oh please what utter tripe, Zionist are as much to blame as the Islamist.

Kenny,

The fact that you are ignoring is that the Islamists are also attacking us, in places such as Bali, and are determined to attack the west wherever they can. The incident of the Danish cartoons showed just how widespread the hatred of the west is all over Islam.

I can only assume that if you were commenting on World War 2, you would claim that the Allies were just as much to blame as the Nazis.

The great majority of Australians would consider because of this that in this struggle Israel is our ally, and Hezbollah and its ilk are our enemy.

The problem with the "stopping evil" rhetoric is that both sides can legitimately claim to hold the mandle of the good guy(s).

Religion and politics, combined makes for a toxic brew.

http://weekbyweek7.blogspot.com/

Oh please

You'd be better off explaining why Israel commits the same war crimes as Hezbollah and why you then excuse Israel but condemn Hezbollah?

Don't think because you say something everyone is going to believe you...especially when you ignore the wrongs of one side. Doh.

"So far, Israel enjoys three crucial strategic advantages in this war: unequivocal American support; a divided Arab world; and, most crucial of all, a united Israeli people."

Yep, so being the only nuclear power in the Middle East and the 6th biggest buclear power in the world counts for nothing. Neither does having more advanced weaponry (at rates subsudused by US taxpayers) than even Australia is irrelevant.

I wish far-right Israel-lovers would stop talking about Israeli terror as a "Jewish" phenomenon. There is nothing Jewish about incinerating children.

Keith,

I have previously explained to you that Israel has not committed any war crimes, or does the presumption of innocence mean nothing? I have also explained to you, that you argument was entirely specious, and devoid of merit. Unless you can advance a rather more robust argument in favour of your continued preoccupation with war crimes, please leave it to those who can understand statutory construction.

Israel fights for the same reason that Israel has always fought, for survival.

RE SHABA:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1153292016050&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

RE: Bombing villages after warning provided & sufficient time is given:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1153292016092&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Please pray that the IDF, the IAF in particular, can swiftly turn every defended village in South Lebanon into a large, stinking hole in the ground. Particularly Bint Jbail, the terrorrists capital.

Inshallah

2bob

Inshallah

2bob

2bob, in India, Muslims use the term "insh'Allah" (i.e. God-willing) in 2 sense. One sense is in its proper religious connotation - that everything that happens in the future is the will of God.

But the 2nd sense is as if to say that one is bullsh#tting and then blaming it on God.

Which I suspect is appropriate to your posts on this subject.

Any argument that unequivocally dismisses a people as 'evil' deserves to be dismissed. Remember the simple adage 'there's two sides to every story'? it's a shame that world leaders in the middle east appear to have forgotten that one entirely.

Israelis are doing their utmost to paint themselves as guilt free, eminently reasonable sorts, and hezbollah as evil terrorists.

These comments have some truth to them... though they also have a hell of a lot of lies.

For instance... hezbollah is not merely some fanatical puppet of Iran - yes they've indulged in violent practices, but they also perform community services and provide and succour to the poor - if you've got a problem with that comment, take it up with TIME magazine.

This article also conveniently ignores the decades Israelis occupied areas of lebanon.

Here's a fanciful thought for you - say Australia was mortal enemies with New Zealand, and the Kiwis had been occupying Tasmania for 18 years. If one of our rather radical political parties, lets say, the greens, rallied an army and managed to kick them out, a task that our defence force had been unable to do... wouldn't you have at least some fondness for the greens at the next election?
Here's your reason why Hezbollah has a presence in the Lebanese parliament.
What would really piss you off, would be the western world telling you you shouldn't have greens parliamentarians, merely because the western world favours the kiwis.

This is of course a stupid comparison. But this is a stupid war, that has been going on for years.

Don't ever assume one side is totally in the right.
That is never the case. One side can have more of a moral high ground - sure, it's a great thing the nazis were defeated in WW2 - but we know better than to pretend the allies were all heroes.
That would ignore the horrific bombing of Dresden, or Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Irfan,

wouldn't you agree that to blame any of this cr*p on god is bullsh*t?

But to address your post, it is such a wonderful saying, if god is responsible for everything, why then would anyone else be able to be blamed?

And Irfan, given the recent events in Bint Jbail, I do honestly believe that strongly defended locales should be avoided like the plague. If they are the source of rockets, post warning, they should be shelled into rubble, as they are defended locales. Neither infantry nor tanks should be sent into them.

This would leave the IDF to roam the countryside at will, Hizbollah would have to alter its tactics to attack them in the open, which would put the shoe fairly on the other foot, as in the open is where Israel wants them.

Inshallah

2bob

Why can´t Muslims admit that there is a terrible fanatic movement amongst them. This is in no way a criticism of Islam but of the abuse a particular group have made. After the defeat of the Taliban there was rejoicing in the streets, in Iran there is a strong anti government movement that is being supressed by terror.

The same happened when fanatics took over in the West. In Germany, in USSR, in Spain. This was not amongst Muslims.

There are fanatics on all three sides , yes three much of Us support comes not from the Jewish lobby but from the Christian right many of who a "rapture ready" have a little troll of the web if you don't know what I mean. the first step in any peaceful resolution is to admit your mistake. The current Israeli gov does think it's made any.
Just think where we might have been if a Jewish fanatic had not kill the peace making PM.

plerdsus I’ll give you a hint carpet bombing cities is terrorism no matter you is doing it. 30,000 Londoner's are just as bad as 30,000 Berliners.

To have peace you have to lay down your arms.

The Lebanese Prime Minister, Fouad Siniora, pleading for a ceasefire, asked: “Is the value of human rights in Lebanon less than elsewhere? Are we the children of a lesser God?”

In 1950, Gustave Gilbert, the US prison psychologist at the Nuremberg Trials wrote:

“One may react to injury or persecution of one’s own identification group with the same pain or hostility as if the injury had been inflicted on him and yet feel no concern for the same injuries inflicted on members of other groups. Thus sentiment could be aroused among Germans over the “persecution” of their Volksgenossen in Czechoslovakia and Austria, with impassioned humanitarian appeals, while many calmly witnessed the beating up of German Jews on the streets of their own cities. In a like manner, “white, American-born Protestants” can patriotically defend the humane “American way” in defiance of dictatorship, while feeling no concern over the mistreatment of racial minorities at their own back door.”

Israel and the US are able to accept the heavy civilian casualties in Lebanon because the Lebanese are not part of the Judae-Christian “identification group” – the Lebanese are indeed “children of a lesser God”!

