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The Forum > Article Comments > Flames of protest should be seen from more than one viewpoint > Comments

Flames of protest should be seen from more than one viewpoint : Comments

By Helen Irving, published 4/9/2006

To make flag-burning against the law would be to dilute the freedoms it represents.

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“What is it that offends us when the Australian flag is burnt?”
Let’s find out shall we. What about I round up a seething mob and take them to the Lakemba mosque. Once the mob has assembled I deliver a speech denouncing our government’s dealings with Lebanon and in particular the free hand that country’s government gives to Hezbollah. The mob then produces a few official flags of Hezbollah and Lebanon and we torch them. All of this done under the aegis of our treasured freedom of political speech. There wouldn’t be enough police to handle the riot.

People who lecture on the aridites of the law are truly lost when they try to understand emotions, passions and other human feelings. And the legal club isn’t immune from expressing its version of outrage. It is very quick to slap a contempt of court fine on those who test the theory of freedom of political speech when done inside the court. As a matter of fact one person was locked up for 27 months because he wanted to use his freedom to remain silent when he was in court.

Perhaps we should allow flag-burning or the burning of effigies but such action should guarantee the right to retaliate by the group that takes offence. If the original action was carried out by a group of uni students (at the urging of the uni lecturers) a mannequin with its head filled with sawdust should be torched on uni grounds, just outside the chancellor’s office. I’m sure no one would take offence.
Posted by Sage, Monday, 4 September 2006 11:22:34 AM
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The briefest and most accurate definition of the noun, flag, is a ‘signal or indicator’, and some of us get a little carried away by such an ordinary piece of cloth. The Australia Flag is our ID, and we should be proud of what goes on ‘under’ the flag rather than of the flag itself.

Whether or not flag burning should be illegal in view of the very few instances of the practice is irrelevant because, to date, neither of the major parties seems interested in making it so. Further, there are many Australians who think that flag burning is part and parcel of what it means to live in a democracy. I am not one of those Australians who think that way; seeing the flag burnt makes irritates me mightily. But, should it be an ‘offence’ punishable by law?

No, it should not. The few people who have burned their own flag in Australia are to be pitied, perhaps helped, rather than punished. You need to be in a very bad way to think that burning a flag – or any other inanimate object – will help get what you want.

Flag burners are at the bottom of the heap
Posted by Leigh, Monday, 4 September 2006 11:42:48 AM
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It seems bizarre that one would want to burn our flag considering what it stands for.

Indeed, it is only because of what this, as well as other flags with European heritage, that allows this discussion to even take place.

As the post above stated, could you burn even a flag of immoral terrorists like Hezbollah, who deliberately slaughter innocent Israeli's while cowardly firing it's Iranian made rockets from behind it's own women & children?

Get real. This country is paradise. There is no need to burn our flag, I can think of all but a dozen or so flags that deserve to be burnt, but not ours.

This sort of religious thinking of leftists who somehow believe they have the moral high ground, while mixing with bigoted Islamic leaders at functions denouncing the Iraq war, are laughable.

Why not have a Saudi Arabian flag burning kit? This is a nation that doesn't even give females birth certificates, won't allow women to drive cars for fear it may lead to prostitution, where Christianity is illegal, and much much more that would make you want to burn their flag.

Honestly, what is it about Australia you believe warrants such behaviour?

Is it really that you're having a stroke about "the ethnic other" and are reacting in a nihilistic way towards your own culture?
Posted by Benjamin, Monday, 4 September 2006 11:46:12 AM
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Would the author see the burning of the aboriginal flag as racist (thus being against the law) or is that different?
Posted by runner, Monday, 4 September 2006 11:51:03 AM
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BURNING THE FLAG...should be illegal.

Protesting what goes on under it, should not.

A national flag is the absolute epitomy of all that a nation aspires to and is. There is no more intense symbol of the nation. To burn it, is to become a traitor, and is deserving of the burner being 'burnt'.

If people don't wish to live under that flag, GO ELSEWHERE.
If they don't have the energy or will to PROTEST and fight politically for a better nation, then SHUT UP.

