallah's observation that "We did not think that there was a 1% chance that the capture would lead to a war of this scale & magnitude" merely indicates that he forsaw nothing more than a rerun of the 2004 prisoner exchange between Israel and Hezbollah.

No reasonable human being could possibly have envisioned "the scale and magnitude" of the lunatic and bloody rampage unleashed by the Israelis on Lebanon, especially in light of the deterrent effect of Hezbollah's missiles. Israel's wholly disproportionate response to what was essentially just a border incident is an indication, I believe, that Israel's descent into madness is all but complete.

As for Nasrallah's "belligerent declarations of readiness 'for open war'": if 'open war' is what Israel has presented you with, then it stands to reason: you'd better be ready. I bet the Lebanese government is wishing it had had a protective missile defence system in place against Israeli air strikes.

Re Hezbollah's reconstruction effort: if there were any justice on this planet, this would be paid for by Israel and the Americans.

When the international, independent investigations into Israel's war crimes in Lebanon bear fruit, I expect we'll see BT at the cyberbarricades, dutifully defending the indefensible.

I'm not sure what the predictable comments by a representative of a discredited organisation have to add to serious debate on this issue.

Lapkin says "But this sudden largesse - which everyone knows comes directly from the coffers of Hezbollah's patrons in Teheran". This is easy to assert but is there proof? Even if true, anything provided by Iran would be miniscule compared to the funds and weapons Israel receives from the US.

The Lebanese people will determine their response to Hezbollah, not Israel and hangers on such as Lapkin. I have no doubt that at the next election in Lebanon, Hezbollah candidates will dominate.

Yeah good point Benjamin, bomb syria and Iran, Iraq, Yemen, Saudi Arabia

Umm, while were at it lets take out Central Asia, just full of Muslims too.

Lets not forget Indonesia, Malaysia, Lakemaba HELL LETS KILL EM ALL.

You are a moron mate, and if world war 3 starts tomorrow, I'm gonna blame people like you, not Bush or Blair or Howard, YOU.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14882.htm

I just found this very interesting article by Jonathon Cook in Jerusalem - think Teddy boy should read it.

Now for some questions for Ted.

1. Have you bothered to notice Seymour Hersh's article that this invasion and demolition of Lebanon had been in the planning for over a year and if so what do you have to say about it?
2. When you were in the IDF in South Lebanon during the 1980's did you help to recruit the christian phalangists as collaborators to kill muslims and Lebanese people, are you old enough to have been involved in the massacres in Shatila and Sabra?
3. Just what do the politics of Lebanon or Palestine have to do with Israel? Are you so important to the world that you can be the dictators of the ME with the support of the moron Bush?
4. I know you will deride and denigrate anyone who disagrees with you Ted, but guess what? I am impervious to your criticism so perhaps you could just answer my questions and read the article posted.

It is an interesting read for someone who wants to claim that the Hezbollah used Lebanese civilians for human shields. Actually Ze'ev Schiff wrote a piece in Haaretz last week stating that most of the rockets fired from Lebanon were fired from fixed positions near the border and not from the towns and villages.

Amnesty Internationals report states the same thing. I am tired of this lunatic anti-arab tripe being peddled here in Australia - we should be neutral but point out the mistakes of our friends.

Sorry Ted, you speak drivel and should go back to Israel to protect her from the evil doers.

Tsk, tsk, Marilyn. Big Ted should go back to Israel? And make the place even more right wing than it already is? No, BT should remain here where he can do less harm.

Marilyn I hope you read my post above Sharett it was long planned 1955.

Dismissed as left wing Arab lover? Seems to be the method.

But proof that such geopolitical designs exist and that as Sharett shows information provided is deceptive, jut think of the latest Iraq. This is so slow I cannot go back to check but did I cite Mark Danner and his way to secret war? This is about Government document UK, not denied, showing the propaganda was fixed to make the case. We was conned! And still are being.
To change the tack a little all the hype is about Islamic terrorists, our treasurer even going so far, well I suppose not far at all for he mealy mouths American or Bush platitudes.