Gilbert continued: “Many Germans and many Americans, when confronted with these inconsistencies in their professed behavior as decent citizens, recognise the inconsistency intellectually, but still find it difficult to modify their behavior. Insight is not sufficient to overcome the deeply rooted social conditioning of feelings.”
“As a general principle …. the normal social process of group identification and hostility-reaction brings about a selective constriction of empathy, which, in addition to the semi-conscious suppression of insight, enables normal people to condone or participate in the most sadistic social aggression without feeling of realising it.”

Irfan,

Over the past months I have been impressed by many of your posts, representing as you do the peaceful, responsible part of the muslim community.

Rather than just attacks on Israel, what I would love to hear from you is your suggestions as to how we resolve this intractable problem and provide for a peaceful prosperous life for all the people of the middle east.

Excellent post Jeff.

I fully support Israel, and identify Hezbollah as past of 'the enemy'. But what Israel is doing is surely wrong. Hundreds of dead civilians for what?

But no matter the evidence before my eyes I support Israel 100% because they are like me, and muslim arabs are not.

Sad World eh?

gw

Kenny

Neville Chamberlain tried that. It didn´t work.

England had no intention of bombing Germany but eventually it was the only way to stop the Germans bombing them.

Ideals are fine but experience is a hard teacher.

Kenny, I think you are right in pointing out the influence of dangerous Christian theology on American foreign policy. Dispensationalists see Israel as an essential pivot for a coming Apocalypse. "Almost all dispensationalists reject the idea that a lasting peace can be attained by human effort in the Middle East." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensationalism Thus, some in the US actually don't want peace, reading events in the ME through the prism of apocalyptic thought.

Logic, I find your comparison to Chamberlain's appeasement a little simplistic. Chamberlain desperately hoped to avoid another war, grimly aware of the slaughter it would unleash and Britain's unpreparedness. Britain used the time gained to massively re-arm and (just barely) held the Germans at bay in 1940-41.

Many of the causes of WWII can be traced back to WWI, that titanic clash of empires. Much of the current chaotic mess in the Middle East can likewise be traced back to the break-up of the Ottoman Empire in the wake of WWI and the reshaping of boundaries by Britain and France.

If war is the answer, then the question must have been pretty stupid.

JohnJ
amen indeed... "WWII can be traced back to WWI" etc.. I agree and disagree. You are right..but don't go far enough.

ALLLLLL of our present circumstances can be traced back to pivotal events, machiavellian intrigue, conflict over resources, hidden agendas, unconcienable persuasion of the masses, etc etc.. in short, we're part of a huge mess. But guess what.. the mud is on EVERY side of EVERY Dispute. Some sides have more going for them (morally)at some times such as now with Israel. "They were attacked"
But you say.. "What about occupation and prisoners and blah blah"
Each issue has 2 sides.

The most repulsive and despicable noises being made in all this are from the Left who seem to think there IS such a thing as a human way out of all this and from the Right who don't really care.

The Bible describes is as follows: "All...have sinned and fall short of the glory of God".

-The British, with their theft of Irish lands, Opium wars in China, Exploitation of Indian labor.
-The Americans with their Commodore Perry and gunboat diplomacy forcing Japan into opening its markets in 1850s (which of course led to Pearl Harbour) and territorial colonization of Phillipines.
-The Ottomans trying to take over all Europe being stopped at Vienna in 1683
-The Spanish Muslims trying the same from the other direction, being stopped at Tours in 722
-The Crimean war, Spanish Civil war.. Marxism with its failed 'theology' of mechanistic determinism and revolutions etc etc etc...
-Chairman Mao's 'cultural revolution/genocide'
-Stalins purges.
-Australias treatment of Aboriginals.
-Malaysia and Indonesia's treatment of Indigenous people.

Forgive me for saying so bluntly, but.. JESUS..IS.. THE WAY. (To a renewed society, through renewed people) but the kingdom of God is not 'of this world' so don't look for an ideal 'Christian State' it aint gonna happen.

On Israel, LOGIC pointed out in another thread that it has PEACE and GOOD relations with Jordan and Egypt...why ? simple, they have no 'Israel must be destroyed' agenda, in contrast to Hezbollah and Hamas.

My friends in the deli and fish shop, in the streets of my suburb and in the suburbs of my city are often from Lebanon. Some are Italian, some are Greeks, some Chinese and they all have one thing in common - none of them have murdered any Jews to my knowledge.

Should the family of my friends in the deli have their parents bombed to bits with cluster bombs, possibly phosphorous and DU dipped weapons by Israel because they were born on a particular piece of dirt.

It will always come as a shock to many who think that land is an excuse for bombing people that when they are dead the land is still there. What are they wanting to do? Continue fighting for the same piece of dirt for 3 generations, 4, 10, 50? What is the point if they poison the land and make it unfit to live on as most of Iraq, Afghanistan and Kosovo now are? How about Vietnam due to agent orange?

Will Lebanon be worth living in when Israel is finished spilling blood, oil and bombs?

The Jewish people are not in threat of extinction. They cannot be murdered by the million anymore as the US would protect them all and what I see now is over reactive paranoia.

As for all those Islamists killing "us" everywhere - over 100,000 dead in Iraq and we caused it. That makes one soldier from Australia who killed himself worth more than 100,000 Iraq civilians to many. Is that right?

"All...have sinned and fall short of the glory of God".

Bar Israel, David?

BOAZ_David, I'm pleased to hear that you're not looking "for an ideal 'Christian State' it aint gonna happen". Funnily enough, I'm not looking for a Christian State either (perfect or otherwise).

It seems to me that US Middle East foreign policy is a dangerous blend of optimism, idealism, naïveté, piety and self-interest. The ham-fisted invasion of Iraq was a good demonstration. The notions that Iraqis would welcome American conquest, that democracy and good cheer would break out seem laughable. Add blatant self-interest (Haliburton contracts etc) and wrap the whole thing in prayers and flags. Not a pretty sight.

I note that Yossi Klein Halevi is recommending more of the same, in the case of Iran. Various sources claim that Hezbollah has initiated the rocket campaign on behalf of Iran, goading Israel into a retalliatory strike. Halevi is obviously trying to goad the USA into a retaliatory strike on Iran. I find this war-mongering repellant, not least because such a move would simply stir up more animosity and hatred.

BD I'm glad that you've found meaning in your life through Jesus and note that you see the cure for the world's ills being universal conversion to Christianity. While not necessarily questioning the efficacy of such an event, I am a little concerned at its likeliness. In the meantime, I guess we'll just have to rely on people, with all their fallabilities.