We should always remember, that those who burn our flag, do so from the viewpoint of OUTSIDE interests. This would apply to the Socialists who are connected to "World wide socialist Revolution" and to Muslims who are connected to "The world and all that is in it belong to Allah and his messenger".

Sunni Muslims protest because 'their' mob has lost its privileged powerful position on top of the Shia's... lets ALways remember, some protests are simply about sour grapes at lost toys. Sunni Muslims don't see an Iraq which includes Shia and Kurds from what I see, or if they do, they only see them as to be downtrodden under the Sunni Gestapo Jackboots.

Sunni insurgents are our enemies. NO ONE can give comfort or support to our (listed) enemies, thats the LAW. It includes Hamas, Hezbollah, and should include 'Shura Council' of Iraq and similiar bodies.

Burning our flag seems to me, to be tantamount to showing your wife of 30 years your marraige certificate, spitting on it, then ripping it up, then burning it and spewing forth with invective of the most callous kind, and after all that.. displaying your new trophy mistress 20 yrs younger than your wife.

Protest.. yell, scream.. jump up and down, hold lawful signs, march in the streets.... wave banners.. but don't...repeat DON'T burn our flag !

Burn pictures of the prime minister... the health minister... the treasurer... beat the crap out of their efigies... but the flag ? nope..sorry. Not negotiable to me.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Monday, 4 September 2006 12:24:29 PM
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Interesting take boaz. Few would argue that it is okay to burn the flag.

I don't like it either. I don't really see the point and I think you can probably find more effective means of protest.

But jail terms? here's where I have a problem.

The flag burning is merely a means for protesters to get attention. Most competent protest organisers wouldn't want to open that can of worms, but then again, if your cause is being ignored it would be effective.

So I can see why someone might to it. In response, I would hope that whoever did so was shamed. I'd hope that they'd be crucified in the media, and there would be plenty of people showing their disgust in non-violent means.

But I would hope that there is no jail term. Something like this should only be judged before the court of public opinion.

The flag is a symbol of patriotism. It's up to ordinary Australians to uphold that. If we need our government to do that, then perhaps we don't deserve the flag in the first place.

It's easy to say 'lock them up!' for desecrating the flag.
It's much harder to rouse people from their apathy and get them involved in things that really matter.

Australia isn't about jailing those who do things we don't like. At least, I hope it isn't.
Posted by TurnRightThenLeft, Monday, 4 September 2006 1:14:29 PM
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Burning national or cultural flags is a political statement, retaliation is another political statement and does have connotations of belittling those who see a flag as a symbol of something. I see flags as identifying and uniting something, nothing more.

The author, a lawyer makes the following false and misleading statement .

“Fortunately, although many Australians may not know this, our constitution protects our freedom of political communication and speech. This arises from the fact the constitution establishes a representative democracy in Australia. To use the constitution's words, our government must be "directly chosen by the people".

Our government is not “directly chosen by the people”, we don't have direct elections. We have compulsory preferential voting, which means we have no choice. Political parties (mostly lawyers) end up getting many non direct votes, from enforced preferential voting.

So her entire argument goes down the drain, along with everything else she says about our supposed freedoms. Our only freedom is a freedom to die and even then they condemn you if you make that choice. We don't have the freedom of justice, only the freedom to pay for it if you can.

If the so called legal profession was worth anything other than greedy deception, then the high court (lawyers), would uphold our constitution. Declaring invalid our non directly chosen parliaments and voting system, then jail all the perpetrators and supporters of this unconstitutional treason. But I doubt they'd jail themselves, their to corrupt for ethical practise
Posted by The alchemist, Monday, 4 September 2006 1:39:01 PM
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Hi maximus, brutus, cassius...

watch this clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8E4rMJVHyeg
Posted by Michael4Love, Monday, 4 September 2006 5:07:34 PM
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Curious, more curious and even more curiouser still...

What the ef' Michael4Love?

Nobody called maximus, brutus or cassius ever posted on this thread, until now of course, so where are you coming from?

I regret that I couldn't view your link because my computer's security blocked it, so I have no idea what the link was about. In fact I have absolutely no idea what the 'ef YOU'RE about.

