The question of self defence may serve as excuse but its use conceals much, making the blame game so much simpler.
The pin prick are the rockets of July12 Killing Israel says not so say observers. The rocket were a diversion to kidnapping Israeli, a response to Israel refusal for completion of prisoner exchange. The retaliation was according to George Monobiot writing in the UK Guardian& August 06 long planned and such plans were known to the Americans.
Rockets and incursions have been common UN observers noting infringement of the Blue line more often by Israel than Hizballah and Stephen R Shalom Aug & Znet lists those fired and resulting damage and deaths (deaths None).
Also noted is the unresolved dispute over the Sheba Farms still occupied by Israel but declared to belong to Syria by the UN, part of the Golan heights.
So I think whilst international law may well say Israel has the right of self defence though exceeding any measure of reasonableness,justified by the rockets and kidnapping of July 12 morality, which has no place in foreign affairs, though used to keep the electorate onside, would point to Israel as responsible. Morality has place in human relations.
In fact I would argue that foreign ministers and those associated behave in ways which might be to National benefit but were the actions taken in civil society existing law would incarcerate them for ever as it would the media were untruths culpable.
The culpability of the football style followers screaming at the sidelines or commonly from more protected areas reamin a question for lawyers.

The idea that the ‘right of self defence is not unlimited’ as laid down by some remote organization such as the United Nations typifies the naïve blather of academics and others untouched by the realities of war. When a country or individual has to resort to self-defence, the rules go out the door. It is complete nonsense to suggest that polite behaviour accompanies war.

A country that suffers a ‘pinprick of an attack’ can, in fact, react in anyway it wishes or thinks appropriate at the time. It might very well be an overreaction, but who is there to stop it.

There are international laws of war which can be exerted after the event, but let’s not forget that only the losers in a conflict are brought to book and treated as ‘war criminals’. The criminals in this case are Islamic terrorists and, by default, the Lebanese government and people.

The author’s snide remark about the Australian government’s thankfulness that Israel is doing a job against terrorists, which could prevent it from having to do the same thing in our own region, is pathetic. Of course any sensible government would prefer this.

The author’s concern for civilian ‘targets’ would be better addressed to the Hezbollah terrorists and their protectors, the Lebanese government and, according to a recent poll, 80% of the population. The terrorists are the ones putting the civilians at risk, and if the poll is correct, most of the Lebanese people side with the terrorists.

The author asks us: ‘However, do Lebanon’s failings (grudgingly acknowledged by him) justify the scale and intensity of the Israeli assault?’

The answer from anyone interested in putting down Islamic fanatics and protecting the free world should be a resounding yes

Mr Rothwell, at the present time the UN is ttrying desperately to save the remnants of Hizbollah, with the agreement of the weak, spineless Olmert & Peretz. However, what you and others do not seem to have noticed is the precedent this provides in the region.

According to this precedent, if the Israeli fundamentalist settlers, gain access to advanced arms, tanks, artillery and even a portion of the airforce, they will be in a similar position to that of Hizbollah now, especially given that Likud, the party that represents their interests, is represented in the Knesset.

So if the settlers are armed, the State of Israel has no responsibility for their actions, let us be clear about this, NO RESPONSIBILITY AT ALL. This is good, Hizbollah may win this round thanks to the conditions leading to this precedent, but the value of this precedent in finally providing a complete and final end to the Palestinian problem, amongst others, cannot be overstated. Perhaps we will see the Likud branch out, and reform its terrorist arm, Irgun, actually I see no perhaps about it.

Of course they could hardly be evicted from their settlements, as required by the UN, as that would precipitate a civil war, nor could they be disarmed by the Israeli government for the same reason.

That is the good thing about law, precedents cut both ways my friend.

Inshallah

2bob

I have problems with these analyses when they seem to avoid discussing certain realities:
* Lebanon knew Hezbollah were operating against Israel and has consistently refused to do anything about them - de facto, regarding them as part of the Lebanese state. If Hezbollah are operating with the "blessing" or tolerance of the Lebanese State, then the Lebanese State as a whole has condoned acts of warfare against Israel.
* Nobody has yet suggested that the Lebanese government has ever made any even token attempt to disarm this militia or to explicitly condemn and repudiate their actions.
* Lebanon and all Arabic countries continues to feed their population with a media diet of constant anti-Semitic (or should I say anti-Jewish) propaganda including dramatised versions of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, showing the Jews as the cause of all the problems of the world. Certainly, no Arab country ever blames itself for its people's ignorance, starvation or poverty - it's all the fault of Israel and the US.
* Lebanon and all Arabic countries continues to feed their Islamic population with a religious diet blaming Jews and Israel as the source of all evil in the world and invoking violent destruction of Jewish civilians as religiously-blessed action.
* Lebanon and all Arabic countries make no pretence about their political and religious intention to totally destroy Israel and kill or completely subjegate its population, something they have been trying to do in a structured way since 1946.

It's really very difficult to feel or act proportionate when you know that you face multi-millions of religious zealots who hate you and want to kill you just because you happen to be a Jew.

Maybe Israel should adopt the Hezbollah tactic which the world finds more palatable. Israel should assemble a cache of rockets on its northern border and fire off about 3 - 5 each week into southern Lebanon giving not one whit as to where they land or what they destroy, be that life or property. Then we could all adopt the attitude which has prevailed for the last few years and that attitude is one of supine slumber.

It's the same old lunacy from Leigh and Sage who are determined always to believe the worst of anyone who is not like us.

Rothwell is pretty wrong about a few things here though.

1. In the investigations of over 150 bombings of civilians by amnesty, HRW and the UN not one of them has been found to have weapons anywhere near them.
2. Hezbollah is not all of Lebanon - they have 3,000 fighters compared to Israel with 650,000 - get a grip on reality folks.
3. Why are Israel declaring all the children, babies and everyone else are terr'ists and just bombing them to bits?
4. Why let nearly 100 soldiers get killed to rescue 2? That is nuts, just exchange prisoners.
5. As noted before the Israeli's have been intruding into Lebanon every day from 2000-2003, kidnapping people and then flying over with sonic booms.

Tell me all the armchair warriors who think that murdering Lebanese children is acceptable how can you explain that 1009 Lebanese civilians are dead and 33 Israeli's.

Israel is not under attack from a few piddling little rockets, 1 million people are not fleeing for their lives and are not being bombarded in their homes from 35,000 feet every day of the week in a war planned last year by the Israeli's without even a hint of provocation.

The government of Lebanon is mainly Sunni and Christian for pete's sake.

Wander off and read some reality occassionally.

Interesting article.
2 cents worth of views:

- Hezbollah is part of the Lebanese government ie an internal Lebanese problem and should be handled and seen that way. The Israeli reaction to kidnapped soldiers weakened the Lebanese government and improved Hezbollah popularity in Lebanese communities. Way to go Homer!

- The destruction of Lebanon is an admission of Israeli military failure. Guerilla warfare can only be fought on ground. The Israelis panicked of their eary losses and pulled out and continue with aerial bombardment. The question is: If you know you are fighting few thousands militias in the bottom 30 miles south of Lebanon, why destroy the whole infrastructure of the country and displace close to a million people?