Marilyn, I'd suggest "one soldier from Australia who killed himself" sounds like a presumption of suicide. Don't know if that's what you meant, but there's been no finding one way or the other.

I admit that I am naive about the subject at hand.

@Bennie

absolutely including Israel.

Choosing to support Israel (as I have done) is not to condone every military blunder they make. I don't think we needed to saturation bomb Dresden either.. but I stand by our side in the 2nd world war.

But when I quote "All have sinned" this is a technical word -"sin" is something only applicable between man and God.
Due to our alienation from God, (the vertical relationship) our horizontal relationships (man - man) are stuffed.

Alienation from God, leads to selfishness, greed, slander, immorality, adultery, self gratification and a lust for power and control.

I choose to support Israel because of historical and theological reasons. I also have a view that Islam constitutes at best a false faith, and at worst the 'False Prophet' referred to by Jesus concerning end times.
I take that view, because of the life of the founder of Islam, his being a murderer, torturer, adulterer, child molester, and war criminal (based on our Western laws of today).

So, any faith or political movement based on this man, and the false faith he invented, is to me 'The Enemy'. I expect the state of which I am a member, to take all action appropriate to remove this 'enemy' from our midst.

Why do I describe them as an 'enemy' ? Simple, they hold up Mohammed as 'The best example of mankind', and urge Muslims to follow that example. Then, I recall the events of Srebreniza and am reminded that the Serbs learnt all of that from Mohameds example in regard to the already surrendered Jews of Banu Qurayza where he beheaded 600-900 males. The Serbs did not go as far as mohammed though, they didn't enslave the women and children. Even the raping of the women was following the example of Mohamed implied by his allowing his soldiers to rape captive women. It certainly had nothing to do with Christs teaching or example.

So, such a faith, (Islam) and example is repulsive in the extreme for me.
That is why I support Israel in principle. (and selective immigration to Australia)

Here watch this, catchy tune great message. Israel must be so frightened:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WxQcWNHmAo

Inshallah

2bob

Getting back to the subject, namely this Opinion piece written by Yossi Halevi.

Which bit is seriously wrong?

Which bit is at odds with PM Howard’s statement on the subject, namely that
1. Hezbollah must disarm
2. The Arab world and Iran and Syria must accept Israel’s right to exist.
3. There must be Palestinian State.

From what is being said, and has been said, it is also clear that militant Islam needs to recognise that it has no hope of converting everyone to its cause, whereby by slicing and dicing the troubles, which they help to create, they will convert everyone to its totalitarian view.

In the meantime Sheik Al Hilali and his cohorts marches down our streets under banners, equating Nazism with Judaism. So much for the religion of peace.

Al Hilali is actually doing that? That’s sickening moral inversion. I have to reply.
(The premier journal of religion, politics and culture)
http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0508/opinion/dalin.html

"Hitler’s mufti, Hajj Amin al-Husseini, the viciously anti-Semitic grand mufti of Jerusalem and the leader of Muslim fundamentalists in Palestine, who resided in Berlin as a welcome guest of the Nazis throughout the years of the Holocaust."

"His career as an anti-Semitic agitator and terrorist began on April 4, 1920, when he and his followers went on a murderous rampage, attacking Jews on the street and looting Jewish stores."

"The alliance between Adolf Hitler and the Muslim fundamentalist world was initiated and forged by the grand mufti at the very beginning of the new Nazi regime. In late March 1933, al-Husseini contacted the German consul general in Jerusalem and requested German help in eliminating Jewish settlements in Palestine—offering, in exchange, a pan-Islamic jihad in alliance with Germany against Jews around the world."

"November 28, 1941, Husseini met for the first time with Hitler. As Timmerman has correctly argued, “al-Husseini owes his place in history” to this meeting, where he offered to raise an Arab legion to help carry out Hitler’s extermination of the Jews. “The mufti’s close ties to Hitler, and his total embrace of Hitler’s Final Solution,”

"From the outset of his stay in Berlin, al-Husseini was portrayed in Nazi propaganda as the spiritual and religious leader of Islam."

"In 1943 al-Husseini traveled several times to Bosnia, where he helped recruit a Bosnian Muslim S.S. company, the notorious “Hanjar troopers,” who slaughtered 90 percent of Bosnia’s Jews and burned “countless Serbian churches and villages.”

“Kill the Jews wherever you find them,” the Mufti told his growing Arab radio audience in 1944. “This pleases God, history, and religion.”

"[After the war] Yasser Arafat soon became a devoted protégé of the grand Mufti."

"The Mufti’s mission of waging ongoing war against the Jews was continued by Arafat during the 1960s and early 1970s. In 1969, for example, the PLO recruited two former Nazi instructors, Erich Altern, a leader of the Gestapo’s Jewish affairs section, and Willy Berner, an S.S. officer in the Matthausen extermination camp."

"Arafat always revered al-Husseini, who died in 1974, as his beloved hero and mentor. In a major address in April 1985, Arafat said he took “immense pride” in being the Mufti’s student and emphasized that the PLO “is continuing the path” he set. Close to thirty years after al-Husseini’s death, Arafat referred in an August 2002 interview to “our hero al-Husseini” as a “symbol of withstanding world pressure, having remained an Arab leader in spite of demands to have him replaced because of his Nazi ties.”

“there is currently a culture of hatred that permeates books, magazines, newspapers, sermons, video-cassettes, the internet, television, and radio in the Arab Middle East which has not been seen since the heyday of Nazi Germany."

"This unholy legacy of virulent anti-Semitism and anti-Jewish terrorism has been an enduring one: In the sixty years since the Holocaust, Hajj Amin al-Husseini has become the hero of the terrorist Palestine Liberation Organization, the founding father of the radical Palestine National Movement, and the INSPIRATION to two generations of radical Islamic leaders to carry on Hitler’s war against the Jews."

Prof. David Dalin Ave Maria University

Today’s WA Sunday Times has a spread headed War Violence on Perth’s Streets. The headline is no doubt overdone because as with the picture, it is centred around Prime Minister John Howard’s car, with one protestor breaking an Aussie flag flagpole over the bonnet of the car.

Now while John Howard did finish up calling all the Lebanese Hezbollah terrorists, one wonders whether the Lebanese residents call them terrorists, and and if they do, how is that that Hezbollah members are also part of the Lebanese parliament? We also note never a word praising the Israelies even from the dual citizen families brought back to Australia?