I can only imagine that you're some sort of luny Marxist-greeny off his face on drugs and don't have the first idea about what the ef' you're ranting about.

But what the heck? Salute! Good luck to you mate. I hope it all works out for you in the end.

LOL mio bella.
Posted by Maximus, Monday, 4 September 2006 7:51:16 PM
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Hi Maximus,

Oops, I am sorry. That post of me is not intended for you. The link leads to a clip which shows a 'protest' of a different kind.

Check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8E4rMJVHyeg
Posted by Michael4Love, Monday, 4 September 2006 9:04:15 PM
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Is a blind person who has never actually SEEN the flag any less patriotic than somebody who has and would that person be equally affronted by hearing that one has been burned?

Is burning or defiling ANY symbol of what is essentially Australian equally offensive?

Is a returned serviceman who has actually risked his (or her) life on the field of battle entitled to use this form of protest?

The US has specific laws governing how and where their flag may be used, Australia does not.

A flag is not a symbol of patriotism, merely a tribal emblem or totem that may be changed by an Act of Parliament.

The response to this article demonstrates how powerful the notion of flag burning is and what an attention seeking mechanism is has become.

Affronting as it may be to some, surely one of the things the flag represents should be the right to demonstrate in that way, otherwise the flag (ie the State) raises itself above the rights of the individual.
Posted by rache, Tuesday, 5 September 2006 12:07:31 AM
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FLAG BURNING SHOULD BE A CRIME.

I would suggest life imprisonment as a minimum.

Every person so far I've spoken with views burning our flag with intense ill feeling.
We are all agreed that members of parliament are 'open season', but not the flag.

To burn the flag is to burn the nation.

"DO TO THE FLAG, THAT WHICH YOU WOULD ACCEPT BEING DONE TO YOU"

Burn it ? you burn. Spit on it.. be spat upon.... defacate on it ? be defacated on.

The flag does NOT say "Australia can do what it likes"...it just says "This is Australia" and it symbolizes some of our history.
The Union Jack incorporates the St Patricks Cross of Ireland, the Saltire of Scotland, and the St George Cross of England.

Its presense along with the Southern Cross indicates our history and geography.

It does NOT make a moral judgement on all done under it.

MAXIMUS you should view that video provided by micheal4love, its a doozy. Just tell your firewall 'allow' when it tries to access the net.
YouTube is a trustworthy site and I've seen the video.

If that does not make you feel like getting out and preparing for WAR then little short of a Nuclear attack will ever do so.

The day when some bearded freak can stand in my city and yell 'KILL KILL, you will PAYYYY' and hold my country up to total contempt in the name of a foreign sleazy religion is the day when I seriously consider my position as a Christian in terms of 'just war' to defend the nation.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Tuesday, 5 September 2006 6:28:50 AM
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Suppose I shin up a flagpole, pull the fluttering cloth down and burn it. What patriot can be insulted when the flag I'm offended by is emblazoned with golden arches and flutters proudly alongside the Australian standard? How degrading that a commercial symbol is permitted concomitant exposure with our national flag.
Posted by Ginger Meg, Tuesday, 5 September 2006 7:02:15 AM
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It's better to wrap yourself in the Constitution and burn the flag than to wrap yourself in the flag and burn the Constitution.
Posted by wobbles, Tuesday, 5 September 2006 1:33:28 PM
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It is a deliberate insult to burn a nation's flag. You are 'throwing down the gauntlet' and if you are foreign to that nation, you are declaring war upon it.
If you reside in that nation, all privileges from it should be removed, as you should be.
And if you are a national, you should be charged with treason.
Posted by mickijo, Tuesday, 5 September 2006 3:17:21 PM
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Consider what we will lose if we make flag burning a crime?

It is a crime by the way if the particular flag belongs to someone else and you have stolen it, like the young man did after the Cronulla riots.

However, when we make flag burning a crime what comes next? Imprisonment for making fun of the national anthem? Exile for criticising our system of government, or even worse the government of the day?