- I don’t think we (Australia) can afford to be another ‘bullet proof vest’ in this conflict. We should get involved within wider picture of peace settlement (ie redefining borders between Israel, Lebanon, Syria; establishing a viable Palestinian state; broker a co-existence agreement between fighting parties).
I believe we should be more impartial and look after our own interest in the Middle East.

- Why is the Israeli government ‘democratically’ detaining more than 20,000 Lebanese indefinitely and without charge?
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=20060807&articleId=2919

So Inshallah 2bob

The realisation has finally hit you. The settlers in the Palestinian state are the problem. Precedent is indeed set and Israel will have to sit back and watch the Palestinians, when there new State is recognised on pre '67 borders, bomb the crap out of any of those Israeli settlers who refuse to recognise the soverignity of the new state of Palestine.

What a mealy-mouthed piece:

If Lebanon shouldn't be "let off the hook" for its "failure to control Hezbollah" maybe Mr Rothwell could tell us why Israel is eternally off the hook for failing to implement Resolution 242 and vacate the Occupied Palestinian Territories, not to mention Resolution 194 and countless other UN resolutions?

"Do Lebanon's failings justify the scale and intensity of the Israeli assault?" he asks. JEEESUS! Mr Rothwell, do Lebanon's alleged failings justify the Israeli invasion and destruction of Lebanon, full stop?

Global research again. Such a hoot that place.

When only totally unhinged moonbat howlings will do, beloved by the discerning conspiracy theorist and grassy knoll aficionado anywhere. The sort of place that bespeaks journalistic quality and makes Georrge Monbiot seem calm and rational by comparison.

Sincerely, I this is not the sole source of information Fellow Human?

Can somebody teach Marilyn Shepherd how to spell, or at least use an apostrophe properly? Hint to Marilyn - there is no apostrophe in Israelis. And Pete has a capital "P".

Gee Savage Pencil, that was deep and meaningful wasn't it? My spelling is not OK in the face of the slaughter of over 1000 innocent Lebanese civilians in collective punishment.

Ed O'Loughlin has the results of a poll in the SMH and AGE today about the Israelis. Nearly 90% believe it is fine to blow up civilians. Is that the nice people we are supposed to support SP and Don?

Not only that but over night the Israelis bombed a bridge, turned around and murdered 12 people who came to inspect the damage. Is that who we support Don?

What about if the US sends them the nice little cluster bombs poste haste as they have demanded so they can murder civilians quicker?

In Ed's piece today he describes the rocket launchers as "hillsides' which seem to presume that the rockets are on hills and not in houses.

Fancy that.

90% think it is OK to bomb and murder Lebanese civilians. Nice one. Strangely enough Australians are actually smarter - 51% say no soldiers into the mess and 83 % say we have to fix the Palestine problem.

In the meantime something that didn't happen in Britain based on information from terrorism central - Islamabad - is being whipped up into a frenzy with not a person hurt.

A nice distraction with Blair blithely on holidays and not a trace of actual evidence of anything at all.

Of course no one wants to explain why a group of English citizens would bother to fly thousands of miles to bomb people when they could bomb them in England and have the same impact with less cost. But hey? Why would they be rational when they can't even see that we have made Iraq a catastrophe and stand by and watch the 90% of Israelis who approve of murdering civilians get on with the job.

Does "Lebanon's" attitude justify Israel's "disproportionate" response?

A big, fat "yes".

"Lebanon" is not even a country. It is just a collection of waring tribes. I personally hope that the Syrians annex the place and give it a real government. This would be a great thing for the Syrian people as it would give Syria, a land locked country, access to the sea.

The only reason why Syria has not done this already is because Lebanon is full of Lebanese. And as the Australians have already discovered, the Lebanese are not the most desireable houseguests.

Israels best option is to expel all "Lebanese" from their borders for a distance of 30 pr 40 kilometres, to stop the Islamofascists from raining rockets on their cities. every time the Arabs attack Israel, Israel should take a bit more land. Even the Arabs might then be be able to figure out that leaving Israel in peace is the best course of action.

Of course, that would be very hard on the people who are members of a dozen loyalties, who loosely call themselves "lebanese" whenever the fancy suits them. But who cares? I for one don't. The lebs ran out of friends in this country, long ago.

Well the argument descends to personal abuse, intelligent comment and citation of sources. Bit like a football team really though the blood and guts is best viewed from safety.
We are all armchair warriors. Those that know truth are not telling or are muzzled.
Left wing rubbish ! Why then was the information concerning Iraq so wrong why did the cheer squads prevail?
Was not wrong?
A brutal dictator was overthrown and freedom prevailed. The dictator allowed women to be educated, a robust health system and dishonest voting paternalism and cronyism. Useful when reaction to the Shahs demise turned against us. So what is so different from Australia?

Why Iraq? Because here sufficient evidence has been unearthed to convince all except the most dogged of our being conned.
For Israel the West has been particularly ‘kind’ and this democratic country with educated women good health system and votes for most, though not party to the non-proliferation treaty and owning several nuclear weapons is ‘good’ The newspapers say so!
Yet Israel established by the colonial system which stated that current inhabitants should be accorded due rights. Cooperation and friendship was possible. But this chosen people, the Zionists, decided Israel was not large enough and that the occupants should be removed, their land taken. The propaganda later claimed attack by these designated terrorists, forgetting, as always their own actions.
They rebelled. USA held firm and the nation was armed becoming the bully boy it now is. Fear is a poor handmaiden of moral behaviour. Yes there were atrocities on both sides, rather more from the Israeli. Their were terrorists on each side and still are. So what game are we playing apart from backing our football team? The politics of little frightened men conscious of their own importance ill intentioned amoral, seeking control. Just the fun of the stoush and of course going to Church on Sunday proclaiming our love of man belief in compassion and love! On one side the rule of the powerful on the other the idea of rights and compromise. Oh yeah. Where is this?

Marilyn, your true (biased) colors are finally nailed to the mast.

-1000 innocent LEBANESE civilians in collective punishment.(= Israel bad)
-a poll in the SMH and AGE today about the Israelis. (Quoted by you to show ='Israel bad')
-Israelis bombed a bridge, turned around and MURDERED 12 people (='Israel bad)
-90% think it is OK to bomb and MURDER Lebanese civilians. (= 'Israel bad')
-and watch the 90% of Israelis who approve of MURDERING civilians get on with the job (= 'Israel bad')

Your only mention of the rockets (over 2500 so far have fallen on totally civilian Israeli cities) was to DIMINISH their connection with justifiable Israeli self defense.

"And I'll see your true colors
Shining through
I see your true colors" (Cindy Lauper)

and further Marilyn, I see it took you about 3 microseconds to jump on the "Its all a distraction" bandwagon re the British Terrorism Arrests and all you can say is 'its about something that DIDN'T happen'... my goodness MS... you definitely need therapy... you would rather it HAPPENED.. 9 jumbo's downed each carrying 400 passengers? THEN... you would be happy to arrest these morons ? They were arrested based on PAKISTANI intelligence, or did you miss that ?