The article is also interesting in that while Howard did over-condemn Hezbollah hatred towards the Israelies, he deserves credit for stating the following:

“There will not be a solution to the conflict in the Middle East till two things happen. The first is that there must be unconditional acceptance throughout the entire Arab world, of Israel’s right to exist in peace and stability behind secure and internationally recognised boundaries.

The second “... that the Palestinians are also entitled to a national home as well as entitled to a national state and until these two conditions are met, there never will be a lasting peace in the Middle East.”

More following:

Part Two

But off course there will never be a lasting peace in the Middle East while the US continually runs the Middle East like the Roman Empire, instilling fear not only among ME Islamics, but also among many Western liberal Christians, that America wants to instill its own brand of democracy on the Middle East, not one that the majority of the world’s people would agree with.

As the German philosopher, Immanuel Kant, said so many years ago after being disgusted with Napoleon, from now on not one person nor even one nation can ever be trusted to rule this world. Better a Democratic Federation of Nations, agreed to by all world peoples.

As most historians know, it was from Immanuel Kant’s thesis that grew the League of Nations, then the United Nations, aided very much by Konrad Adenaeur, first Chancellor of post WW2 West Germany.

After his enlightening statement, the opportune job for Howard is to use some of the gumption he practices in our Aussie politics. to have George W Bush give our present UN a free go by releasing it from that ridiculous US veto to wipe our any UN Resolution America doesn’t like, which in a so-called democratic institution, should never have been allowed in the first place.

Come on Howard, going by your interest in sport, you must believe in fair play, do you stuff!

Jeff - interesting that you brought the nuremberg trials up -

Here's another quote from Gilbert and the response from Goering -

Gilbert: "There is one difference," I pointed out. "In a democracy the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars."

Goering: "Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

Sound familiar? Kind of worrying that the world's most powerful nation is taking these tips.

This article explicitly claims that Israel is fighting for survival. That is ridiculous. The insane assertion that Iran is planning to nuke Israel is simply wrong. So is the underlying theme that Hamas and Hizb'Allah are actually capable of wiping out the Israeli Jews in a new Holocaust. Just because they want to doesn't mean they can.

For instance, does any senior policy-maker in the Iranian Government (NOT a briefer, or a nutter five levels down - I mean one of the, say, top fifty people in the Government) - actually think in private that nuking Israel would be a good idea? That they could get away with it? That they would not be destroyed in an outburst of fury that would make the last five years seem like a tea party? If so, who?

Israel is retreating from the West Bank soon enough, and this current exchange of fire is a way, I think, to placate and disarm the settler minority who will definitely try and resist that withdrawal.

Israel is _not_ trying to invade Lebanon and control its people through proxies. It's just posturing. I think maybe 500 people are dead.

If Israel wanted to kill more than 500 people, they would have done so. If this was a real invasion, tens of thousands would be dead.

That is not to say this action is moral or good. It isn't. But it is not an invasion.

As far as "unequivocal American support for Israel" goes, who was the first American President to EVER use the words 'Palestinian State' in public?

George W Bush.

The first Secretary of State?

Condoleeza Rice.

If that's what you call 'unequivocal' support, that's fine with me.

David Jackmanson
http://www.letstakeover.blogspot.com

What is the pseudo-left?
http://www.lastsuperpower.net/disc/members/568578247191

BOB,

The Israeli's have failled to do any great harm to Hezbollah. They have failled in their objectives.

Your comment

'Please pray that the IDF, the IAF in particular, can swiftly turn every defended village in South Lebanon into a large, stinking hole in the ground. Particularly Bint Jbail, the terrorrists capital.'

just confirms that. Beating terror is about obliterating the terrorists support bases. All the dumb bloody IDF and the Israeli politicians have done is ensure that Hezbollah support increases.

About 'large stinking holes'... yep the IDF fits that image perfectly well, especially when it comes to killing kids and peacekeepers.

You last post with it's infantile and lame repitation and the above rash statement suggests you are starting to panic.

Two weeks wasn't it? Perhaps it's time to bring out those nukes. Thet'd confirm victory and surely confirm the rest of the world views Israeli's actions with abhorance.

In his book, “Hitler: the pathology of evil”, psychologist George Victor – who emphasized that he was writing as a “a Jew” – wrote about people who “embraced the position of victim, felt outraged, and took vengeance – a pattern that wrecked their lives and their lives and the lives of their families”. This, he wrote, “helped me understand the Third Reich”.

In a passage that might well apply to the psychology of many present-day Jews and to Israel, he wrote:

“Germany was seriously harmed after World War I – a victimization to which its leaders and people submitted, although Germans remained highly conscious of the victimization and outraged over it. Even more important, however, was Germany’s long history of victimization. While Americans have thought of Germany as a warlike, predatory nation, its history was the opposite. … Germans were the victims of many invasions, some of which decimated the population. That history made Germany a fertile soil for Hitler’s message of victimization, outrage, and vengeance.”

British Foreign Office Minister Kim Howells has said: "If you're chasing Hezbollah, well, chase Hezbollah. You don't go for the entire Lebanese nation, and that's the difference."

Are Israel’s actions Lebanon largely “vengeance” for past injustices, driven by a feeling of “victimization”, rather than a balanced reaction to the actions of Hezbollah?

Jeff Schubert’s book, “Dictatorial CEOs & their lieutenants: the cases of Napoleon, Hitler, Stalin, Ataturk, Mussolini and Mao”, will be released soon.
More at: http://www.jeffschubert.com/

2bob

And please tell me how escallation the violence has led to an escallation in violence and will lead to a futhur escallation in violence? It's a question you've never ansqwered. Why?

Would an honest answer show your absolute belief in the infalability of anything Israeli could be a mistake?

Keith

ps sorry about the spelling, I'm just a little slack tonight.

Whoa back ye Isralies!
You have suffered from minor incursions by extremist elements, and demonstrated your disgust by retaliating with massive force. This has been seen on countless occasions over the last several years.
Bombing your enemies out of existence is not the way to do things - this is 2006!. You dont HAVE TO bomb them - do you!, so Stop it - NOW!
It is made even worse when you maim and kill other innocent people.
Your actions against those you hate show that you have learnt nothing from the hatred and devistation bestowed upon you during WW2.
You have now lost the sympathy that I had for your race, because of your harsh treatment during WW2. It almost makes my wonder if the Germans may have been right? I never used too think so, but now - I wonder.
So, what happened to your Christian philosephy of "forgiveness" ?

I gained much from this article. Information. Understanding. Inspiration. As I have written in other places, I think the idea of a Jewish state in the ancient transitory homeland of the Jewish people is a bit barmy, but it is how it is, Israel has no more nutters than the average country, is democratic, and damn well has a right to defend itself as a nation and a people.