Australia's flag is a symbol, it is not the country itself. While it is an important symbol it is still just a symbol. Who is hurt by the burning of the flag? Only those whose patriotism depends only on symbols and not on loyalty to the idea of Australia: an Australia where political dissent is a cornerstone of our democracy?

Or do we enter a new Askin era, where that notable 'patriot' told his chaffeur to "Run the bastards over" when confronted by demonstrators. An Australia where political free thought is suppressed as thoroughly as it is in North Korea or Iran?

While I would not like to see the flag burnt, I would prefer for people to have the right to burn it if they wish.
Posted by Hamlet, Tuesday, 5 September 2006 8:59:23 PM
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I remember being told, when I was a whipper snapper, that the troops in World War 1 became very clear about what they were fighting for. It was not for shibboleths, like King and Country. They were not about to fall for the flag. These things were mere symbols; they were not to be confused with the thing symbolised; and they had none of the significance of what they symbolised. The RSL leaders do not seem to have learnt these things from returned soldiers like those that I knew.

If flags have come to hold all the significance that some of you attribute to them, then I think we would be better off without them. It is essentially irrational to think that they matter all that much.

There is talk about what the Australian flag stands for. How is that decided? How do you know what it is a symbol of? It's got a Union Jack in the corner; so is that important? (Some think so.) So does that symbolise the long struggle for democracy, for freedom from arbitrary arrest and punishment, for the rule of law and for the rule of the people through the supremacy of parliament? Or does it merely symbolise the union of three countries under a single monarch? Does the blue stand for loyalty and the white for purity? (I forget what the red was supposed to be for.) Is it important that the cross of St. George is more prominent than that of St. Andrew
Posted by ozbib, Wednesday, 6 September 2006 12:10:14 AM
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We could argue, I suppose, that the flag means what those who chose it intended. That would make it very odd to attribute great importance to it. It would be odd, for example, to attribute profound signficance to the inclusion of the Federation star. (Let me try. "It stands for mateship, for communality, for that unity in mutual suppport and generous commitment to others that lies at our nation's heart." See, it is easy. It is also nonsense.)

So how do you know what the flag stands for? How do you decide? It looks as though people want it to stand for what matters to them.

Burning the US flag was popular during the Vietnam war. Those who arged that the war was unjust were branded as unamerican, as unpatriotic, and sometimes as traitors. The Stars and Stripes was waved by supporters of the war, in deliberate symbolism of what they stood for. Burning it was thus a forceful rejection of their views. It was quite clear what was being done, and it was thoroughly justified.

Because it is not clear what the Australian flag stands for, it is not clear what someone who burns it is protesting against. It is as significant as the person who wears it on the seat of his trousers.

Let's just be distinctive, and have no flag. It does no good having it, and quite a lot of harm.
Posted by ozbib, Wednesday, 6 September 2006 12:10:49 AM
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Boaz David...

"FLAG BURNING SHOULD BE A CRIME.
I would suggest life imprisonment as a minimum."

and....

"The day when some bearded freak can stand in my city and yell 'KILL KILL, you will PAYYYY' and hold my country up to total contempt in the name of a foreign sleazy religion is the day when I seriously consider my position as a Christian in terms of 'just war' to defend the nation."

Boaz David...thank 'insert deity here' you dont belong to one of those intolerant extremist religions huh?
Posted by DOOM, Wednesday, 6 September 2006 11:24:20 AM
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Dear DOOM
yes..I'm VERY thankful I don't belong to one of 'those' fundamentalist intolerant groups :) Thanx for highlighting that.

My post was more political than religious, but you would know by now my background and adherence to Christian views. Fortunately, our Christian views do not involve hateful violence, or death threats of the kind I described, which of course came from the Muslims in the UK. (Note:The police use 'righteous' violence)

I am working though, on a Christian view of war.. and defense, not an easy subject. My current position in that thinking is this. "Stop your enemy but don't STOMP him"= "Love your enemy". The only thing at this point holding me back from stopping AND stomping, is my relationship with Christ.
I believe that military defense of our country is legitimate and acceptable to God. (Romans 13) Triumphal ill treatment of defeated enemies for the sake of it is not. Aggressive interrogation when the safety of the nation is at stake is not a problem for me, but I'd make the most use of any proven chemical and psychological tools (which are available) rather than inflicting pain.