Yet the only analysis I have so far found is by Robert Pape Prof of political science University Chicago. Meaning that not that it is true, these days deception is universal but that the remnants of honest Scholarship remaining and recognising the book has almost certainly been reviewed by his peers the probability is that its facts are near correct.
Anyway he finds that the majority of suicide attacks are not Islamic but those in or originating from Ceylon Sri Lanka that most were rebelling against occupation of lands they see as theirs and that although religion is part of the story other factors are more important. Hizbollah is of course from one strand of Islam but Christians are included as well as Sunni.
What happens when and of course if, we all, not jut me, stop believing our leaders?

Marilyn

Why should Seymour Hersh's article carry more weight than Ted Lapkin's?

At least Lapkin's article is devoid of cheap abusive comments which suggests a more reasoned approach. And it is much better written. And frankly the arguments of any one who uses Zionism in a loaded negative way as a substitute term for Israel should be treated with some care.

The fact that Seymour Hersh can live in Israel and write such articles suggest a high degree of tolerance in Israeli society. Can you show me some similar anti Muslim activity articles written by journalists living in any other Middle Eastern country?

And yes there is a lot of negative criticism about Arabs and Muslims in this country but there is equally anti Israeli criticism.

Sorry I meant to refer to Jonathon Cook's article and not Seymour Hersh.

“But whenever Hezbollah fighters engaged in close-quarters combat with Israeli troops, they lost - badly.”

I’m really beginning to wonder who Mr. Lapkin thinks he’s lying to. For a very good account of close quarters fighting from a couple of journalists who actually went to southern Lebanon (as opposed to an armchair spin-doctor who works for a Zionist think-tank), click here: http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/article.php?article_id=9519

“But the Israeli army is both flexible and smart. The tactical lessons are already being assimilated through the chain of command. Olmert has promised an enhanced appropriations bill that will allow the defence force to bring its reserve units up to scratch.”

Where’s he been! Not one officer has resigned or taken responsibility for the conduct of the war.

As someone who has had the opportunity to see Israeli soldiers close-up, their humiliation in Lebanon came as no surprise to me. For the last forty years they have lived off the reputation won for them by their grandfathers in the Six Day War, while contenting themselves with victories won over untrained Palestinian youths armed with rusting Kalashnikov’s, stones and petrol bombs. A colonial police force, whose officers spend their time checking ids at checkpoints, kicking down doors in the middle of the night and enforcing curfews, should not be surprised when it finds itself outfought by a lightly-armed but well trained guerrilla force.

The only part of the IDF that performed efficiently throughout the war was the Air Force, which had developed its doctrine of using state of the art guided weapons to bomb civilian infrastructure and inflict collective punishment during the second Intifada.

Mr. Lapkin’s apologetics might provide some comfort to his colleagues in the Australia/Israel Jewish Affairs Council but they should not be taken seriously by people who believe in the principle of cause and effect.

It's a bit like Chinese whispers. The way people become convinced of something.

Take my grandmother for example. She's lived in Australia for 56 years, watches the news, reads the newspaper, votes for John Howard and thinks that:

Get ready for it…

Hezbollah is not Lebanese. Hezbollah is Iranian.

But even thinking this she still hates Israel. I think that's a key point here. No matter what anyone can tell you about Israel's actions, you can’t deny the truth. The 1982 invasion of Lebanon signified a huge change for Israeli society. It's when public opinion began to change. It's when people began to see tangible proof of Israeli's aggression - a turning point for many.

I feel for the Israelis. They are sheltered from the truth and indoctrinated with hatred against the Arabs. Most of them sit idly by wondering why these people hate them. They wonder why extreme leftists are talking about an indigenous population that used to live on their land prior to settlement (that's hard to hear after "a land with no people for a people with no land").

But as they say "once you see, you cannot un-see". If there's any hope for Israel it'll be when the Israelis wake up to themselves, realise the atrocities committed in their name and do something constructive about it because the government sure as hell won't.