Like some of the critics of this article, I am also squeamish about the term "evil" in political polemic, and being unreligious don't accept that, along with "good", it has meaning of any cosmic import. But if I had to give it a definition by use of an exemplar, I couldn't nominate any more apt than the state of mind that wills, for no reason other than sheer hatred, the annihilation of an entire tribe of fellow human beings. Hitler made a career out of it. Hamas is a bit coy about it. Hezbollah flaunts it.

The reasoning that demands the annihilation of these movements is very different from theirs against Israel and the Jews, since it allows for the survival of people, their polity, and their faith. These are the foundations of modern democratic life and peace between both peoples and nations. If that's not "good", I don't know what is.

Skeptor....

your right, 'evil' is a relative term, but, having said that, I add a qualifier that not using 'evil' is something only secular people can do, indeed are obliged to do. Christians and people of various faiths will definitely use the term 'evil'. But its application can be a little politically convenient at times.

COME, BE ENLIGHTENED. (yes.. you)

There are THREE pieces of literature that ALL of us should be quite familiar with in order to understand the Middle East, the Jewish reaction and the Hezbollah/Hamas initiation.

Read, absorb and understand these things, and I believe most of us would take the same view on the conflict.
This is to take a 'macrohistorical' approach. Looking at the BIGGGG picture.

Document 1 Genesis Chapter 11 to end of book. (no apologies)

Document 2 The HAMAS charter http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html

Document 3 Battle of Tours/Poitiers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tours

In these you will observe:

a) The source of the conflict overall.
b) The Nature of the combatants.
c) The need for strong resilient defense against Islamic Hegemonistic empire building (today, and for the same reasons as 'then'.)

You should absorb these truths, and they should have a definite impact on your own preparation for the future HERE in Australia.

Supplementary reading could include the following:

Hadith Muslim book on Jihad
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/019.smt.html

Exploits of Khalid Bin Al Waleed senior general of Mohamed.
http://www.swordofallah.com/html/bookhome.htm

Josephus Antiquities "Wars of the Jews"
http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/JOSEPHUS.HTM

Unless you have at LEAST this or comparable level of reading, please refrain from comment about the current problem. :)

War is just terrorism with a tax base, and Israel, our unsinkable aircraft carrier in the middle east, is demonstrating how to rebranding terrorism (collective punishment, undefined conflict zones, high civilian casualties) as war. The ethnic cleansing of southern Lebanon (all the way to the Litani River is my bet) is starting to look positively cost effective!

I am an anti-terrorist. Yossi Klein Halevi supports Israel's state-sanctioned terrorism. I don't differentiate between state terrorism and other "freedom fighter" terrorism. The Australian government supports Israel's state terrorism whilst condemning Hezbollah's terrorism. Terrorism is wrong no matter how you package it.

Brisbane's Sunday Mail supports terrorism. Two commentaries trying to justify Israel's blatant killing of the Lebanese civilians and UN observers but no commentaries from the civilians’ points of view. The Federal Police might lock you up for supporting the rights of humans whose humanity is not recognised as important as western folk’s. There'll be no comments from the graves of civilians. An ethical newspaper is meant to provide a balanced product. Why no hardcore sensible writing to counter syndicated Bolt's sellout rubbish? Do the nation a favour and don't recycle Bolt's rubbish - bin it.

The article from Chris Tinkler was presented as a news story but it was just commentary. Opinion and unsupported evidence dressed up as fact.
Mr Egeland said: "I heard they were making statements that they were proud of losing fewer armed men than civilians. It's hard to see how they could be proud of such a situation."

Well Rancitas heard Egeland was an Israeli bullsh*tartist.

Besides the dishonest hearsay-as-validated news, and the possibility of a myriad of other explanations as to why fighters where dressed in civilian clothes (ordinary civilians defending their homeland; reservists whose uniforms where destroyed): How does this justify continuing to kill civilians? Oh sure it is a few brownie points in the fickle world of public opinion. Rubbish- bin it.

Then the SMH's Andrew Bolt's usual spearhead propaganda for John Howard's Liberals. His two-plus-two-equals-five propaganda reached new heights. Prattling on about how the UN observer posts were being used as shields. Yet when a UN outpost is hit all we have is dead UN observers - no Hezbollah fighters. A moral and ethical military would ere on the safe side. More of Bolt’s rubbish bin it.

On OLO Yossi Klein Halevi says:
"... international community allowed Palestinians to continue to act as victims... "
They are victims. The UN gave Israel their land. Take a look at the map of those that voted for Jewish resettlement. All those opposed where Middle Eastern countries. For Christ sakes, UN representatives from other continents decided for the establishment of Israel. Once Israel got a foot hold you forced more than 700,000 Palestinians from their lands - out of their homes. The Palestinians are and were victims of a cruel and oppressive regime. What a backhanded insult.

Yossi says that Israel and Palestine could be "...responsible peace partners prepared to exploit the extraordinary circumstances they enjoyed for creating a state".

Israel isn't being a responsible anything in Lebanon. It would be good if this attitude actually prevailed on all sides.

"Those circumstances included virtually unlimited international political and financial support and the willingness of a majority of Israelis - induced, in part, by a justifiable guilty conscience - to consider previously unthinkable scenarios, like ceding part of Jerusalem to Yasir Arafat".

How can you be ceding Jerusalem when Palestine has held sovereignty over it for yonks? Another backhander.

Stop being so self-absorbed and try and walk a mile - otherwise this kind of propaganda pap only adds to the difficulty of finding a solution.

They did, no they didn't, you did. Or was it them that did it. Maybe it was all of them, us, we , him, her and it.

It's endless, pointing fingers and saying that's what this war is about. And make no mistake, it's a war. It's been going on for 2000 years at least and there's no end in sight.

Yet today's papers blame the last incident for the incident they now commit which results in more revenge attacks and so it goes.

Are these not the people on whom Christianity, religion was founded?

Are all these people not of similar ancestry, just look back far enough and they are.

Yet they can hate people they have never met, based on years of blame for incidents long forgotten, just the hate and need for revenge remains.

There is only 1 solution. For the leaders to lay down their bitterness and stand together in public until they are shot or hailed.
If shot then the next in line stands with who is left standing and so on. Until the pointlessness is so blatant that it stops.