As I said.."true colors".

The 13 Terror suspects in Melbourne have now been politicized by the Left (Resistance) calling them "The Barwon 13".

"The organising meeting is being held at 2:30 pm on Sunday 13th August at the Melbourne Resistance Centre, Druids Building, Level 5, 407 Swanston St." for a demo at the State Library at 1:00 pm on Saturday August 19th.

Reddy, Col, others.. lets all turn up and give some balance to this.

redneck,

It's difficult to know what's more irritating about you, the sheer irrelevance of your posts or your profound ignorance: Syria is not landlocked. Ever thought of purchasing an atlas? You'll need to find a place with the word 'Bookshop' on it first, OK? And while you're there, how about purchasing a dictionary and looking up (or get someone else to do it for you if it's too hard) the correct spelling of "desireable".

Boaz
Do you find it all ironic that when you are not quoteing scriptures all you seem to do is support wars, race riots, and the detention of woman and children in detention centres?

Dear Tieran

hard to know how to respond to your post, but I certainly welcome criticism.

Lets take them in order.

1/ Supporting Wars.

I'd be in a bit of trouble (as would you) if I didn't support the Allies during world war II wouldn't I ? So clearly, there is such a thing as a 'just' war. I don't think ANY war is squeaky clean in that nothing bad, cruel, unjust etc ever happens. But we (you and me) need to avoid throwing the baby out with the bathwater.... we (you and me) only have the freedom to speak as we are here BECAUSE of a war which gave us that freedom. Am I reading history wrongly ?

2/ Supporting Race Riots.

I don't recall ever supporting a race riot. If you are referring to Cronulla ?.... I haven't supported the violence against Lebanese looking people any time. I DID support the large turnout which was called to protest AGAINST the violence to life savers and against our culture by Lebanese Muslims. But not the aggresive violence. ok?
I WILL support the organizing training of Aussies in self DEFENSE against multiple attackers, which is quite legal.

3/ Detention of Women and Children.

T, the other side of that coin is 'keep families together' .. you have a problem with that ? Detention of illegal arrivals is not a problem for me, and you should try blaming the PARENTS who subject their children to dangerous sea voyages and 'country shopping'.
You would probably not see it that way, but this is democracy, and we all call them as we see them.

QUOTE SCRIPTURE.
I share the gospel, because any other approach leaves human beings in their fallen state, which is the cause of all the problems we are now debating. I don't think Chrisitan Scripture is bad for the human condition. Do you ? Does the gospel make people 'meaner' or 'nicer'; 'Violent' or Peaceful ? Being close to Christ, having His mind in us, is the best defense to self destructive behavior.

See you at Druids house tomorrow :)

It is very illuminating that many those who are so forthright & loud in condemning Israel, for “killing civilians", are so silent when double or triple that number are killed each day in Iraq, by fellow Muslims, or when suicide bombers attack crowded civilian buses in Israel.

Makes me think that their concerns about "murder of innocent civilians" are merely a cover for a deeper anti-Israel agenda.

Boaz,
The sad thing is that the “Barwon 13’s” heroes, the Taliban, murdered thousands of genuine leftists when they came to power in Afghanistan. The “leftists” we have in Australia are more akin to spoilt children seeking attention.

Marilyn Shepherd

You state the following: "Ed O'Loughlin has the results of a poll in the SMH and AGE today about the Israelis. Nearly 90% believe it is fine to blow up civilians."

But does such an article exist? I have trawled through the text-only sections of The Age and SMH websites for August 10th, August 11th and August 12th and can't find it. Are you confusing it with an Ed O'Loughlin article that appeared in Scotland's Sunday Herald on July 16, 2006? This article noted that while "opinion in Israel is shaped largely by a domestic media which seldom gives much space to Arab suffering," only 52% of Israelis were in favour of bombing military targets if it meant killing civilians as well.

Also The Jakarta Post of July 28, 2006, reports on a nationwide survey of Indonesians Muslims, which found that more than 40% were ready to "wage war for their faith". Which is why, no doubt, that Islam is called the Religion of Peace?

For further proof of the pacifist, non-violent leanings of Islam, I suggest you listen to John Hendren’s NPR report of August 7, 2006.

This is part of the transcript:

"This is how staggeringly pointless the killing in Iraq is getting: shepherds in the rural western Baghdad neighborhood of Gazalea have recently been murdered, according to locals, for failing to diaper their goats. Apparently the sexual tension is so high in regions where Sheikhs take a draconian view of Shariah law, that they feel the sight of naked goats poses an unacceptable temptation. ...

I've spent nearly a year here ... and that seemed about as preposterous as Iraq could get until I heard about the grocery store in east Baghdad. The grocer and three others were shot to death and the store was firebombed because he suggestively arranged his vegetables.

........../

Standing up a celery stalk near a couple of tomatoes in a way that might - to the profoundly repressed - suggest an aroused male, is now a capital offense."

Strewth,

I rarely, if ever, agree with you on anything, but Syria is not landlocked:

http://media.maps.com/magellan/Images/SYRIA-W1.gif

Keith,

What? The Settlers, particularly those in the supposedly 'illegal' settlements, are made up of some of the worlds best scientists, chemists, etc. With this precedent be prepared to see small rockets, similar to katyushas, but with thermobaric warheads (for instance) fired into Palestinian population centres on a regular basis. For you who fails to understand, the danger posed by this precedent, is that it will be understood by the extremists in Likud/similar parties as carte blanche, the danger of which is shown by the fact that Likud was formed from the membership of Irgun/Etzel

http://www.etzel.org.il/english/

Marilyn,

If arab/persian society is so very wonderful and peaceloving and fair, why on earth are so many refugees that you support, coming from these societies? Why should those who follow the rules and wait their turn be condemned to death, due to the actions of those who try and jump the line? Yes I know they have terrible stories, what of it, they are refugees, it goes with the territory, but what of those legitimate refugees who die, because they were not given refuge, because of those who tried to get around the system?

What of the third world conditions on Aboriginal communities? Why on earth should I care about those from overseas when I see with my own eyes the coming geonicide from petrol sniffing in central australia? Charity starts at home, and with limited funds available for it, I DO NOT CARE one iota for those who cannot/will not follow the procedures.

Inshallah

2bob

Opinion polls show that more than 90 per cent of Israelis approve strongly of the war and almost as many also approve of attacking civilian targets. Yet underlying the chorus of bravado and jingoism in recent days was a rising note of unease. - Ed O'Loughlin, AGE, August 12 2006.

Savage Pencil do you think I say those things without a trace of evidence? Ed is reputeable, he is there in Lebanon and he has seen that atrocities for himself.

Thankfully the vast majority of Australian's want a ceasefire - 80%, Palestine/Irsael solved - 83%, and no peace keepers to help out Israel - 51%. The Israelis of course have accepted the terms of the UN peace keeping force but continue to murder civilians.