As for Hezbollah…they may initially have been funded, set up and trained by Iran. But they are a resistance movement designed to drive Israel out of their country.

Had it not been for Iran helping the Lebanese then it’s most likely the Lebanese would be living behind barbed wire fences, tanks and curfews just like their brothers and sisters in the West bank and Gaza.

Don’t think the Christians would be any better off either. They may not live in fear like their Muslim counterparts but once the Jewish settlements start pouring in, demolishing their villages, causing mass genocides etc. they may start to sympathise somewhat.

Of course this may never happen.

But only because Hezbollah has the tenacity to say no.

I think Israel sent a message to H/O, via Hezbollah. That message was that Iran can't afford to miscalculate in its sabre rattling so colourfully engaged in by its President/Mahdi. The message is that Israel won't go into committee phase if attacked. It will strike hard.

PartRea 1 N

Countdown

Ted Lapkin’s rather simplistic title re’ current ME troubles, and his rather one-sided thesis supporting Israel’s attack on Lebanon, has been met by 30 commentaries so far about 50% each way giving good arguments for and against. Further, they do give proof how much our faltering thinking world needs to arrange a major overview of the whole ME situation.

World historians if they are still allowed an ethical point of view, must surely call our present global situation, one very much influenced by a new version of 19th century type colonialism, with America now as the leading light instead of Great Britain, with Blair of Britain and Howard of Australia, trailing along with the US and making up an interesting Anglipholic imperialist threesome, which surely must have even the non-English-speaking Western world concerned somewhat, and nations like Russia, China and India, understandably plotting behind the scenes.

Who would blame them for it, with Iran likely to be attacked and taken, angry Shias only able to defend themselves using the same suicidal means as the Shias and the Sunnis in Iraq, as well as the Tamils in Sri-Lanka, against a hated oppressor.

Not a very nice future picture. In fact, historians might suggest it is time for our ethical future planners to do an overview of the current Middle East situation, and maybe contemplate a Bismarkian-style balance of power situation, even allowing Iran militarily nuclear capacity to balance Israel, as now exists between India and Pakistan. What we have now in the Middle East, is one tiny nation like Israel fully confident with US backing and with its atomic rockets at the ready as long as Iran cannot be armed the same.

Part Two

Returning to the colonialistic or imperialist principle, it is understandable that future global historians in a hoped for democratic world
would surely rely on the premise of looking back on a world of the late 20th century and early 21st century, which though having periods of peaceful global democracy, had unfortunately slipped back into the mindset of 19th century gunboat diplomacy, only needing a new name for the missile diplomacy we now have under the present US imperialism, possibly a bit benign at present, but very scary when we survey the already publicised Project for an American 21st century.

In the above Project surely Israel is already regarded as an ally who will help shape our future world. Such probable planning went on when Israel under US protection began her atomic installataions even before 1980, as well as having the US backed bravado to take out the beginnings of Saddam Hussein’s projected Iraqi nuclear works in the early 1980s.

The present horrible historical debacle will doubtless be regarded as far worse than the twin nemesises of WW1 and WW2, because religion is so heavily involved - as can be seen by so many of our OLO commentaries. Therefore it is necessary for us thinkers to ponder on a more peaceful way out like another possible Marshal Plan, offering financial help to all battling Muslim nations, as well as along with the Sri--Lankan Tamils. For example, the 200 billion that George W’ Bush has already spent trying to appease Iraqis, might have been far better spent that way.

Fleurette

I hope you don't live in Australia. You would have a conscience living in a land which was taken from the indigenous inkabitants and settled by foreigners with guns.

And at least there were Jews in Israel prior to 1788. And I am not talking about those that were there during the Roman Empire, I am talking about later immigrants arriving during the Caliphate and the Otterman Empires.

In fact you will also have sympathy for the Copts in Egypt - pushed out by Arab invasions and encouraged to leave - ask some of them what they think. And the Jews who entered Iran and Iraq when these ancient lands were called Persia and Babylon and were still there in the middle of the 20th Century. Many of them have fled to Israel after some ghastly experiences. Have they a right to start a resistance movement to claim their historic rights and the houses which they had to leave.? How would you recommend they do this? Or did they do the sensible thing in moving on and getting a life.

