More Zionist propaganda claptrap designed to shoot the messenger and deflect blame from an apartheid state committing yet more unspeakable crimes in Lebanon while continuing to pound the life out of Gaza and squeeze the Palestinians of the West Bank into smaller and smaller reservations.

A wonderful Patrick Cook cartoon at the time of Israel's 82 rampage in Lebanon had a lttle boy asking Papa Begin, as he sat on a chair, cleaning his gun, "What's Zionism?" To which Begin replies, "That's when our neigbours start getting smaller." I would only add, "And smaller."

Whow so we should read your bias instead of HRW's, Well it all makes sense now.

Thank you Sarah for that article. The political bias against Israel is amazing but I find that the bias against Israel amongst ordinary Australians is even worse. The bias, in my opinon, stems from ignorance of what really is going on in the Middle East and is fed by tabloid reporting of events.

Also, I would add, anyone hiding behind a false name when posting comments to these forums invalidate anything that they have to say.

Regards,

Phil Bramley

Perhaps if the United States government provided Hezbollah with the sophisticated weaponry it provides to Israel, Hezbollah would not resort to random bombing, but exercise the same surgical precision that the Israeli defence forces use in their attacks on Hezbollah.

Thank you Sarah for your perceptive comments on the bias of Human Rights Watch (HRW) in relation to its stance on Israel's fight against Islamic terrorism - a fight for which the civilised world should be thankful. One should appreciate, however, that HRW is essentially driven by a Marxist ideology, not by facts or rationality. In these circumstances its views should be treated with the contempt they deserve. Elena

Yes the civilised world indeed Elena, especially bombing that ambulance, what a civilised act that was.

As stated previously, Israel has complied with its obligations under International Law, especially ‘Geneva Convention 1949’, Additional Protocol 1 (1977) http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/disp.pl/au/other/dfat/treaties/1991/29.html?query=^%20geneva%20convention:

The necessary proportionality in warfare is defined as being not excessive to the military advantage to be gained by attacking legitimate targets [Art.51(5)(b)], for a legitimate purpose. In this instance, Israel's stated objective is to disarm, and weaken Hizbollah, and to put into effect UNSC Resolutions 425 & 1559 (an eminently legitimate objective).

Israel however has made use of all reasonable avenues by which to advise civilians within potential target areas of their areas status [Art.57(2)(a)(i)] and by doing so have reasonably attempted to comply with the protocol [Art.57(2)(a)(i)-(iii)]. The choice of targets, including civilian infrastructure, roads, electricity plants and even strategically placed villages and houses, which offer legitimate ‘military advantage’ to their opponent’s, are thus legitimate targets [Art.52(2)].

However, neither Hizbollah nor HAMAS have made any reasonable attempt to ensure that they target purely military targets [Art.51(4)(a)] and/or use weapons which are incapable of distinguishing between Military & Civilian Targets [Art.51(4)(a)-(c)]. Combatant’s utilise the false civilian status, in order to safeguard their assets from direct attack (perfidy) [Art.37(1)(c)], the effect of which is to ensure strikes are made within otherwise civilian areas [Art.51(5)(b)], which action by the Hizbollah & HAMAS is prohibited [Art.51(7)].

More to the point, Lebanon had to enforce border security with its own army, and disarm the militias (their obligations under UNSC RES425) they have not, but placed them in control of the border. Their is no menion of this by HRW, only specious claims of 'disproportionality'.

Inshallah

2bob

It is refreshing to read some commonsense statements about the coverage of this conflict. Perhaps the ABC should take note. Over the last few days there have been on various ABC programs a concentration on the tragedies in Lebanon with little or no mention of what is happening to the people in Israel.

Thanks for telling it how it is Sarah. As for the rest of you, you disgust me with you uncritical support for vile Islamo-fascists who happily murder civilians, execute gays, mecilessly oppress their women and violently trample all over their citizen's human rights.

The thesis seems to be this.