Christians have a legitimate right to proclaim the Gospel of Grace, and to speak prophetically against a government, but our reference point is the righteousness of God, NOT the barrel of an AK47 or a bomb.

We will speak against injustice, and remind powers to be of the consequences which can include ultimate destruction of the nation, but not at 'our' hands.

This was Israel's experience. The prophets warned "Don't turn away from God".... the kings put on their earmuffs, continued pandering to the primal lusts of people, with cult prositutes, phallic statues, fertility symbols, High places ... and destruction came. The Phillistines, Assyrians, then the Babylonians... and finally the Romans.

We call on the nation to repent... and our leaders to walk in the ways of God, but we don't send them letter bombs if they refuse. We don't need to. Read chapter1&2 of this: (all came true for the nations AND Israel)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=37&chapter=1&version=31
Posted by BOAZ_David, Wednesday, 6 September 2006 5:03:42 PM
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BD

Are you saying that if you weren't a christian you would be violent?
Posted by Scout, Thursday, 7 September 2006 11:49:21 AM
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Here's a bit of irony for you - I respect the flag, solely because this country gives me the freedom to speak out about whatever I wish, and part of that expression represents actions like burning the flag.

The only reason I would have to burn the flag, would be if this country clamped down on those rights, and I was told I wasn't allowed to burn it.
Posted by TurnRightThenLeft, Thursday, 7 September 2006 5:13:41 PM
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Scout...by nature I'm pretty tame, but I do have some testosterone running in my system.

The only fights I've ever had, (and I can count them on the fingers of one hand) were either competitive (boxing) or defending myself from getting my head shoved down a filthy toilet bowl, and the usual childhood squabbles at primary school.

As I've often pointed out, the peace we enjoy is backed up by the potential for and willingness to apply 'violence' against those who would destroy that peace. Thats why our police have firearms.

If I had to take the life of a man screaming 'death to those who insult the prophet' with a large knife in his hand- in the course of defending my country, or my family, I'd still grieve over him, because his hate was built on a lie.

I'm probably more ready now than I've ever been in my life to defend this country and our freedom (including your freedom to pick on me :)
and if your wondering whether I struggle with our Lords words concerning enemies, YES.. I do.. terribly... and I'm trying to come to grips with where we fit in between the Romans 13 teaching and the Sermon on the Mount.

"In so far as it depends on you... live at peace with all men" says Paul.

One thing I do know Scout.. its very difficult to think about being involved in conflict after a season of prayer with the Lord.

THE FLAG. (to others) Turnright etc..
The flag is much too symbolic of the country, freedom to burn it is too much freedom and would contribute to the degeneration of respect for all authority. As I've said.. lampoon and criticize the government, the PM and people, but not the flag.
This is democracy, so if my view prevails.. I hope you would abide :)
As I am obliged to regarding yours
Posted by BOAZ_David, Friday, 8 September 2006 6:21:44 AM
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I agree with you with regard to self defence - have been in a stoush or two myself, when I had no other choice.

The reason I ask is that in many of your posts you talk about fighting and not in that christian soldiers sort of way - you seem to want to provoke and I don't see where this fits in with your christianity.

BTW - Questioning someone who, now lets be honest, is very superstitious is not 'picking on' you. You question me; I question you. Quid pro quo.

Flag burning - I don't approve per se, but then I have a bit more of a problem with flag wearing, as demonstrated at Cronulla. I have problems with thugs - regardless of their religion or ethnic background. Thugs wearing the Australian Flag are alienating a lot of Aussies who aren't thugs and are not into beer swilling, dominating public areas and, by their presence preventing law-abiding people from enjoying the beach. Contrast that type of flag-wearing with the pride we all felt when Kathy Freeman ran around the track after her victories - now thats a positive kind of flag-wearing we can all take pride in - both the Aboriginal and Whitebread flag.

Conclusion: flags, sorry I mean, flames of protest clearly have more than a single perspective - just like religion really. Aaaah variety. Love it.
Posted by Scout, Friday, 8 September 2006 11:44:57 AM
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Scout...