And of course don't forget the German populations pushed out of Poland. And can you tell me why Christians, recently a majority in Lebanon are now outnumbered by Muslims. Had this anything to do with emigration? Ask some of them.

Once Egypt and Jordan stopped attacking Israel they were left alone, Israel at least has a good track record in that respect.

The usual, tired Zionist finger pointing exercise from illogic: you think we're bad, look at this or that lot, all 'issues' about which you know nothing and care even less, unless they can be used as a smokescreen for the latest Israeli acts of bastardry.

Big Ted wrote the usual AIJAC propaganda piece about Lebanon. Care to defend the carpet bombing of that land, the 100,000 cluster bomblets strewn all over the south (much of it after the announcement of a ceasefire), the ongoing, sadistic strangulation of the Gazans, maybe the Israeli study that found Israelis had a far higher regard for Nasrallah's honesty than that of their own spindoctors?

No? I thought not.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/760138.html

Logic, here are some of Big Ted's buddies at work, aren't they nice? This is exactly what the IDF have been doing for decades with the cheer squad of the west egging them on. I saw a film on SBS tonight of how they reacted though when they were fired on by Hezbollah - didn't have a clue what to do and ran away.

Logic, Jonathan Cook is reporting from Nazareth, Lapkin is a former part of the problem.

Perhaps you don't know he was with the Jewish Lobby in the US, now here after he was in the IDF in Lebanon during their first invasion.

He has not answered a single question about his role - that is did he used planagists to murder Palestinian refugees? Did he help to create the Hezbollah? Did he help to deport the Palestinians to Tunis?

If Ted wants to spin his tripe he should spin it to people incapable of reading.

Now he and Julie Bishop are getting all hysterical about a book claiming that the US and Israel are terrorist states. Go figure.

Marilyn

I'm wearying of your (and Strewth's)constant bias and selective history about the Sabra and Shatila executions.

I promise.. every time you mention them, if I see it I will equalize the playing field by mentioning the GENOCIDE AT DAMOUR carried out in 1976 by the Palestinians. 500+ Christians murdered, and 25,000 ethnically cleansed. Were those christians in any way like the PLO military support structures inherrant in Sabra and Shatila ? I don't recall any Christian leader claiming as Arafat did "Every Palestinian is a fighter... Men,women and children" Of course.. the many images of 3 yr old Palestinian boys on their fathers shoulders with toy AK47's don't exactly detract from this portrayal.

The Palestinians IN those camps were there because they were driven there by the Jordanians who were sick of them murdering Jordanians and trying to TAKE OVER the State.

The idea that the Palestinian women and children are 'innocent' is ludicrous. The men cannot exist or replace lost fighters without them.
The Palestinians in those camps, whether men women or children, were just as culpable as the men who slaughtered the children and grannies in Damour. Its just that 'their time' had not yet come.
If you think 'Women' are not just as evil and brutal as men, read about Walid Jumblatts grandfathers sister who supervised and rejoiced over one of the early massacres of Maronites by their Druze fighters. circa 1860

So, the Phalangists who attacked Sabra and Shatila.. geee.. maybe just MAYBE many of them had to bury their children and grandparents hacked to pieces after being raped by the Palestinians....

The POINT in all this, is that as much as you accuse 'Big Ted' of being 'zionist this and biased that..and spin the other thing' .. you and Strewth are just as guilty.

Bottom line, history will sort itself out there, and I absolutely guarantee one thing. No matter which way it goes, there will be those who feel totally pissed off with the outcome and will use force to try to change it......life goes on.

B_D
Please explain why the Palestinians were in Jordan and not in Palestine. Could it be that they were driven out of their homes to enable the Israelis to take over.

DB you are a crashing bore when you bring this religious tripe into everything.

Now lets get down to the three year olds with guns in Palestine. Gee, I am so shocked.