The Islamofacists hide among the civilians so we will kill all the civilians. Is that right Sarah? I have said repeatedly I will not take sides but this type of drivel makes it really, really hard.

In Israel the population is not without water, without electricity, and not being terrorised and made homeless from one end of the country to the other. Israel is being supplied billions in new bombs to rain down on civilians, ambulances, UN stations and so on.

800,000 homeless Lebanese Sarah. Israel is controlling who can get in and out of Lebanon just as they always have in the Gaza strip.

Perhaps you don't understand a basic fact - HRW can only report on what is there.

Have you read the reports about the criminal thugs we in the west are supporting in Afghanistan? No? Well that report is being ignored by the west because it is too inconvenient for us. We don't care that the murderers, rapists, looters and criminals of old are now the parliament of Afghanistan because we are too busy propping up the facist new government in Iraq after displacing over 1 million Iraqis and blowing their country to bits.

Those reports from HRW are ignored by us as well because they are too inconvenient. If Israel stopped taking other people's lands and water and goods and services and stopped locking them in a Warsaw style ghetto as collective punishment for the sickening behaviour of the west then Israel might find herself with a few more bloody friends right now.

Jeremy, I doubt you'd understand the depth of disgust non believers feel for rabid zionist apologists, supporting the continuing godly expression in the ME.

It was the self-centred arrogance of violent zionists who murdered their way into their current position (1947-48). It was destined to be a failed state from the start and wont survive. If we're lucky all monotheists will rush to the ME in support of their god and fight each other to death, to prove who is the most violent believer and claim the glory for the devastation, (act of god).

Supporters on all sides of this barbarity, show no common-sense at all. Constantly blaming each other, shows a complete lack of intelligence. But if you believe in a violent vengeful god intent on destroying everything in its path, what else can you expect but more violence.

I understand why Australian people don't like Jews, nor muslims or Christian zealots, your all ignorant and have no thought for anyone else. Just go into a jewish shop in Balaclava (Melb)to see the reception you get if your not jewish, no service, just ignored and starred at on the street. The same goes for muslims and christians of the more rabid set.

Israel is doomed, as is the whole ME, nothing will stop it and only fools will support it. Why are they there, control of oil The Israelites have a cease fire when the black widow spider Rice, enters Lebanon, but no cease fire to get out tourists, as the USA imports WMD's for use against civilians.

I've seen video/photo's of the damage in Israel, whilst gods zionist missiles rain down in ever increasing indiscriminate violence on all and sundry.

But your right, your belief gives you the right to invade someone back yard, attack and throw them out, then continue to take more and more with violent destructive force.

One fail safe solution, is remove Israel to the USA as that's their entire support base. Another chosen country of god and just as despotically violent.

It is a sad indictment of the Australian Media when a more balance and less hysterical anti-Israeli view of the conflict can be obtain from Aljazeera. It says alot about the lack of independence and/or journalistic freedom displayed by the media.

The recent "reminder" of a 50 year old+ D-Notice by the government to the media related to Nuclear tests in Australia being a case-in-point.

One must laugh at the "ambulance" stunt pulled by Hezbollah (yet again). The terrorist are well documented for acquiring and using ambulances for material and personnel transport. The damage to the ambulance (and the survivors of the blast who lived to talk about it!) are indicative of the blast not being caused by Israeli ordinance. The incident seem to disappear very quickly from the media spotlight when it was questioned...

Of course Israel’s defence is absolutely NOT “morally equivalent” to the unprovoked Hezbollah terrorist attack on their soil, and Hezbollah’s cowardly use of civilian shields. But what else can be expected from one of these meddling NGO’s?

The tired old chant about ‘disproportionate’ force totally ignores the realities of armed conflict and self-defence. Armed conflict is dreadful; innocents will be killed. But anyone who does not believe that one’s own country and people are more important than the enemy’s is living in la la land. If Israel has to reduce Lebanon to rubble to defend itself, so be it.

Israel’s enemies have pledged to do just that to Israel.