I do not and will not ever support a country that supports the massacres of civilians we have seen in the Lebanon in a stinking war of aggression that was planned over a year ago with British and American approval against a civilian population who had done nothing wrong.

Barbarous savages is all we can call a population that wants to murder civilians. But then we only have to look at what we have done in Iraq - a nation with no army, airforce or navy and a population comprising 53% children.

Bombed them to bits without cause, based on lies, just because that moron Bush said so.

Now there is the civil war we all predicted and a new "terror" alert in London has been "foiled" without a trace of evidence ever being submitted that such a plot existed and the racist media lap it up as fact - just because they put the word 'muslim' to the fore.

Madness and lunacy prevail.

No Inahallah 2bob,

You see the Israeli settlements in Palestine would constitute 'a state within a state'. Can't have that now can we. Israel have set the precedent for dealing with that situation in Southern Lebanon...haven't they?

Those settlements are illegal if they try to claim the land as Israel's. Check the Geneva Convention. If that situation arises Palestine will be entitled to use such force as necessary to reclaim it's sovernity over those areas. Isn't that the Israeli argument with Hezbollah and Lebanon?

You Israeli propagandists really are so short sighted you fall over your own stupid rationalisations.

By the way I am pressuring various organisations and people to take up the fight to have those IDF officers involved in giving the orders for the bombing(Precision) of that building in Qana to be taken to the International Court to be tried for War Crimes. You've been the inspiration for that. Thanks.

Have you seen the latest UN resolution? It was adopted unanimously.
Result: The situation returns to exactly as it was prior to the Israeli invasion...Israel has to return to it's borders and there is no guarantee those two soldiers will be returned. There is no guarantee Hezbollah will be disarmed. There is a guarantee the disputed Shaba Fields 10 square klms will be settled. And probably in favour of Lebanon

You must be bitterly disappointed the 'invincible' IDF has been defeated by Hezbollah and Israel will be forced by the US to accept the terms of the embarassing cease fire and withdrawal resolution in the UN.

Oh and world opinion has changed to disadvantage the bullies in the region...forever.

Have a nice day

Marilyn Shepherd “It's the same old lunacy from Leigh and Sage…”

“The government of Lebanon is mainly Sunni and Christian for pete's sake.”

The point is, the government of Lebanon, in deciding not to control/contain/ disarm the terrorists actions initiated off its own soil is “COMPLICIT” by default in the outcome.

Who would be a fault if Australia were to allow an anti-New Zealand force to attack parts of New Zealand and do nothing to disarm or (preferably) imprison them? – I bet you would be the first to scream for John Howard to do something, hypocrite

Leigh and Sage post no lunacy.

“Disproportionate war”, as I suggested on another thread, is merely a weasel word expression invented by those who would seek a politically manipulated criticism of Israel’s defensive actions.

The actions of the medieval Shiite Muslims, who are turning Iran into a cesspool of religious intolerance and would, aided by the bloodied nosed Syrians, see Hezbollah inflict a similar fate befall Lebanon are the real actions of lunatics.

Your “disproportionate” criticism of people who disagree with your minority view is, likewise, where more lunacy reigns.

If it were me or my brother who was being held hostage by these troll Hezbollah terrorists, I would expect my government to do everything possible to secure his/my release, “proportionality” having nothing to do with it.

War is “ABSOLUTE”, it always should be or one is merely beckoning the enemy to grow stronger under the limited impact of a “proportional” reaction – and that is, in military terms, tactical “lunacy”.

There is no point in leaving a crippled enemy to be held up as a martyr and incite others to more aggression. The only way of dealing with a terrorist enemy like Hezbollah is to destroy it and the source of the malignancy - and that ultimately is Iran and Syria. I would suggest those two countries are asking for everyone to "bring it all on" and I would suggest we oblige them, the sooner the better. No limited action, no proportional offensive, just an absolute victory (for "western" values)

Keith,

What I and the majority of Israeli's are stunned at, is the absence of 100,000+ demonstrations and protests, like was expected at about week 1. I suggest that this was planned upon, and the leftist leadership of Israel were taken off guard by the fact that it did not eventuate, which means that the majority of western opinion really does not care one jot or tittle for how many lebanese are killed or who by.

Perhaps this is the result of the post-911, 7/7, Bali, latest London attack, world, in which so many people are now frightened of being blown up by a lunatic with a bomb and a grudge, in short, the population (or a major part thereof) of the western nations (whose opinions count) don't care, providing Israel with a veritable carte blanche. This I suggest is the meaning of Kofi Annan's statement that he is upset that a ceasefire was not forced upon Israel weeks ago.

Also, you missed my point, I argued that thanks to the current precedent, in which Hizbollah acted, but lebanon was not responsible, Israel could arm the settlers with offensive weapons and allow them to start wars with their neighbours, whenever they choose, basically to do whatever they please. The UN has shown that it sides with those who help themselves, irrespective of International Law, so be it.......

When one is not protected by International Law, one is not subject to it, which is especially useful in concert with the carte blanche (paragraph 2) provided by the International Community.

Buckle up, boys and girls, it is time to play hardball...

Inshallah

2bob

The bigots in this thread have rekindled my national shame.

Xenophobes-r-us.

Shame.

Well, whadyaknow, Strewthie? For the first time on OLO you were actually right about something. Syria is not a land locked country. That must have given you a warm inner glow.

My problem is that I am fed up of morons like your god self attacking my country, my people, my culture and my allies, so I am having a lot of fun tossing the puerile arguments of people like you right back in your faces. It’s really funny, ya know. All of you trendy lefties are so up yourselves trying to display to us Great Unwashed how morally and intellectually superior you are, that you can’t be bothered actually figuring out if the arguments that you parrot from the likes of John Pilger and the employees of the ABC Soviet are even true. . This makes people like you easy meat. And boy, aren’t you screaming?

Music to my ears.

I know that there are a lot of young people who read and contribute on OLO, and I intend to verbally grab people like you by the scruff of the neck, hold you up to the light, and display to our brainwashed youth what a bunch of transparent stooges all of you are. This I hope will stimulate some neuronal activity among our young and help them to understand what hogwash people like you are feeding them.

Oh, and your spelling of “Strewth” is incorrect. Australians spell it as “Struth”. That is because it actually means “God’s truth.” If you were lucky enough to be born white and came from a superior culture like the British, you would have known that.

Salaam.

Love it when you talk like that, red.

Redneck

I am arguing a case in a similar fashion to Strewth. However I'm also white, liberal, don't believe in any particular God, detest the violence of the Islamists and regularly question the beliefs that produce such, support the rights of soverign nations, reasonably intelligent, well educated (well by your apparent standard, or lack thereof, anyway), against and detest violence, reasonably transparent but no stooge and quite frankly would find any attempt by you to grab me by the scruff of the neck and hold me up for intellectual examination absolutely laughable.

I don't think Strewth either moronic or a God, as you suggested, but he sure is with his thoughtfulness closer to her and futher from a moronic state than you with your, displayed bigotry, sneaking mysogeny, out and out xenophobia and plain closed mindedness.

