My oh my. This is a practical guide how to reach a conclusion before phrasing your argument. Take one weak polemicist, counter with random quotes, and hey presto! Secuarism = bad. Religion = good. Christianity = Very good.

OK, let's have religion "open to rational criticism and careful scrutiny". Scrutiny is the name of the game these days. Religion & rationality, however, do not mix. Faith is like that.

This is gonna be one mighty long debate about how many angels there are on the head of a pin. A pity the article is so one-eyed.

Ant and Bennie

speaking as a 'conservative evangelical' I wish to assure you that I have NO desire to return to any situation where the 'Church' runs the show, as in Government. That very thing turned the Church sour with the decree of Constantine, and it has done so every since where such an approach has been tried.

Firstly its unblibical... so obviously it won't work.

Secondly, our calling in Christ is to be Salt and Light, not dictators. Our role is a prophetic one, (read some of the old testament prophets to get an idea of this) not to 'fore'tell, but to 'forthtell' the wisdom and glory and righteousness of God, that men and women may consider their position before Him in every level of society.

TFOE's point about 'Redemption' of fallen creation, not just the individual is a MOST IMPORTANT POINT......

Redeemed individuals will take a 'responsible stewardship' approach to the environment, to economics, to social law our treatment of animals etc. Redemption and Renewal can and does extend to many levels of life and society. I cannot see how a redeemed individual will spend $75 out of a $101 supermarket bill on Tobacco alone. (as I saw the other day) So there are economic and social advantages to personal redemption.

blessings to all :)

Why is it you always miss the point Bosk, is it willful?

I didn't claim that these things were created ex nihilo by Christendom, my point was their presence in Europe cannot be explained without reference to Christianity. If you'd done your homework you'd understand the context of my statement. Bill Muehlenberg quoted Prof. Rodney Stark. Please read and understand

http://thefruitoflips.blogspot.com/

To repeat myself http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4664#52449 your reading of history lacks all nuance - in your simple anti Christian black and white thinking a negative achievement in European history is the fault of Christianity a positive one in spite of it.

The onus is on you to explain how universal human rights developed only in Europe, why science and technology flourished only in Europe, why capitalism flourished only in Europe, why Europe produced the greatest thinkers the world has seen, and how this was achieved in a continent that called itself Christendom if its understanding of existence through the lens of the Gospels was in your opinion so frightfully erroneous. It is more miraculous than any of Jesus' miracles.

That this idea is even entertained, that our intellects could be so darkened almost invites a preternatural explanation.

Bosk you are a bigot. The remedy is to avoid all anti Christian and skeptical sites for two weeks and read some decent history, beginning with two atheist historians Prof. Stark and Niall Ferguson.

Christian saviours of Europe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lepanto_(1571)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vienna

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tours
" It appears that the years of year-round training that Charles had bought with Church funds, paid off."

" one of the greatest upset victories in military history, and left him with a unique place in history hailed through the centuries as Christendom's savior."

Hospitals – from the link you provided

"The adoption of Christianity as the state religion of the empire drove an expansion of the provision of care, but not just for the sick. … they were religious communities, with care provided by monks and nuns.

The First Council of Nicaea in 325 A.D. urged the Church to provide for the poor, sick, widows and strangers. It ordered the construction

of a hospital in every cathedral town."

The Good Samaritan Luke 10:30-37 "Go and do thou likewise"

Capitalism and Science

"Encouraged by the scholastics and embodied in the great medieval universities founded by the church, faith in the power of reason infused Western culture, stimulating the pursuit of science and the evolution of democratic theory and practice. The rise of capitalism also was a victory for church-inspired reason, since capitalism is, in essence, the systematic and sustained application of reason to commerce — something that first took place within the great monastic estates." Stark

Point 5) The Pope can abrogate God given inherent rights??

You argue that the concepts of human rights just appeared out of nowhere in the 17th Century and hypocritically accuse me of bad history? The Enlightenment has its roots in the Middle Ages:

St.Thomas Aquinas in the thirteenth century wrote that a just government required the consent of the governed, and the role of government is not just to restrain sin but a natural good and gift from God. he formulated what was perhaps the first justification for civil disobedience, that is, breaking the law to highlight its injustice.

"One of the most decisive contributions to the development of modern liberty occurred in ancient times with the rise of the Church, which relativized the state. With the Church standing alongside, superior in dignity IF NOT IN EARTHLY POWER, the state could not be regarded, as it was in the Periclean Age, as the UNIQUELY suitable sphere for any life that is fully and distinctively human. No longer could it be said that man is merely a "political animal." Human lives were no longer subject to the EXCLUSIVE CLAIMS OF THE STATE. The most bewitching of all idols was reduced to the status of a SERVANT - of all legitimate PRIVATE and public concerns in the modern view. If this relativization had not occurred, stable liberty could not have been achieved."

http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft9712/tinder.html

Where was I anti evolution?

Lol Pol Pottian fanaticism to extirpate all memory of positive Christian influence from our past Bosk?

So far only Christians have written positive posts.

Where are all the Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Bhudists? And which religion is right?

Is it true that Christianity teaches that only those who believe in Christ can go to heaven? And if so why would Christ have preached such a thing? And did non-Christians before Christ have heavenly rights? And was there a period of grace to allow non-believers to enter heaven if they lived in an area in which the Christian message had not yet arrived?

Jewish Law sates clearly that all people can enjoy benefits from the Deity as long as they keep to basic laws of decency and Bhudism teaches the many paths to Nirvana. Do Christianity and Islam have similar views?

Just wondered, it seems relevant in a multicultural society.

I understand why monotheist are so scared of secularism and those secure in their lives without the crutch of a belief system, freedom frightens them. Ever met a monotheist who's relaxed, or at peace with the world or themselves, they constantly force their insecurities onto others in increasingly violent ways.

Those looking at the blank world of Yahweh, are very frightened, as all it shows is nothing but the bloody history of their gods wrath. It makes me laugh how they use text from both testaments supporting their position, yet deny other text and fact supporting the veracity of monotheistic expression. Yahweh kills all who refuse to bow down to him and even those who do.

As with all the deluded, they desperately try to change history dismissing the true facts with their fantasies. Just read a history of the Canaanite and their secular society, a thousand years before the new testament and how they altered Abrahamic laws, by removing the despotic and barbaric injustices of Yahweh's followers.

Martin for his proof, gives us a link to his own blog and quotes a deeply religious professor as the defining verifiable source of his supposition, He fails to include how deceptive Europeans where with indigenous peoples, who welcomed them as friends. But typical followers of Yahweh, they lied, killed the people and took over their lands and wealth. The technology they used, originated from china and other countries first. The Chinese and indigenous were not really interested in converting the world violently, they used most technology to benefit their lives.

It was the monotheists who used technology for evil, continuing today to develop it for better killing. Everyone else, just follows suit, trying to survive Yahweh conversions of people to his side, using his estabilshed method, death.