Don’t worry, Kenny. Nobody’s trying to change your mind. Keep up with the brainless one-liners.

Even if they agree with your comments, Phil Bramley? When you’ve been around this site for a while, you will see why it is unwise to give your full name, although I must say that you are being rather hypocritical – nobody could possibly trace ‘Phil Bramely’, which might or might not be your real name.

Carl: I don’t think Israeli weaponry is good enough to pinpoint an ambulance. They zapped a drilling rig on a truck thinking it was a missile launcher. Think first, Carl.

Thank you for fronting up, Sarah Mandel. The contributions have been rather one-sided on this issue.

Huh. An article on media bias relating to the arab-israeli conflict, put out by someone affiliated with:

"NGO Monitor is a project with the stated aim of monitoring non-governmental organizations operating in Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza. It is a program of the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, and was formerly a joint project with B'nai Brith International.[1].

NGO Monitor describes its goal as "end[ing] the practice used by certain self-declared 'humanitarian NGOs' of exploiting the label 'universal human rights values' to promote politically and ideologically motivated anti-Israel agendas."

- Amnesty International Australia.

..... That's kind of funny. I guess it must be because this is a joke. But then again, NGO Monitor has criticised Amnesty as well. I guess those left wing crazies should know better than to critise the side with the ear of the Americans right? NGO Monitor (what a delightfully neutral sounding name) is there to push the jew wheelbarrow.

I was following the article quite seriously until the last paragraph which read "Until it relinquishes its extremist political program with respect to Israel, and recognises the difference between terrorists and sovereign democratic states" when I discarded it.

Palestinians want a separate state... if they get one, will they then be allowed to attack? After all, Israel was founded after a certain hotel bombing by zionists, which killed plenty of civilians - they got a country out of it, and thus, are now to be elevated on a pedestal.

You're critising the left wing media outlets stranded in a storm from the right. You forget good old rupert murdoch and bush are much keener on Israel than the arabs. There's your bias.

Both sides here are guilty of killing civilians. I can't blame either side for trying to subvert the media to their way of thinking, only despise them for it.

2bob

You're selectively quoting Articles of the Geneva Convention in an attempt to legitimise Israel's action.

Take other Articles that you are ignoring in your quest to justify Israel's illegal invasion of Lebanon.

These ones:

Article 10
Article 12

Article 48
Article 50 Section 3
Article 51 Sections 2, 4(a) (b) (c), 5 (a) (b) and 8
Article 52 Sections 1, 2, and 3

Article 53(a)
Article 57 Sections 1, 2 (a)(i) (ii) (iii)
and Particularily Section 5, which cartagorically states

'No provision of this Article may be construed as authorizing any attacks against the civilian population, civilians or civilian objects'

And finally parts of Article 85

'Repression of breaches of this Protocol
(a) making the civilian population or individual civilians the object of attack;
(b) launching an indiscriminate attack affecting the civilian population or civilian objects in the knowledge that such attack will cause excessive loss of life, injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects, as defined in Article 57, paragraph 2(a)(iii);
(d) making non-defended localities and demilitarized zones the object of attack;
4. In addition to the grave breaches defined in the preceding paragraphs and in the Conventions, the following shall be regarded as grave breaches of this Protocol, when committed wilfully and in violation of the Conventions or the Protocol:
(a) the transfer by the Occupying Power of parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies, or the deportation or transfer of all or parts of the population of the occupied territory within or outside this territory, in violation of Article 49 of the Fourth Convention ;
(e) depriving a person protected by the Conventions or referred to in paragraph 2 of this Article of the rights of fair and regular trial.'

Now consider whether Article 85, section 5 should be applied.

'Without prejudice to the application of the Conventions and of this Protocol, grave breaches of these instruments shall be regarded as war crimes.'

Hezbollah isn't a signatory and that does not excuse their warmongering or contravention of basic Articles however neither does it justify Israeli breaches of that Convention.