You should work on those failings ...you know.

Col,Iran has one of the biggest and well trained armies in the world.They have a pop of 80+ million.There is no way the US would engage in a ground war against them.Yes they are feral but the US should not have backed that dictator Ayatollah Khomeini.Why didn't they bring democracy to Iran when they had the chance?

The US foreign policy in the Middle East has been a disaster from the start.Israel is just creating more sympathisers in Lebanon for hezbollah.The US have made a mess of Iraq which is on the verge of civil war.There are not enough troops in Iraq to quell the violence and the only way they are going to tackle these lunatic Iranians is with nuclear weapons.

The US are now locked into being in Iraq for decades,since now that Saddham is gone there is no one strong enough to control the Sunnies,Kurds or the Sh-tes.[NB. OLO won't recognise that last religion and considers it be a profanity.Maybe they are right.]

If the US leave Iraq,Iran could quickly take over Iraq and be the most powerful country in the Middle East.They could dictate to the rest of the world not only the price of energy but how we must behave.It is a mess of ignorant,stupid religion,the power of oil and poor US foreign policy.

The best way for us to tackle it is to go for alternatives such as natural gas and become independant of the Middle East.The US should do likewise.Why are we selling all our gas to China cheaply and importing oil?There is no method in the madness.

REDDY

if you have a few bikie mates who are peacefully 'robust' and not prone to aggression, (but willing to lawfully self defend) so to speak, you might suggest they (and you ?) attend the PROTEST RALLY at the State Library next saturday (Melbourne) at 1.00pm to counter the 'RESISTANCE' flunkies with some balanced information.

Its a 'Stop the War' demo with total blame allocated to Israel.

I will (am intending) provide the balance in the form of a pictorial account of the Damour Massacre by the PLO in 1976 complete with images of the slain and dying children...

The Rally is being organized by RESISTANCE in association with the MELBOURNE PALESTINE SOLIDARITY NETWORK. Just ur typical socialist idiots who are using the Muslims/Palestinians for their own advantage.

A few hefty guys would probably prevent me getting my head kicked in :) I've told my sons to visit me in hospital.

If I'm there, I'll have a head protector and a chest/rib protector on.
I have a feeling a few of them might see 'Red' when confronted with the evil of the PLO that they apparently think does not exist.

Confirmed.. I just rang 'Resistance' who had their planning meeting this afternoon, they will meet at the State Library and march to the Liberal party H/Q.

I hope my pictures of the PLO genocide make it onto the news...
The poster is like this

THE PLO
butchers at Damour Lebanon in 1976

(picture)

DID THIS !

Now that's what I call 'balance'.
Looking at what the Palestinians did in Jordan, and Lebanon, its not untrue to say "If Israel was 'bad' the PLO is much WORSE"

PS last night there were some hooded thug like characters outside my place with flags on poles.. weird.

Keith, Marilyn & Co,

For those who fail to recognise that the government of Lebanon and Hizbollah are one and the same, please read this:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3290107,00.html

Israel's existence is now threatened by a wider threat than simply Hizbollah, despite suggestions that if they ceased-fire that they would live peacefully (suprise, suprise):

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3290303,00.html

On the plus side, the opinion in Israel is now swinging far to the right, much to the discomfort of Peres (who should now join Rabin, along with Olmert & Peretz):

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3290351,00.html

Who praises the ceasefire, which apparently will stop Hizbollah's aggression, although Hizbollah, despite agreeing, has stated:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3290134,00.html

Which presumably includes the Shaba/Sheba issue, which is not even on the agenda.

Therefore there will be a much wider war, but fortunately, the post-911,7/7,Bali(1&2),Mumbay,etc. world no longer cares, if they choose to hide amongst civilians, Israel will kill them and the civilians, there is no serious international pressure.

Well done, those who look for peace between the two groups, you have laid the stage for a much larger, wider and more terrible war. PLEASE may you suffer in it directly.

Inshallah

2bob

Inshallah 2bob sounds very much like a sore loser.

It is interesting talking to people casually when meeting them during walks. We tend to find two types of people, those rather fixated in their thoughts, and usually giving a nod rather than gooday.

It was interesting to meet a Liverpool Englishman, and noticing I had on a Fremantle Dockers cap worn mostly that day because the previously rather erratic Fremantle Dockers had just won their sixth match running putting them fifth from the top in the sixteen team ladder and getting near the finals.

Was asked why I backed the Dockers, and said because I came from the bush, enjoyed backing the battlers.

It was so interesting the Lebanon crisis came up and without argument we both agreed that because Hezbollah and the Lebanese seemed to be losers or typical battlers, we both understood how so many might back Hezbollah, because the Israelies though a small nation, now have so much sophisticated equipment, mostly American, and including nuclear, there was no chance in the end that they could lose.

Though the Israelies certainly still have their worries, they seem so ruthlessly efficient and unremorseful that it is hard to feel sorry for them like we so much did when they first resettled in their so-called Promised Land

2 bobwatch:

Lebanon & Hezbollah "one & the same"? For Lebanon's sake I bwell hope so. But for Hezbollah, your war criminals would never have been booted out of Lebanon in 2000. But for Hezbollah, they'd be all the way to Beirut and perpetrating who knows how many more war crimes there. But if you're really into "one and the same", how about the United States of Israel? 'Praise the Lord and pass the cluster bombs (and don't forget the $3 billion per annum, thank you).'

On a purely human level. One thing is becoming abundantly clear.

The incursion into Lebanon was not strong enough at the beginning.
The weaponry and training of Hezbollah are proving tough for small scale warfare.

This is but a 'deposit' or downpayment of the future if it is not dealt with 100% NOW......

This leaves the only sure solution (again I emphasize...on a purely human level) of total destruction or displacement of the South Lebanese population to Syria. (Non Muslims excepted)

Clearly, no matter how far they are pushed, as long as they can inhabit the land, they will stubbornly persist in seeking bigger and better armaments, and Israel must decide once and for all,

"Do we want to live under this threat" ?

If the answer is 'no' then there is only one course which will work. Sadly.

The only other alternative which will bring peace is for Israel to fall on its sword and die or pack it's bags.

This tragic situation is not one where we outsiders can find a 'Good Guy' ... the only person we can find is a winner.

BECOMING BETTER INFORMED.

1/ I recommend all posters inform themselves with the history of the Lebanese civil war, Wikipaedia is a good start.

2/ PLO, read up on how it acted while in exile in Jordan, (trying to take over the country) and then Lebanon. Again, Wikipaedia is a good source.

Check out this link for more on what the PLO is really like.

http://www.geocities.com/damour1976/photo.html

There is a rally in support of these murderers on Saturday 19th Aug (Next Saturday) at 1.00pm at the State Library (Melbourne) Why not roll up and challenge them ?

DB you are appalling. The land you want to cleanse is Lebanese and is not the land of Israel. How dare you put up this vile stuff?

We know who the PLO were, we know who Hezbollah are, we know who they all are. We are not brainless morons.

