"There is no doubt that there are some elements in Islam that stand in stark contrast to the Australian pop-culture of pornography, gambling, alcoholism, and drug addiction."

I disagree most strongly to this particular line in Nafeeya's article. It is far too broad-brush, and does the rest of the article a great diservice.

I would certainly suggest that "pornography" and "drug addiction" are NOT a mainstream part of the Australia I know.

That said, I do agree broadly with the rest of the article - "Islam" is not monolithic, and for the time it was written, the Quran is reasonably enlightened. I disagree deeply with the second-class citizen situation of women within the Quran, but from what I understand of the holy books of all three major monotheistic religions, it is not a great deal different.

I saw a brilliant thing in a bank the other day - a three-generation muslim family - the Grandmother was covered head-to-toe in black garmets, only her face and hands visible. The mother was wearing long skirts and a long-sleeve shirt, and had a long headscarf on. And the teenage daughter was wearing jeans and a tshirt, and had a short, brightly coloured headscarf, which had me covetting the fabric and wishing I habitually wore a head covering, as it would provide me with another cute accessory to play with!

Nayeefa Chowdhury is the founding director of an Internet-based Islamic information service (Light-of-Islam.net). How on earth did we function as a society before the advent of Light-of-Islam.net?

Nayeefa, you say that one of the bedrocks of Islam is huquq al-‘ibad (the rights of people). Wouldn’t the act of compelling people to do something contradict ‘rights of the people?’ You regale us with the Qur’anic concept of al-amr bi’l ma’ruf wa al-nahy ‘ann al-munkar (enjoining the good and forbidding the evil). Is hand chopping and lapidation enjoining the good? Islam and human rights are immiscible. It has to be that way or Islam would not be able to function.

Nayeeefa, you may be right about the contributions made by Islam in the areas of science and civilization but how come the train ran out of steam. Where is the Islamic version of Mother Teresa? Why is it that the ME muslim countries need to import so much technology if muslims are clever in that field?

The word Muslim means one who surrenders which is hardly a position from which to enquire about and test one’s faith. How then can a muslim seek guidance from an imam. Isn’t the imam required to submit and not question or interpret what the immutable words of the Qur’an mean? How can he dispense advice?

How can muslims achieve global harmony and justice when in muslim households women are being beaten.

You also say that Allah is against slavery yet he wants to enslave his followers.

Nayeefa, you point out that some elements in Islam are against the Australian pop-culture of pornography, gambling, alcohol and drugs. I wonder if those same muslims were against the AUD$1 billion that found its way to Indonesia to assist in the reconstruction. What if the taxes paid by an Australian beer manufacturer were part of that money and it helped rebuild the house of a muslim family living in an outlying village? What a shocking thought

Bigmal, to be fair, Mark Steyn and Coach have both proven themselves to have pretty strong, uncompromising views.

Mark Steyn's brilliant idea is to wage a continuous war, taking the fight to anyone who remotely resembles a threat, before they can get too uppity. He's listed targets like Iran and North Korea.
Even if the US was to adopt this madness, that would be more than even they could chew.

In regard to Coach, he's repeatedly denied that Christianity is a religion.
And now he's commenting on Islam, which apparently IS a religion, and therefore evil.

I'd like to see Irfan present a logical reply, as I've enjoyed reading his articles.
I acknowledge that these particular replies aren't all that constructive, though I know from the tone of the posts so far that the response probably won't be received in a constructive spirit, and the debate is likely to be drawn out until it becomes derogatory.

That being said, it would be nice to have his perspective.

coach, you might want to check with BD regarding just how "equal" women are in christianity. Maybe we could say that women in christainity are not equal in the same way they are in Australian law and for this reason alone christainity is incompatible with Australia.

Irfan, why not try some discussion rather than snide comments from the side. You'll never convince coach and friends but educated muslim reponses to their claims might help the rest of us. Frankly the authors tone regarding "the Australian pop-culture of pornography, gambling, alcoholism, and drug addiction." does not sound like she has a great deal of tolerance for diversity. Maybe I'm reading more into it than I should but I've read enough other stuff that suggests many muslims do feel superior "by righteousness and good action" judged on their own terms.

Her comment "Islam always abides by the philosophy that prevention is better than cure." lines up fairly well with the approach taken by those who would ban further muslim immigration and place severe limitations on those muslims already here. That's what they are trying to do - prevent what they see as a risk to our future.

I'll continue to defend the right of muslims to practice their faith so long as my right not to practice your faith is supported.

R0bert

When I was traveling in Malaysia, I met a Pakistani Muslim (I don’t know which strand he practiced) who explained to me that in his faith that “infidels” are not required to abide by sharia law, however Muslims are, and the code is rigidly enforced upon Muslims. Moreover he explained to me that Koranic law requires that Muslims should protect (ie. not persecute) infidels who live amongst them but attempt to persuade them to follow the path of Islam.

Now, that doesn’t really sound any different to me to the way Christians behave in their beliefs.

Furthermore, he explained to me converting to Islam requires one to declare, 3 times, and to mean it in one’s heart that, “there is no God but God (Allah) and that Mohammed is his (last) messenger.” Furthermore, he said that since God is the only one that can see into your heart, only God knows if your conversion is genuine or not ie. whether you really mean it or if you have doubts or are being forced.

The upshot of this was, in his explanation, that forced conversion to Islam is invalid and that Sharia law should not apply to anybody who is unwilling in their heart to become Muslim. Moreover, he said God would know if you had truly converted or not and whether Sharia really applied to you or not. Finally, he said that this is why Muslims are enjoined to persuade other to convert with reason and argument, not by the sword.

Now, I’m an atheist, so this is all so much mystical mumbo-jumbo to me, but it sounds at least like a rational and coherent platform that has an internally consistent logic within its own terms of reference. And it doesn’t sound so very different to the way Christians attempt to convert others either.

Could Irfan or Nayeefa possibly clarify this situation?

Gee GB on GB my mum would use the hose on’ya see all the hair pulling and biting that is kids stuff. All us agnostics and atheist can have a big laugh after, it really is funning to see you GB's on all sides talk about this stuff as if it's real.
There is no god(s) there no supernatural no nothing it's all in your head's. If all you people looked to the here and now rather then the "after life" then maybe we could make some progress. Don't hide in the dark, Step into the light.

Ps there two way’s to train a dog negative reinforcement or positive reinforcement. Fear teaches quicker the love and that is why all major religions use it