Israel gets criticized more simply because it touts itself as having superior motives to those of Lebanon. From any perspective the warring parties are as inhumane as each other.

Missiles fired into Israel from Lebanon are not warranted, but the author failed to explain why Israel is bombing television stations and U.N. employees among its 'precision bombing'.

If Israel's rhetoric matched its actions the author might find the audience a little more understanding.

Thanks Leigh for pointing that out...however I can assure you that I am he and he is me! If my post needs authentication then I am happy to provide details.

Again I would reiterate that not all is as it seems in respect of the present conflict in Lebanon and simply basing one's opinion on a 5 minute (that long?) TV sound bite (see the article on the 7.30 report between Downer and O'Brien) is inviting a difference of opinion on forums such as this. You would have to have lived and worked in that region to get a feel of what is going on and even then it's hard to judge.

Marilyn Shephard

You simplify the arguement as follows - "The Islamofacists hide among the civilians so we will kill all the civilians." No one is talking about killing all the civilians. If the Islamofacists hide amongst the civilians how can Israel stop them without hurting some of the surounding innocent population?

What do you expect Israel to do? Hezbollah has sohisticated Cruise missiles supplied by the powerful oil rich Islamicist lobby. If they do not remove these missiles somehow they will be fired at them. Do you expect the Israelis to standby and do nothing?

In today´s Age the UNITED Nations aid chief Jan Egeland was reported as launched a scathing attack on Hezbollah, branding the Shiite militants cowards for boasting that Lebanese civilians were enduring the Israeli bombardments.

"Some believe I spoke only about excessive use of force by Israel there (in Beirut)," he said in Cyprus after arriving from Lebanon en route to Israel.

And Marilyn what do you think these Hezbollah fanatics would do after destroying Israel? Their goal is world Islamic conquest according to their own perverse interpretations.

Do you want to wear a Burkah? Or risk execution if your husband´s family accuses you of adultery? This is not exageration it happened in Afhanistan.

The scoreboard tells the story.

Israeli civilians killed: 18
Lebanese civilians killed: 360

I was thinking the same thing Lev.

For those who are concerned with biased reporting, perhaps to make it “fair” they should allocate the a certain amount of media time for each civilian killed. That way the Israel:Lebanon ratio would be about 20 : 400 or, for every one minute covering Israeli deaths there should be 20 minutes covering Lebanese deaths.

Or perhaps it could be allocated according to the number of people displaced – Lebanon 800,000 : Israel ??

Or perhaps by the number of missile strikes in Lebanon/Gaza as opposed to those in Israel.

Or the number of TV stations demolished.

Or the number of Airports demolished.

Or the number of power stations demolished.

The number of ambulances demolished.

The number of UN observers murdered.

What do you think guys? Good idea?

I tried to go into the Human Rights Watch website http://www.hrw.org , but it seems to have fallen over. Has anyone had any luck checking out the offending content? Google threw a few article titles at me eg "Lebanon: Hezbollah Rocket Attacks on Haifa Designed to Kill Civilians", but not enough to really judge.

I decided to have a look at Amnesty International as well. And guess what? The lead story on the front page is entitled Israel-Lebanon: Stop killings of civilians http://web.amnesty.org/pages/lbn-210706-action-eng . "Amnesty International has called on the UN Security Council to adopt urgent measures to address such blatant violations of international law, which include war crimes, and to protect the civilians – as it is they, mostly Lebanese but also Israeli civilians, who are paying the heaviest price."

This article seems a little disingenuous to me. People are getting killed and this article puts the blame on Human Rights Watch "HRW will continue to fuel the conflict that it condemns with such vigour". I'd suggest anyone inclined to take this guff seriously should have a look at http://www.ngo-monitor.org, where Sarah Mandel hails from.

Geez, Louise, the grotesquely named 'logic' is at it again. Let's deconstruct:

"Islamofascists": Anyone who happens to be Muslim & has an issue with Israel. Alternatively, anyone who just happens to be a Muslim.