Israel has a huge army, it is not under threat. All this anti-muslim, kill 'em, murder them stuff is nauseating for people like me who just want them to stop killing each other.

How dare you?

Well I look at it this way.
Hezbollah want to kill the people of Israel.
Israel want to kill Hezbollah.
I am amazed that the media can only find innocent women and children to run in their stories.
I want to see the battle plans.
I want to see the strategies of each side.
Why can’t the media show us exactly what the men are doing – presumably more than just killing innocent women and children?
And what does it have to do with us anyway?
When groups are at war, let them fight it out to see who wins.
Why spoil it with a cease fire?

Marilyn Shepherd

You can smother me with me kisses, you can smother me with dreams. You can always be the mistress of my schemes. ...

Actually I don't want you to be the mistress of my schemes - it's a yukky thought.

But I note that in a previous post you said the following about Israelis: "Barbarous savages is all we can call a population that wants to murder civilians."

Hmmm, isn't this the kind of wild, absurd generalisation that you are prone to decry from others who disagree with you?

Keith,

How is wishing you the same that you obviously wish me and mine being a bad loser?

Did you even read the links?

Did you see that the lies that I have previously pointed out, were admitted by Siniora and Nasrallah? Did you not see what Nasrallah is trying to incite? Do you seek to continue to advocate his vision for the middle east, knowing that it will inevitably lead to a massive war, some thousands, and perhaps if it goes nuclear, some millions of times worse within 5 years?

He is trying to incite the Arab/Persian world to attack Israel in force, do you not comprehend what this means? OR are you actually evil, or just a maladjusted psychopathic loser?

Do you not understand that this places the world into the most dangerous situation it has ever been in since Kennedy & Krutschev’s tete-a-tete regarding Cuba?

Do you understand what this result means to the Lebanese who have spoken out against Hizbollah?

Quite frankly Strewth, please stop encouraging this child, you appear to be mature enough to appreciate the danger this planet is now in….

And for those that think Israel is doomed, the world best hope that it is not:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/indepth_coverage/military/proliferation/countries/israel.html

http://www.cdi.org/issues/nukef&f/database/isnukes.html

This war was lost due to the inept strategies adopted by Kadima, not due to lack of ability of the IDF. However, Israel and America are both to introduce weapons designed to defeat the tactics adopted by such an unprincipled and cowardly enemy (including utter disregard for their civilians, the world does not care):

http://www.wired.com/news/conflict/0,2100,58094,00.html

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/blu-118.htm

This war was lost when Olmert/Peretz decided to proceed without forces on the ground, then to adopt the recently discarded ‘proportionate’ incursions. This will hopefully lead to his replacement, I suggest Mr Netanyahu would be appropriate, and given past form, I suspect that the next installment may consist of a massive pre-emptive strike, I wonder who on?

Hang on, Keith are you by any chance in the age bracket likely to be conscripted?

Also, where on earth does the idea that Israel 'HATES' Lebanon come from?

Inshallah

Aaron

"Just exchange prisoners"
"- Why is the Israeli government ‘democratically’ detaining more than 20,000 Lebanese indefinitely and without charge?"

Who are those prisoners?

First, what about dropping at least 3 zeroes: according to the following: http://www.arabmediawatch.com/amw/Articles/Analysis/tabid/75/newsid395/2946/Lebanese-prisoners-in-Israel/Default.aspx
the correct number is 4, plus some 25 Lebanese citizens convicted for ordinary criminal offenses.

Out of the four, one is convicted of espionage (and has taken up Israeli citizenship), one is charged of operations against Israel, another is a Hezbullah MP, but the primary person that Hezbullah really seek to release is Samir Kuntar, who murdered 4 Israelis in cold blood, including a father and a little girl at their home, smashing her head. When he attacked that family-home, the mother managed to hide, but she had to choke to death her other 2-year-old daughter so that she does not cry and disclose their presence. He was given 4 consecutive life sentences -
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewForeignBureaus.asp?Page=/ForeignBureaus/archive/200607/INT20060718b.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samir_Kuntar

Having made a personal promise to the Kuntar family, Nasrallah is obsessed and will never stop, no matter what happens to Lebanon, until his murderer friend is released... or until he himself takes the trip to hell.

Holy cow,

You're an advocate for Nuclear attack. You're really not the full quid...are you 2bob?

You don't bomb people you love or respect. You don't bomb people who have not attacked you. You do those things when love, respect and democracy are replaced by hate.

You attacked a fellow democracy, Lebanon, under the guise of attacking Hezbollah, and tried to usurp not only it's territory but also it's sovergnity. You failed and were beaten by an army adopting tactic's suited to defeating such aggression. You learned nothing from the lessons of Vietnam.

The world told you to stop.

The US gave you your directions...and watch how eagerly you heros jump to the yankee tune.
The Yanks won't let you use your nuclear weapons. Wiser heads will prevail than the Israeli's, if you are indicative of the general Israeli population's attitudes.

I stopped reading your 'research' once I realised you kept changing the loonie tune to suit circumstances.

Long term, war will not occur, peace will reign. What'll occur is Israel will be returned and confined to it's pre'67 borders as per UN resolution 242. The Yanks will be forced by world opinion, to make you comply. The militants among the Arabs will lose support because most of the Palestinian problem will be solved with that simple action.

All that remains will be the enforcement of UN resoluton 192. Eh mate?

Here is some logic for you to ponder.

If you think me 'evil, or just a maladjusted psychopathic loser' or both, then you go on ask me if I am of an 'age bracket likely to be conscripted', given that your experience with conscription is limited to the IDF. THEN it follows you think conscripts in the IDF are evil, or just maladjusted psychopathic losers or both.

And that about sums up in every way your attitude and approach. Hopefully there are wiser and more cluey heads than yours in Israel.

Finally the IDF rush to the Litani is seen for the Monty Pythonesque exercise it was. Laughable really.

Have a nice life, warmonger.

Arjay, I take your point however, Iran is its own worst enemy. One way or another, the writ of their current political authority will likely be over before the end of the decade.

DB – I am sorely tempted to heckle the rabble who will doubtless turn up to show solidarity with terrorists. However, I could plan to have my toe nails trimmed on that day (a far more important matter than heckling the impotent) and I would not wish to obscure the police cameras as the take holiday snap of the trolls.

As for the PLO – you are correct, expelled from Jordan on the basis of their disruptive influence on that nations stability. The only commitment Arafat has ever kept is to stay buried now he is dead (I guess it is a long way back up from that particularly level in hell which he now resides).

If you can muster a “you are appalling” (with 2 “L”s) from dear Marilyn, you cannot be doing too badly.

Marilyn “We are not brainless morons.” In your case I am sure the jury are still out on that one

It is all a bit much.
over 3000 years ago the Assyrians invaded Israel, as the northern part of today's Israel was known. There have been repeated invasions over the millenia so whats the point of worrying about it ?
It won't be solved in our time I guess.
I am not sure just where the Arabs came from, somewhere north east of the middle east I believe somewhere around 200 ad I think.
They moved in after the Romans expelled the Jews and are surprised when they came back.
The only problem that I can see is the lack of backbone of the Lebonese Government to control the organisation of the surrogate's of a foreign government. It would be like the Australian Government allowing an organisation operating on behalf of say the Malaysian Government to harris the PNG government over timber rights from Australian territory.