My own father, uncles, brother, and every boy in every place I have ever lived has toy guns, they play cowboys and indians, they brandish them at passersby.

Not in Palestine but here. You need to stop being so one sided for christians and be a bit more balanced. No killing is a good thing but christians don't seem to have any problem at all in slaughtering children, babies, anyone as long as they do it from the cowardly distance of 35,000 feet from a bomber or as in Haditha and dozens of other places in Iraq in their own homes - and then cover it up.

The massacres at Shatila and Sabra were particularly a heinous crime because the IDF used christian Lebanese people to murder innocent Palestinian refugees under the eye of Ariel Sharon.

Did you know DB that one of these phalangist creeps came to Australia claiming to be a refugee from persecution because of his role in these massacres and was allowed to live freely in the community for some 14 years without being charged but at the same time we locked up Palestinian babies, some born here, on the basis that their parents dared to be refugees who could not go home to Gaza?

The article by Gideon was a statement of facts as he saw them - you should try reading the Haaretz talkback where, like you, they blame the victims.

Logic,

I am vehemently opposed to colonialism of any sort, including Australia.

I don’t understand why you bring up the presence of Jews in Israel prior to 1788. There have been Jews all around the world for many centuries now and they’re doing pretty fine to me. Why should they have a state at the expense of millions of Palestinians?

Every policy carried out by Israel is to keep the Jews a majority and the Arabs a minority. Whether it’s symbolic in that they have no legitimate voice, identity, past or land to call their own – or whether it be in the ratio of Jews to Arabs. It is estimated that with the significantly higher birth rate among Palestinians, eventually they will outnumber the Jews- a threat no Israeli wants to face. Thus every action is to keep the Palestinians a silent minority.

Jews in Iran are living peacefully to this day. In fact most religious Orthodox Jews claim that the idea of a Jewish state is preposterous and use the Jews in Iran as a perfect example that this perceived “threat” to the Jews is concocted by Israeli PR.

Let’s get one thing straight. No one fled to Israel. They were welcomed in with open arms and told that they would have property and land at their disposal.

“Moving on and getting a life”

As I said above, Jews who apparently “fled” were welcomed in with open arms and took the land that did not belong to them.

The 750,000 Palestinians who were expelled from Palestine in 1948 were not given the same welcome particularly in Jordan where thousands of them were slaughtered by the Jordanian king. Not to mention the massacres of Palestinian refugees in Lebanon by the Christian militias. The rest of them have never been allowed to return.

Quite possibly you can attribute the majority Muslim population in Lebanon to a larger birth rate.

If Israel wants security on its northern borders it has shown the way by sowing the area on the other side of the border with cluster bombs. Of course if the missiles fired by Hezbollah had been similarly armed the reaction of Israel would have been even more incandescent than it was.

Of course Israel didn't go far enough, but I will get to that point a little later.

Israel had the choice between trying to negotiate with the elected government of Lebanon to try to get its captured troops back, or to act the way it did.

It tried trading the lives of 1000 dead Lebanese, with many more wounded, for the return of two Israeli soldiers. And it didn't work. No-one ever thought that it would.

So, what will Israel need for the security of its Northern border? It should act true to its colours - it has already shown that it is willing to depopulate the area with cluster bombs.

Why doesn't it just take an amount of the nuclear waste from its non-existent nuclear weapons program and simply spread it over enough of southern Lebanon to sterilise the area of human activity. Israel has shown that it doesn't care about any human life apart from those of its own citizens. So Israel, go to it!

What is most disturbing of course is that Israel doesn't care about what other countries think of it.

politics by razor alone..

The British Mandate to facilitate the nation-building processes of the Palestinian state is belied by their committment to retaining control of a strategic centre of gravity in the Middle East. The fact that the resident Zionist establishment was pressing for sovereign recognition in the area formed a happy coincidence for the continuation of the Great Game. When the UN assumed control after WWII, they completely over-rode the Arab concern, and so a war of attrition ensued fueled by three clear combustibles;

1. The right to exist (Jewish)
2. The right to defend (Arab)
3. The right to self-determination (Modern Imperials)

Logically, each condition must be satisfied before the following one can take place. As such, they may be viewed as integral or co-dependent. Moving between them requires an element of transformation, in this case;

4. The right for common rights (UN)

Problem is the UNSC is made up of the world's most powerful Imperials (some current, some not), and so the right for common rights is is bound by the right to self-determination.