Hateful to see these stinking wars being brought to Australian streets. Next will be the bombing or smashing of synagogues..not the mosques because it takes a certain mentality to do that to a place of worship.
When I see these protest marches I see Islamic domination of Australian streets. It is wrong,wrong,wrong.
One does not see screaming Hindus,Italians,Buddhists. But one see the muslims still in the dark ages dress,trying to enforce their demands on us.
When will government get the backbone to say,"Stop".

Keith, et al,

This is the link to the article detailing the troubling collapse of the building in Kfar Kana/Qana which took place many hours after the original strike by the IAF:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3283816,00.html

This is very difficult to explain away, as both Lebanon and Hizbollah have stated that the building did not contain explosives. That being so, the explosives causing the second explosion must have been taken to the building for some purpose, whilst everybody slept. These explosives were than detonated, causing the collapse of the building and the civilian casualties. I really do hope that the cause of this second explosion can be determined, in order that blame for the civilian casualties can be apportioned.

As to the legality of the current conflict, please read the following appraisal:

http://almashriq.hiof.no/lebanon/300/320/324/324.2/hizballah/beres.html

by Dr Louis Rene Beres:

http://almashriq.hiof.no/lebanon/300/320/324/324.2/hizballah/beres.html

It deals with the legality of 'Grapes of Wrath' in 1996 (Qana1) but is equally applicable to this conflict.

As to civilian casualties in general, please explain how these charmers can be differentiated from civilians apart from the fact that they are armed:

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,,19955774-5007220,00.html

Also please examine the fact that Kfar Kana/Qana is a known, and heavily used launching site for rockets:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?apage=3&cid=1153292030858&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

However, the outcome of the investigation into the Kfar Kana/Qana incident should prove extremely enlightening. Perhaps Hizbollah shall be exposed finally for their cynical attempt to corner International opinion, by staging a massacre of their own civilians? THIS WILL BACKFIRE, perhaps all the other cause celebre, "massacres' will need re-examination?

Inshallah

2bob

Bushbred the US has no empire, http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/GJ04Aa01.html

consequently you completely, and I mean completely misread the situation in the middle east.

"Running the Middle East like the Roman Empire" what nonsense is that? The US sponsored elections in Palestine and the people foolishly elected Hamas, a terrorist group that wants Israel destroyed, in direct opposition to US interests (strange behaviour for a militaristic empire builder). The President of Iraq is publicly criticising Israel over Lebanon going directly against US policy. Can't you see the US just wants to get on with its pre occupation with itself and be left in peace. Bush was quite happy to go isolationist until they thousands were murdered and New York attacked.

The fact is the US is free and that is a problem for the Islamists who want to see a pan Islamic state instituted. The US is economically and politically powerful and that sticks in the craw of those who want that for themselves.

Stop parroting silly left wing propaganda.

Mr Shubert. I disagree with your conclusions re: Germany being sinned against after WW1. The Prussian military caste whose raison detre was military conquest started the war, invaded France and Belgium and destroyed 25% of French Industry in the process. None of the fighting took place on German soil consequently German civilians were spared while French were not. French combatants killed or maimed were horrendous.

The Allies had every right to seek compensation and it was not onerous, given the costs of the war to especially the French.

It was the German victim mentality and history of anti semitism that was exploited by Hitler for ruinous ends and it the same weaknesses that muslim religious leaders will continue to exploit for power political reasons, until the muslims grow up and join modernity. Something it took the West centuries to do.

The Muslims were very civilized when the European Christians were in the Dark Ages. The Muslims don't have far to go to get back to a reasonable level.

Problem is that fanatics have taken power and there is unfortunately in the world at present no Muslim country which is functioning nearly as well as the democratic nations such as Japan India Taiwan Singapore Australia USA Germany France etc.

Many of them would have to be considered totally disfunctional such as Iraq and Aghanistan (both before and after the US attacks) Lebanon Iran etc. Pakistan is doing poorly compared with its cousin India.

I do not know the solution but it must involve an acceptance by true Muslims that the problem is within the Muslim world itself.

Well said Martin.

I couldn't read past the fourth or fifth paragraph because of the amount garbage in it. Really, could Nazi Isreal really take their hand off it and gain some common morals? No? I didn't think so.

The destruction of Lebanon is nothing but the work of a nation craving for the taste of blood on their tongues. Israel is one nation that I stopped lending my support some years ago. You lot think that while Nazi Germany should be pushed on to us while you lot go around doing the same thing.

Hmm, poisoning crops to kill native desert people, forcing Muslims to have a lower level of living than Jews, etc. Oh, shooting teenage girls in the back.

I can't even consider shaking a hand of Jew now. All I see is disease and think...You know, Hitler just may have been right about Jews in the first place.

Hard to hear, isn't it...but you lot since your existence love to put people into financial blackmail and I won't pay any respect until you lot start behaving like real people.

This the civilised and totally blameless city of Kfar Kana, and shows Hizbollah rocket launching techniques. Please be patient, this takes some time to load:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96Qdlj-avPc

Of course, Hizbollah would not do such a thing!

To paraphrase an IAF General:

'Sometimes if you sleep with rockets, you don't wake up in the morning'

Inshallah

2bob

2bob

You are also an Israeli propagandist. You keep repeating the lie. Won't work here though. Haven't you noticed nobody is discussing anything with you anymore.

We've all switched off and prefer to make up our own minds without the rabid propaganda from the murderous and land grabbing Israelis.

Another old adage is appropriate.

'As you sow, so shall you reap.'

Israel didn't learn from their last escapade into Lebanon. Maybe they might this time. But I doubt it ... they are just too thick.

And another, which all the West will eventually apply,

'If you lie with dogs you get up with fleas.'

Dear Logic
legal disclaimer-my "opinion" follows:

your point about the Muslim world accepting that the problem is with 'itself' is indeed true, but there is a huge difficulty there.

Example. There is an Iranian lady, a Muslim, who stood up to the Mullahs, and began campaigning about womens rights etc... and suggesting (key point) that "Islam has been distorted by extremists"

Now..there is the problem and a dilemna. In reality the extremists have NOT distorted it, they are simply following it. But this is so repugnant to many women, (and ordinary families who just want a bit of religion and to get on with life) specially those who have been exposed to Western liberalism, that they then 'project back' the freedom of the West into Islam and try to re-construct it in those terms, and claiming its true ideals are distorted.

Nothing could be further from the truth !

In the
-Teaching (Quran and Hadith)
-Example (Sunnah) of Mohamed
-Unfolding history of Islamic expansion

The true nature of Islam is clear. SATANIC !