Even with a resolution for peace Israel will keep on killing. Israelis just see Arabs as 'untermenschen' and their deaths as inconsequential.

At least some good news though - Joe Lieberman was disendorsed by the Democrats. What a buzz. Could it be that the Americans are finally working out who is responsible for the mess in the Mid East? Maybe it's time the Zionist lobby in the US started putting US interests above Israel's. With their enormous wealth and power it's probably a pipe dream, but at least it's something.

Marilyn
you are not reading my posts......

"Humanly speaking"........ did you 'get' that ?

I've outlined HUMAN solutions, to human problems. That which 'works' and that which does not.

Such outlining as I've done, is based on history.

Such solutions are without question only necessary because of mankind's alienation from the Creator.

The parable of the good Samaritan shows this fact. A hated Samaritan helps a Jew on the side of the road, while the Priest and Levite walk on the other side of the bleeding man in disgust and revulsion.

This is indeed key to the solution to the dilemna of human conflict.

While you may portray and perceive my human solutions as 'appalling' and refer to 'Lebanese land'.. to me its just 'land' and the people are what determine how the soceo geographical management of that land should proceed.

If those living there continually hurl rockets are another country, then... its just possible that the other country will ultimately get 'pissed off' enough to deal decisively with them. Half hearted measures won't work because of the IDEAS driving Hezbollah and Hamas.
They would both view Palestine as an 'Islamic Waqf' (look this up)
While they retain this view, no amount of 'roadmap' or peacedeal will have any lasting impact.

http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html

Article 9 Hamas Charter:
As to the objectives: discarding the evil, crushing it and defeating it, so that truth may prevail, homelands revert [to their owners], calls for prayer be heard from their mosques, announcing the reinstitution of the Muslim state. Thus, people and things will revert to their true place.

Article 11

This is the status [of the land] in Islamic Shari’a, and it is similar to all lands conquered by Islam by force, and made thereby Waqf lands upon their conquest, for all generations of Muslims until the Day of Resurrection.

Note the key words...'CONQUERED BY ISLAM BY FORCE'.... and think.

I for one, will oppose this:
Personally.
Politically.
Socially.
Spiritually.

MISUNDERSPINNING

Misunderspinning and misunderwinning: The US and Israel Don't Get It This Time
By John E. Carey
August 14, 2006

President Bush is known for his malapropisms. Some are merely ascribed to the president; he doesn’t hold the copyright.

“Strategery,” became the title of a book.

But these buzzwords tell us a lot of how the people in popular culture view their leaders and their world.

President Bush said on Monday, August 14, 2006, the first day of the cease fire with Hezbollah, that the "responsibility for this suffering lies with Hezbollah."

"There's going to be a new power in the south of Lebanon," Bush said.

"Lebanon can't be a strong democracy when there is a state within a state and that's Hezbollah," Bush said.

We might assign the new word "misunderspinning" to President Bush right now. If he believes any one of those three statements he is very badly advised or just does not understand the Arab world.

First: Responsibility. Arabs, and all the Lebanese, are blaming the droppers of the bombs, Israel, and the provider of the bombs, the US.

Second: New Power. Who? The UN? Since when? Hezbollah is the people of southern Lebanon. They collect taxes, provide welfare, sit in the congress.

Lebanon as a strong democracy. Oh really? People who are familiar with Lebanaon doubt that it is as many in the west believe. Lebanon is an Islamic state now.

Now for Israel, my word is: “misunderwinning.”

Israeli leaders are claiming tremendous gains, if not outright victory on one side of the border, and issuing a veiled threat on the other.

To continue reading, go to:

http://extendedremarks.blogspot.com/2006_08_02_extendedremarks_archive.html

or go to:
http://peace-and-freedom.blogspot.com/

People like Marilyn Sheppard will only look at the immediate emotional reality of people being injured but never at the reality of what brought the Middle East to such a calamity in the first place.They are incapable of looking at the big picture because it interfers with their ideology and political allegiences.

If the US wasn't there,who would secure the vital oils supplies to the rest of the world?Would China or Zimbabwe do a better job?

I'm no Israelie apologist,however I don't have to put up with the constant suicide bombings in my country nor the constant threats of annilhilation from a facist religious philosophy that wants to impose such ignorance and subjugation on the rest of the world.The Jihadists are more evil than Adolph Hitler.

It is about time that the Fundi Muslims learnt their place.

"I'm no Israelie [sic] apologist, however..." These guys are a laugh a minute.

Strewth, please edify us on your solution to the Middle East dilemma.I await with bated breath,since we have a lot of left wing critics such as yourself who display venemous disapproval of the present status quo,yet offer us no workable solutions that will keep the oil flowing,and the terrorists at bay.

Even The title of this article is in itself biased: "do Lebanon's failings justify the scale and intensity of the israeli assault?" How can you even start adressing this subject solely pointing at Lebanon's "failings" without menctioning Israel's continuous failings to withdraw from illegaly occupied palestinian and lebanese lands as a deeper root of the present conflict?!
Also,may I remind you that terrorism has been historically used by zionists to colonize Palestine. Am I making this up?
Here's a brief timeline of the crimes commited by some of the zionist terror gangs against the palestinians and even the brits in the years prior to 1948:
http://guardian.150m.com/palestine/jewish-terrorism.htm

In Lebanon the people are forced to set up tents if they can get anywhere near the rubble of their villages.

In Israel some are setting up tours of the "warzone" of Kyriat Shimona to show the world the suffering of the Jews.

Somehow with so little damage done, with all the roads, bridges, towns and cities fully functioning I don't think the tours will tug at the heart strings of decent people quite as much as looking across the border and seeing the total demolition job done by the Israelis.

The question we here in Australia have to ask ourselves is just what on earth would justify Israel going on such a rampage just because people dared to fight back?

Ed O'Loughlin and others say it is because the much vaunted IDF is impotent because they had only had 5 years of persecuting and killing unarmed Palestinians in their own homes.

Even now the Israelis are bombing Palestiinian homes for no reason.

It has to stop and true friends of Israel would be forcing them to stop the slashing, burning and killing of innocent people.

AS for Bush, he is barely functional above the level of a man with an IQ of 3.

Very droll, Col Rouge - but would you really want to take me on to see if I really am a moron?

Arjay,

You and yours wouldn't recognise a "workable solution" if it hit you in the face. As for the rest, there's been an international consensus for yonks: Israel to lift its siege of Gaza & withdraw completely to the 1949 Green Line, allowing for the creation of a Palestinian state; Israel to withdraw completely from the Golan Heights; Israel to withdraw completely from Lebanon; Israel to repatriate all Palestinian refugees, granting them full citizenship rights. All of which morality and international legality demand.