Therefore the UN needs to be transformed before we will ever see any prolonged respite in the Arab-Israeli conflict, or ever, an enduring peace.

The current discussion is much too specific, reciting instances of attrocities and amnesties in an effort to credit what is essentially the same argument. One side may be worse, but both are co-dependent, unable to exist as they do without the other, and so equal in a sense.

"Will the Lebanese people allow their country to be used by Iran as a surrogate battlefield again?"

Will Israel stop provoking conflict in South Lebanon by constant incursions into Lebanese territory? Lebanon alleges over 500 such incidents from December 2005-May 2006.

http://blogs.zmag.org/node/2708

No, I don't normally support Zmag, and I reject the anti-Semitic rubbish from the pseudo-left.

But the article links directly to the UN reports of these allegations.

Those who blindly always support Israel are desperate to make us think that Poor Little Israel is always the victim. But Hizb'Allah will not be defeated until Israel no longer is a threat to the people of South Lebanon. Only then will they be able to do away with the only armed force (of reactionary anti-Semites) that stands between them and the IDF.

David Jackmanson
http://letstakeover.blogspot.com

"Middle East Settlement" at Last Superpower.net
http://www.lastsuperpower.net/disc/members/00391126506602

What is the pseudo-left?
http://www.lastsuperpower.net/disc/members/568578247191

It is interesting how totally oposite views can be held on the same subject depending on your viewpoint.

Fleurette says that the Jews have done fine. In Poland? Germany? Russia?

And in Egypt, Iraq, Yemen things were not crash hot for Jews according to many histories. And if you consider the Egyptian Jews were living in Israel on stolen land, I understand that they had to leave their houses behind. So the Egyptians now have stolen Jewish houses. In Hebron where ancient Jewish communities were attacked and forced out by thugs their houses were stolen.

And you did not reply to my comments about the the Copts in Egypt. Was their land also not stolen? Without colonization Arabs would be confined to Arabia, Britain and France would contain only Celts. The occupation of Spain by the Arabs was perhaps one of the best things that happened.

If only the Arab peoples would regain their lost skills and free expression which they so brilliantly used in the Middle Ages. Our word Algebra and much of our mathematics is Arabic, but when they excelled they were modernists not traditionalists. Close down the Madrases and reopen the Universities with free thought and expression uncensored by the Imans.

Then tiny Israel will be no problem and Jews and Arabs will once again work together and become a powerhouse of civilization.

I must admit to being shocked by this comment by David Boaz in defence of the Sabra-Shatilla massacres: "The idea that the Palestinian women and children are 'innocent' is ludicrous. The men cannot exist or replace lost fighters without them."

This is a particularly revealing comment when one considers how Zionists are always dredging up the Holocaust to deflect critism from Israel.

Why did the Phalangists attack Sabra and Shatila? Marilyn claims that they did this under instructions from the wicked IDF.

It is still not clear to me why a Christian group would attack Muslims in their own country just because the IDF told them.

And please no one reply with vulgarities or generalised remarks about "the Zionists".

And fleurette your claim that most religious Orthodox Jews claim that the idea of a Jewish state is preposterous and use the Jews in Iran as a perfect example flies in the face of almost everything I have read on the subject. It sounds like "Palestinian propoganda" to me.

I don't think Rabbi Yisroel Dovid Weiss agrees with that last statement about his view being Palestinian propaganda.

I have read accounts of Orthodox Jews disagreeing with the state and its actions. Maybe what you are reading is published by the same group that Ted works for. But you must understand that Israel is not run by its religious body despite the claim of it being a Jewish state. This only describes the ethnicity of the state - for that is what Israel is - an ethnocracy.