From the Hamas Charter:

Article Eleven: The Strategy of Hamas: Palestine is an Islamic Waqf
The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine has been an Islamic Waqf throughout the generations and until the Day of Resurrection, no one can renounce it or part of it, or abandon it or part of it.....

more: (from the same article)

This [norm] has prevailed since the commanders of the Muslim armies completed the conquest of Syria and Iraq,..

NOTE the key words.. 'CONQUEST'..... (Muslim words, not mine)

2 IMPORTANT POINTS HERE.

1/ "Conquest"
2/ "Islamic lands" (Waqf)(till the day of resurrection) including ALL conquered lands (including SPAIN and parts of France,Austria up to Vienna)

Waqf="inalienable religious endowment" ... (can you see a place for Israel in this?)

But, I hear the Islamic apologists chirping "But Islam did not spread by the sword"...yeah...RIGHT.. good PR and Shia Taqiya, but lousy honesty.

Australia...be warned -this mindset is HERE (13 of them on committal hearing in Melbourne NOW).

My golly gosh Boaz, are you calling for a religious war or what. I take it you can't see past your hatred.

There are muslims that are causing world strife just as there with Jews and Christians and Hindus. Tell you what, why don't we round up all the Christian's, Hindu's, Mulims and Jews and kill em all. There you go, a major step towards world peace.

Can you go in first please? [Deleted for complete insensitivity and poster warned. And you can tell how bad it was by what I left!]

Now for seriousness...grow up!

So many comments, so much knowledge. NOT

There is no justification for any war, regardless of who did what and when. To argue either side is right or justified is just pig headed.

All the ramblings and rants on this thread and not a whit of sense.

Boaz..David,
In relation to Islam you speak disparagingly of "conquest"and "spread by the sword" as if this was a modus operandi unique to the development of this particular religion.
One doesnt have to delve too deeply into the history of your own religion,Christianity,to see that that you have absolutely no ethical or moral high ground in elevating your co-religionists' historical deeds and practises above those of Moslems.
Do lets be honest..if you seek to condemn an entire religion as "Satanic" for the misdeeds and abuses of some of its adherants then where do you stand as a Christian? Without sin? What does Jesus say about that?
I think you should expend more of your energies being faithful to the teachings of your own religious creed and less time attempting to assert your own alleged moral authority over others,lest you appear to be just another religious hypocrite who doesnt practise what he preaches.
"hypocrita eice primum trabem de oculo tuo et tunc videbis eicere festucam de oculo fratris tui"

DOOM

I am in agreement with you on that one.

Let's draw the line to expose Zionist deceivers, bent-to-spin bogus history legends!

• Narcissist ..."Good heavens. I really hope that Australia becomes nothing like America in it's flag waving patriotism. Australian Patrotism is subtle, and its history is there, but unlike America, not in your face. Australia does, have great outpourings on patriotism - ANZAC day and Australia day immediately come to mind. Stories of ANZAC are worth telling and listening to ... what becoming more popular as the tourism to Gallipoli, which has never been bigger"... No wonder as one of the bloodiest in elders-of-zion instigated calamities became superimposed down-under with the sacrosanct-pride. Nationally revered ever-since by the blind-leading-blind dill-flock of the gullible-suckers ... http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4716#49306

Though-in-reality we-ought to-focus on the authentic-history (leading-to-WWI), when in spite-of-direct contacts between Zionist and Tsarist Jew connivers, the imperial-Russia had not-a-slightest influence with Turks ruling-class-Jewry, who saw Russia as their enemy. Whilst originally there was-a-glimpse of hope to-convince the recalcitrant Sultan-of-Turkey in granting an-autonomous statelet-in-Palestine to Zionists in-return for-a-bloody deal. But it soon became quite apparent that all the hopes were unrealistic as Abdul Hamid knew well-enough (as-a-Jew) that Zionist-foothold-autonomy to eventuate as an-independent-entity, whilst he was adamant to-hold onto his whole-empire.

Thus with WZO without the army, their organisation was gifted nonetheless with Chaim Weizmann's spun-intrigues in London, just as Vladimir Jabotinsky scored Tsarist accord-in-lieu of a volunteer Russian-Jew-Legion, to help Great-Britain in taking Palestine by force. As thousands of young Russian-Jew-dissidents (still-Russian-citizens) were threatened with deportation by Jew Home-Secretary Herbert Samuel, if they didn't volunteer to British-Army. Yet in-spite-of all the intimidation tactics by Brits, Russian-Jew-dissidents wouldn't fight for the Tsar nor-for-his British sly-ally.

So-much for the perceived-Jew-legion-volunteers-idea turned into-embarrassment, if not for the irony-strike in-making such-a-scheme into-reality. Courtesy of the asinine Turks (an-inside-zionist-job) to expel all the Russian-Jews from Palestine as enemy-aliens. Who joined in-turn thousands-of-young Russian-Jew-dissidents in England. Still unwilling-to-fight for the Tsar, but their Zionist ideology led-them to-follow Yosef Trumpeldor (Jabotinsky's co-thinker) into Zion-Mule-Corps with Brits-at-Gallipoli. Later Jabotinsky proudly boasted on-how-such Mule-Corps via Petersburg anti-Semites-aid led to-a-goal ..."It was that donkey-battalion from Alexandria to-open-doors to the Whitehall offices".

Well, to-keep this testimony within its practical-length, we won't be-going to-detail all-about the sordid-causes which triggered WWI (due to the elders-of-zion intrigues perpetration). Still be aware of the subsequent chapters to-follow. Encompassing Zionist-Brits plot versus utterly-deceived middle-eastern inhabitants. Who were deviously-duped as-a-result of-a-Jew Lawrence-of-Arabia ingenuity-knack, to-stab his Muslim mates in the back. Simultaneously as Britain, France, Russia, Italy and Greece connived-jointly with Australia and New-Zealand in 1915, to-pursue elders-of-zion cabal in an-unprovoked course-of-action. As a blatant-military-aggression at Gallipoli.

Never-mind so massive human-lives-loss in lieu of the rival-regime-change in the Ottoman Empire. Sought-on-behalf of the almighty-chosen elders-of-zion and their need for Palestine. Contested against the Turk-forces of the legendary general Mustafa Kemal Atatürk. As cold-blooded Brits pulled-off gory-stand-off via expendable-recruits folly. Eager-as-ever to volunteer for patriotic-duty-call, only to-be dished-out as a cannon fodder. Culminating in one of the bloodiest calamities-outcome for the duped Aussies. Sacrificed-into-oblivion in-lieu of the exploited ANZAC treaty for no-good reason at-all. Still such an ill-spirited Zionist cabal, veiled as-an ANZAC pact, has been highly-revered and idolised by descendants of the fallen diggers.