"The reason I ask is that in many of your posts you talk about fighting and not in that christian soldiers sort of way - you seem to want to provoke and I don't see where this fits in with your christianity."

Probably explained by moments of temporary insanity :) or.. a combination of high testosterone from a heavy workout the day before plus an eye-popping news article about radical muslims calling out for the death of those who insult their prophet....

hey.. a bit of trivia.. I've got a black eye and a briused chest at the moment. I caught a whack on the face and a good front kick to the body at the gym during free sparring the other night.

We have these 'free sparring' times at the end of the hour, and by this time, me being 58 almost and them being like 20... err.. I've run out of steam after the first round of sparring. Thereafter I become the human punching bag for the next 2 rounds and I strongly suspect that some of my sparring partners were abused by their fathers based on how hard they hit me during 'light' sparring. Now I have the bruises to prove it.:)

Drunken men wrapped in the flag and hunting down anyone of 'wog/leb' appearance was appalling. Fortunately the flag does not stand for that behavior, but being an inaminate object, it is capable of misuse also.
cheers
Posted by BOAZ_David, Friday, 8 September 2006 9:03:33 PM
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If you believe in the freedom of burning the flag, go stand in the centre of Beruit and set fire to the Hezbollah flag and while you have any life left in you, burn the Lebanese flag also.
After all, it is just a bit of fun. Isn't it?
Posted by mickijo, Saturday, 9 September 2006 3:45:08 PM
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David B., may I ask again how you decide what the flag does and does not stand for? If all it does is signify one country rather than another (as an alternative, say, to a sign saying 'Australia'), then it does not stand for very much, and equally, burning it is not saying anything significant either.

You are properly repelled by the symbolism adopted by the Cronulla first mob, that the flag symbolises white supremacy. If a heavy majority of Australians agreed with the mob view, would you not reject the flag? Or do you think that its symbolism is independent of what people think it symbolises?

More importantly, perhaps, what is it that you care so much about, that you would not allow a person to dramatically declare their contempt for it?
Posted by ozbib, Saturday, 9 September 2006 11:14:52 PM
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Dear Ozbib

The flag has a number of elements.

The Union Jack, which comprises elements of the Irish,Scottish and English flags. (Not Welsh, as it had been annexed by England)

These countries/Races made up the vast majority of early Australians, and Australia was formed by an Act of the British (UK) parliament if I'm not mistaken.

Then there is the Southern Cross. This alludes to our geographical context, and the 2 together link inextricably the History of the races/countries signified by the Union Jack with the Location.

To burn the flag, is to spit on/burn all the above. It is symbolically 'killing' the country. This is a far more serious thing than protesting an act by a member of parliament.

Flags by nature, represent the distillation of what a country is. (or try to) To have contempt for the flag, is to have contempt for the country and its history.

Contempt is a serious thing. Contempt of court will land you behind bars. How much more the flag ?

Having contempt for Government, Ministers, The Church, The Prime Minister is all acceptable. The chance are, they might have done 'contemptable' things.

Your point about the flag symbolizing 'White Supremacy' is well taken. But there is a positive and a negative side to that question.
The positive side would view 'supremacy' more in terms of 'pre-eminence by numbers' rather than a qualitative/superiority thing.
Supremacy and Superiority are not the same.

The negative side would sadly seek to proclaim a 'qualitative' superiority which is racist in the worst meaning of the term.

Many of the more rowdy and violent protesters were fuelled by Alchohol, and hence their 'underlying philosophy' of the protest would have been stumbling and blurry at best.

I think that the mis-use of the flag to promote racial superiority themes should also be illegal, but to display, wrap ones-self in it, with a reasoned and non racist defense for this act, is not just ok, it is helpful and educational.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Monday, 11 September 2006 9:58:16 AM
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I suggest we have a new "the government party in power flag ", maybe an Aussi flag of a different colour .We could burn away to our heart's desire then without a conscience.
It is probably time we had a new distinctive national flag anyway.
Posted by kartiya, Tuesday, 12 September 2006 11:54:32 PM
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