The conflict between religion and the secular in Israel is quite significant. The ultra-Orthodox Jews (the Haredim) fail to integrate into Israeli society because they place their allegiance to God well before their loyalty to a Jewish state and its secular laws. Secular and religious laws exist in uncomfortable parallel because the government needs to hide group you have to worry about.
behind its religious groups. Otherwise they can no longer propagate views about the Promised Land! (what a shame) Thus we continue to think religion is somehow linked to this conflict when it's the secular.

"It is still not clear to me why a Christian group would attack Muslims in their own country just because the IDF told them."

Because the IDF didn't just tell them to and that's it. They led them to believe that the Palestinians were the enemy, they support the PLO (Hezbollah, Hamas, Al Qaeda, Excuses Excuses). Not to mention they are Muslims wanting to convert the poor Christians and take over their country! (just like Hezbollah apparantly).

In other words, Israel strategically gained an ally in the Lebanese Christians and pushed onto them a narrow and bigoted view of the Muslims which still continues to this day.

It's still not clear to me why young Israelis with a conscience are being vilified because they refuse to serve in compulsory military service in the occupied territories. Because they refuse to ostracise, terrorise and victimise the already persecuted Arabs? Maybe you should read some accounts of Israeli soldiers who have said no. Very interesting.

fleurette

My comment about Palestinian propaganda was mentioned tongue in cheek, a reply to those who scream Zionist propoganda. But the number of orthodox Jews who do not support Israel is a tiny minority. The Haredim are a sect and way out of line with any form of modern mainstream Judaism.

I still cannot understand how Israel could have such an influence on the Lebanese Christians. They would be capable of thinking for themselves, if they chose to oppose the Muslims it could only be because they felt themselves threatened. Please fleurette give them credit as thinking individuals. They made their own choice.

Regarding the position of Jews in Iran it is generally not considered very good as far as jewish scholarly sources are concerned.

Regarding ethnicity of Jews this is a difficult issue because Jewish cultures and DNA differ so widely. The point is that there exist a large number of Jews in Israel many of several generations. Their unwillingness to allow another religious group to become a majority is mirrored in all other countries. For examle all of Europe and America insists on Christianity to be dominant and Iran would hardly accept anything but a Muslim majority.

Also religions dominate the law in most societies just look at some Australian political attitudes to abortion, stem cell research and homosexuality. Israel does have a post-enlightenment society and wants to keep it that way. Vilification of soldiers who choose to opt out from what the majority see as necessary for protection is unfortunate but Israel is relatively enlightened in this aspect as countries go.

The christians didn't want the Palestinian refugees in Lebanon that is why they collaborated with the IDF under Ariel Sharon to kill them. Goodness me do some people live in a bubble of blindness?

Belgium conducted an enquiry just a few years ago and held Sharon culpable as a war criminal. Phalangists still cower in Israel because the Lebanese muslims will tear them to shreds and Ruddock gave expedited visas to some 200 SLA and their families just a few years ago on the basis they "are christian". That all came out in a senate inquiry - you people really need to learn to read.

Now we get to cluster bombs. An IDF rocket commander says "what we did was insane and monstrous, we dropped 1,800 cluster bombs with 1.2 million bomblets using inaccurate rocket launchers and phosphorous bombs which are illegal".

Ted, got any answers yet because believe me you don't scare or intimidate me as you seem to think you can do.

Marilyn, there you are!

Watch by yourself how Hizbollah launches attacks from civilan areas and hide behind women and children.

1. Graphic images smuggled out from Lebanon show how Hezbollah is waging war amid suburban homes

http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,19960056-5006301,00.html

2.The UN humanitarian chief accused Hizbullah of "cowardly blending" among Lebanese civilians and causing the deaths of hundreds during two weeks of cross-border violence with Israel.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1153291989232

3. Hezbollah hides in civilian places to launch its rockets

Watch this clip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aur_DmTIw70

obozo

You are wasting your time. Marilyn will only claim that the site is a US or Zionist misrepresentation. (Hezbollah never does such a thing). If you are lucky she will insult you.