That should indeed get the oil flowing (is your 4WD getting too expensive to run?). As for keeping "terrorists at bay" we conscript the world's chickenhawks - yourself, Boaz, Horus, sganot, logic and the rest of the crew - into a special squad to be dropped behind enemy lines when required.

I'm with you Strewth.

I'd even offer to find then a militarist multi-demoninational Chaplin who knows both the NT and OT by heart and all its various intrepretations.

That would surely drive the terrorists mad and fleeing for some sanity.

Strewth,

Neither Ahmadenijad, Nasrallah or Hamas will ever accept your "workable-solution". It was tried not once before. Israel made several offers along those lines, but they were all rejected. Israel would be happy to give those cursed territories to moderate Arabs - but there are none in sight (except Egypt and Jordan who, being wise, refuse to go anywhere near): due to the undemocratic nature of Islamic society, it is always the extremists in control while moderates cower, and the extremists will rest at nothing short of wiping Israel (or any other non-Arab/Persian entity) off the map. In fact they will not stop there either - look at Iraq: the day after Israel is gone, strong Shiite Iran will send weak Suni Palestinians and Suni Lebanese to the gas chambers, and after that - country-by-country, Europe, Australia... A strong Israel is the only thing preventing the middle east and ultimately the whole world, from looking like Ruwanda and Bosnia.

If you think that those terrorists care the least about the Palestinians, your are very deluded. They only need them for propaganda, they only need them when they are poor and miserable, so they can show their wounds to the world. You claim to be humanist, but there is nothing further from humanism than those terrorists.

I am sad for innocent Palestinians and Lebanese, but until they are able to shake off their Islamic dictators, or allow Israel to do it for them, they will have to continue suffering.

Yuyu, we've been through all of this before, haven't we? So I'll be justifiedly blunt. Neither Israel nor yourself have an iota of interest in a solution, workable or otherwise, to the ME conflict. How dare you (and the rest of the Zionist cheer squad) continue to insult us with your lies, delusions and prejudices: your nonsense about so-called Israeli peace "offers" and lack of peace partners, your disgusting, paranoid Islamophobia, and your twisted apocalyptic fantasies about Israel being wiped off the map and Jews being driven into the sea. Haven't you noticed that it's only you and your dwindling band of Zionist zealots believe in this nonsense any more? Haven't you noticed the world's collective rolling of the eyes whenever you regurgitate this tripe? Yuyu, it simply doesn't work any more.

Strewth, I am not a zionist zealot, and indeed as you say, zionist zealots are a dwindling band, also in Israel. What you get instead are ordinary, reasonable and realistic people who just want to get on with their normal life, as individuals, as families and as a nation.

(One caveat: usually zealots dwindle over time, but when Israel is attacked and terrorized as in the last month, for a while it actually helps them increase their ranks and thwarts government efforts to control them)

Israel is eager for a solution. [Except for a headache-inducing zealot minority group,] Israelis want to live pecaefully at least as Australians and any other nation, but sometimes one has to call a spade a spade: if this is not possible, then one has to admit it and get on with life without it, accepting the need to be prepared for war as part of life, and that inevitably from time-to-time, Israelis will be called to defend their country, suffer painful casualties and be harassed and offended by people like you.

Strewth,you and Marilyn refuse to acknowledge the reality of the world's dependency on Middle East oil.Certainly US foreign policy has been attrocious,however the oil must flow or there will be another world war.

US foreign policy is feeding the Islamic Facists.Had the US premoted democracy 60 yrs ago instead of the backing ruthless dictators,they would not be in the quagmire that they are experiencing now.That said,the US are the best mediating influence we have in the world today.The UN is too corrupt and gutless and Europe just lets the US do all the dirty work in securing the oil for their comfortable lifestyles,while it snipes from the sidelines because it is hamstrung by it's own Islamist Fundies who will go tropo at the slightest provocation.

Now put aside your ranting bile and tell us how you would keep the peace,keep the oil flowing and stop the Fundi Muslims from seeking the destruction of Israel.

Good for you Arjay, except when we peaceniks said the Iraqi invasion was only about the oil we were howled down. Seems with the price of oil doubling instead of going down to the $20 a barrel that Murdoch predicted that we were right.

Hmmmm....Then we get to whether Hamas or Nasrullah care about the people of Palestine and Lebanon. Well Hamas's political and social welfare group is trying to restore water, food and electricity that the Israelis blew up to collectively punish the Palestinians - again.

Nasrullah is funding each bombed out Lebanese family with $15,000 US, which is vastly more than our government has done for the victims of Cyclone Larry I believe.

As the US helped to plan this catastrophe and inflict it on the Lebanese as a trial run for Iran they should be forced to pay for the appalling damage we are seeing in towns and villages all over the south of Lebanon.

Marilyn I was totally against the invasion of Iraq and like many others predicted it would be their next Vietnam.They have not replaced Saddham with a better regime.Iraq with it's religious fundies looks like decending into chaos.This is not good for the stability of The Middle East or the rest of the World.US foreign policy has been disgusting,it has just created more terrorists,however the Muslim Facists are a far worse alternative.If they had the nuclear weapons of the US or Israel,they would not hesitate in using them on their enemies.

The US is a rapidly diminishing world power and China who doesn't have a good human rights track record would take the Middle East in the blink of an eye,if not for the might of the US.China with its population and the military might of the US,could control the entire planet,dictating to us how and where we should live.There needs to be a balance of power that controls the undemocratic forces on this planet which far outnumber the democracies of the West.

Sucking up to Muslim Facists will not make the world a better place.Bush used Sept 11 for kinds of stupidity and only created more terrorists.The West needs to consolidate its forces and wisdom,as it did during WW2 and confront the forces of Facism whether they be communist or religious.It is time that the European countries also contributed to world stability instead of being comfortable arm chair critics.If we don't fight for our freedoms,they will cease to exist,as in Afghanistan,Saudi Arabia,Zimbabwe and the once mighty USSR.

Yutusu

I'm one of those who used to blindly support Isreal.

Strewth's right things have changed...since Arafat's death...You've lost the propaganda war. To win you've got to but cannot replace arafat with another arafat.

The Palestinians chose democracy. I listened and accepted their right to chose Hamas. You blokes never accepted their right to chose. You persuaded the US not to accept Hamas. You started a war because of that fact.

You lost futher support when you went to war against another Arab nation that had also chosen democracy.

I questioned my support for Israel during and as a consequense of those actions.

I love democracy and will support it's 'budding' anywhere. If you or Israel had such a love, especially when budding among your perceived enemies, you and they would have supported it's budding...however unfavourable it appeared at first to Israelis' interests.

You people should have realised Hamas and Hezbollah were accountable not to you and your weapons but to their own people...at the ballot box.

Those ideas lead me to think Israel doesn't accept or love democracy as I and the free world.

A big question mark hangs not over Iran, Syria, Hezbollah, or and particularly the Palestinians or Hamas, it hangs over Israel for it's attempt to usurp the democracy occurring in Palestine and Lebanon.

We in the free world take those things seriously...you misjudged that.



I'm leaving this discussion now.