Joined by the likewise-duped halfwits, who still-failed to-realise that elders-of-zion played also an-important role-in-dragging the mighty USA into-bloody European war. A war in which the US had no-vital-interests at stake whatsoever. When by 1916, the Germans, Austrians and Ottoman Turks had seemingly won the war. Russia was in turmoil and about to-be swallowed up by the communist-Jew-revolution. France had suffered horrible losses, and Britain was under German U boats blockade. Germany made an-offer to Britain to-end the war under conditions favorable to Britain (minus-the-promised-land).

So international Zionist mafia had one-more-card to play! As Brits and Zionists with lots-of-blood on their hands struck-a-dirty deal, led by Chaim Weizmann (the man to-become-a-first President-of-Israel). The idea was for Zionists to-use their an-utterly corrupting-influence, and as-such to-drag the mighty USA into the war on the British side (so Germany and its Ottoman ally to-be crushed). Whereas in exchange for the devious luring the USA into the war, the Brits to-reward Zionists with an-autonomous statelet in Palestine (as double-crossed middle-eastern inhabitants being-stabbed in the back).

• Yossi Klein Halevi ..."Three times in the last-century, the Jewish people has found itself on the front-line against totalitarian-ideologies with aspirations-to-rule the world, and which defined the-Jewish-people as-its-primary obstacle-in-fulfilling that goal. For Nazism, the Jew was not-only the source-of-racial impurity but inventor-of-conscience, crippling humanity's survival-instincts in an-amoral (galuth) world. For Soviet communism, the Jew was the source-of-capitalism, and Zionism the front-line of imperialism. And now, for fundamentalist Islam, the Jew is the satanic-enemy, and the-Jewish-state an-abomination against God that must-be-destroyed"... uttered in the typical chutzpah style of the Zionist perjury, a "foreign correspondent for The New Republic and senior fellow of the Shalem Center in Jerusalem".

So let's-us to-draw-the-line on Zionist deceivers, bent-to-spin bogus-history legends on OLO arena. Where conscientious citizen's stance being-taken for our-Jew-lesser brethren survival, contrary to the silver-tongued Zionists usurpation of an-entire-Jewish-race. As-a-result the righteous Yossi ought-to-come out-of-his-shell and to explain his-motivation-behind the deliberate pack-of-lies, foisted on OLO forum users. It's quite remarkable how-pliable history-can-be when elders-of-zion need it to-fit-a-particular version-of-events to-suit-application. Whilst the ordinary Jews such-as-our-Jew-lesser brethren found themselves to-be exploited since time immemorial as-a-collateral human-shield to-deflect-focus from the totalitarian-ideology-consequences of the "chosen-people". Almighty chosen-as-supremacist-Jew-aristocracy to-reign on the planet-earth within the monarchical "rule by the best". Bent-to-enslave ethnic-plebs as-expandable goyim-n-shiksas (spare-a-though for the slain in their midst, our bellowed-Jew-princes Diana).

Blamed often on the six-pointed-star, originating in Egypt's hexagram Pagan rituals, which ended-up with Mayer Amschel Bauer as he changed his name to Rothschild, symbolising a rotes-schild. Ultimately giving-a-birth to Zionism, towards-the-erection of the Zionist-Vatican upon the Haram-as-Sharif, on-the-national and-totalitarian-basis, bound by the treaty with the Nazi-Reich. Due to-the-fact that supremacist-Zionists and their cultivated-Nazi-proxies had-a-common interest to-force the assimilated-Jew-lesser brethren-of-Europe to-depart-to Palestine. Exposing thus diabolical-relationship, where aloof Zionists did-not-merely fail-to-lead-towards any resistance or ever-defend our-Jew-lesser brethren-survival, they in-fact-actively sabotaged all-the-efforts made-by the rival-Jew-groups. While-plotting with the fascist-counterparts towards the Third-Reich sponsorship, not-merely-because it appeared powerful-enough to-impose-Zionist-colony in Palestine, but because-Nazi-practices were consonant with the racist-Zionist-aspirations.

For an eye opener proceed to ... http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4632#48060

Speaking-of-which, we ought-to-focus on-the-money, warranting in-turn to-probe the murder of Abraham Lincoln and JFK, assassinated while holding the high-office of US President. So remarkably striven-to-create own-US-money system, to-run the country. President Lincoln needed money-to-finance the war during 1861-1865 period, yet elders-of-zion bankers were going-to-charge him 24%-36% interest. Lincoln was horrified and greatly distressed, for he was a man-of-principle, who wouldn't-plunge his beloved country into-a-debt, impossible-to-repay (unlike Turkey). Instead he advised Congress to-pass the law authorising the printing of a full-legal-tender Treasury-Notes to-pay for-the-war-efforts.

Lincoln recognised the great benefits-of-this-issue, as-he-wrote ..."We gave the people of this republic the greatest blessing they have ever had - their own paper money to pay their own debts"... Some may-recall, these Treasury-Notes were printed-over with-a-green-ink on the back (since people-called-them-greenbacks), totalling 400 million dollars, that President Lincoln delegated to-be created as-a-debt-free and interest-free currency, to-finance the war. It served as-a-legal-tender for all, public-and-private debts. Paid-to-soldiers, to US Civil Service and which bought-supplies for war.

At the time, The London Times printed ..."If that mischievous financial policy, which had its origin in the North American Republic, should become indurated down to a fixture, then that Government will furnish its own money without cost. It will pay off debts and be without a debt. It will have all the money necessary to carry on its commerce. It will become prosperous beyond precedent in the history of civilised governments of the world. The brains and the wealth of all countries will go to North America. That government must be destroyed or it will destroy every (Jew) monarchy on the globe".

As-a-result British-Govt controlled by elders-of-zion, supported Confederate South in-a-hope to-defeat Lincoln and the Union. To-destroy-US-govt (set-for-destruction) as Rothchild's bankers financed South through their agent Judah Benjamin, Confederacy Secretary-of-State and Secretary-of-Treasury. However shrewd Jew Lincoln invoked slavery abolition, knowing that British people would-not-stand for their country in support-of-slavery. Just-as-Russian Tsar Alexander-II dispatched Baltic fleet to Alexandria and Asiatic fleet to San-Francisco with orders for admiral-to-operate under the command of Abraham Lincoln. As-a-payback elders-of-zion staged Russian revolution, while slaughtering Romanovs Jew dynasty.

For an eye opener proceed to ... http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4632#48915