If the Lebanese Christians really did kill Muslims or Palestinians why is that? Such awful things can happen when people consider themselves threatened.

And Marilyn why do you think that Ted Lapkin is trying to scare or intimidate you? Are you so important? I know I am not. He probably respects your work helping the refugees as do we all. But please forget your extreme hatred of the West.

Just back from a quick trip to Israel, so here are a few comments in response to my detractors.

Sanity Check - you are behind the times when you claim "Not one officer has resigned or taken responsibility for the conduct of the war." The OC Northern Command, Major General Adam, has announced his resignation, and I'm sure he's just the first. But then what can you expect from someone who considers the "Socialist Worker" to be a reputable publication?

Fleurette - you are delusional if you truly believe that religious minorities in Iran, including Jews, live "peacefully to this day." The harsh persecution of ethnic and religious minorities by the Mullahs of the Islamic Republic is incontestable. Bahais and Jews, in particular, have been particularly severely treated. And, by the way, homosexuality in Iran is a capital crime, with young men regularly being hanged for the offense of consensual gay sexual relations. Not quite the paradise you would have us believe.

Marilyn: I am aware of Seymour Hersh, particularly his propensity for apolcalyptic prognostications that never come to pass, and his habit of claiming scoops on stories that were already part of the public record. I don't place a lot of credence in his work, quite frankly.

Of course Israel had contingency plans to deal with aggressive action from Lebanon. Given the long record of cross border provocations by Hizbollah since Israel's withdrawal in May 2000, the IDF would have been derelict in its duty if it hadn't done such planning. But so what? Every military in the world has "drawer plans" that it draws up in the event of crisis. None of this detracts from the undeniable fact that the conflict was triggered by a cross border Hizbollah attack into sovereign Israeli territory. Hell, even Nasrallah admits as much.

As for the human shields issue, visit the AIJAC website to see aerial reconnaisance footage of Hizbollah rockets being fired and hidden from within populated areas in Lebanon, including Qana village. A picture is worth a thousand words.

"None of this detracts from the undeniable fact that the conflict was triggered by a cross border Hizbollah attack into sovereign Israeli territory. Hell, even Nasrallah admits as much."

Ted, do you think that the long, brutal, illegal occupation of non-Israili territories may have influenced the situation?

Wow Marilyn, paranoia getting the better of you? I fail to understand how anything that I have done can be rationally interpreted as an attempt to intimidate you.

I challenge you to find any treaty to which Israel is a Party that outlaws the use of Improved Conventional Munitions (ICMs), as cluster bombs are known in military parlance. Both Israel and the US declined to ratify the 1st Protocol Additional to the Geneva Convention (1977) for the simple reason that the document awarded POW status to terrorists. Israel did nothing either illegal nor immoral during its defensive campaign in Lebanon. It warned civilians prior to the commencement of hostilities, as prescribed by the Hague Convention Respecting the Laws and Customs of War on Land (1907). It exercised due diligence in its attempt solely to hit an armed enemy that deliberately used civilians as shields. (Hague and Geneva Convention IV). But when civilian sites and facilities were used by Hizbollah for military purposes, they lost their immunity and became legitimate targets of war under international law (Hague and Geneva Convention IV).

Or as I recently wrote in the "Australian Financial Review:

"Of course, the laws of war forbid combatants from using civilians to shield arms depots and gun positions. The Fourth Geneva Convention declares: 'The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations.' But only the terminally naive could believe that the people who invented suicide bombing would care what international law has to say."

Once again, have a look at the aerial reconnaisance photos on the AIJAC website to see Hizbollah rockets being launched from and hidden within civilian areas.

Stan1: Israel forces left Lebanon over six years before the recent conflict. Even the UN validated that the Israeli withdrawal was total and complete. There was no territorial dispute between Lebanon and Israel.

Hizbollah's problem is not with Israel's borders, but with Israel's existence. Nasrallah has made it crystal clear that nothing less than the annihilation of the Jewish state will satisfy his Islamic radical ambitions.