"Islamofascists hide among civilians": Just like every Israeli civilian is in and out of the army on a regular basis & the army acts as finishing school for Israeli polliewaffles.

Hezbollah's missiles? Israel is armed to the teeth with 250, 450, 900, 2000+ kg aerial bombs and 200-400 nukes. Does 'logic' expect Hezbollah to stand by and do nothing?

"Lebanese civilians enduring Israeli bombardments"? Do they have any choice?

"Hezbollah fanatics...destroying Israel": Note the psychological phenomenon of projection at work here. Whenever the Israeli Offence Forces are destroying other people and laying waste their homes and property, Zionist 'logic' has it that the victims of aggression are destroying the perpetrators of aggression.

Notice too this classic piece of Zionist 'logic': Israeli ubermenschen are committing war crime after war crime to save us all from the dreaded burkah.

Strewth

Your arguments are classic ones. Firstly use the term Zionist to denigrate anything you disagree with. May I not use the term Islamofascist? In any case it was not my term. Marilyn Shephard used it and I was replying to her letter.

The Israelis do have a citizen army. So do the Swiss. Neither nation hides cruise missiles and missile launchers amongst civilian populations.

This is what was crticised by the UNITED Nations aid chief Jan Egeland. I quote more of his statement.

"However, consistently from Hezbollah heartlands my message was: 'Hezbollah, stop this cowardly blending in among women and children'.

"I heard there was a statement they were proud they had lost very few fighters, and that it was the civilians bearing the brunt of this. I don't think you want to be proud of having many more children and women than armed men (killed)."

Yes there are Jewish fanatics who set up the infamous settlements. and some horrid behaviour from some sections of Israel. But Egypt denied almost a half of a million Jews from having passports even though they had lived in Egypt for up to a thousand years before the Arabs arrived. And the Jews in Iraq were persecuted many with trumped up death sentences. That is why at least half the Jews in Israel are not from Europe at all but from other parts of the the middle east where their houses were stolen by the Arab population. Do you think they are wanting to destroy Egypt or Iraq? They are making a new life.

And as for body count perhaps the Israelis are just more careful with their citizens. This was indicated by the comments of the UNITED Nations aid chief.

The Israeli's have suffered war before and are better prepared by building safe places for their citizens. They do not place weapons among civillian houses. This however is a deliberate strategy by Hizbollah to gain international sympathy as civillians are killed by Israels attempt to disable weapons launching sites.

The Royal Australian Navy maintains a naval base directly next to Sydney/Australia's most densely populated suburb - Potts Point. A submarine base on the opposite side of the harbour in Neutral Bay(?). While it's not a deliberate use of 'human shields', it's equally irresponsible since the outcome of a military strike on these potential targets would have a similar outcome. Let's call up the UN about it..

While we're here, today's readings come from the Book of Deuteronomy:

4:39-40
Acknowledge and take to heart this day that the LORD is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other. Keep his decrees and commands, which I am giving you today, so that it may go well with you and your children after you and that you may live long in the land the LORD your God gives you for all time.

7:1-6
When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations - the Hittites, Girgasites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you - and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy. Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, for they will turn your sons away from following me to serve other gods, and the LORD's anger will burn against you and will quickly destroy you. This is what you are to do to them: Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones, cut down their Asherah poles and burn their idols in the fire. For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.

For those who say that all this started when two Israeli soldiers were captured - Are you sure?

Correction - the first paragraph in my above post should read:

The Royal Australian Navy maintains a naval base directly next to Sydney/Australia's most densely populated suburb - Potts Point, and a submarine base on the opposite side of the harbour in Neutral Bay. While it's not a deliberate use of 'human shields', it's equally irresponsible since the outcome of a military strike on these potential targets would be similar. Let's call up the UN about it..

Keith,

Thanks for the reasoned response, now, let’s see;

Israel has provided medical treatment to numerous casualties from the other side (as far as I am aware Hizbollah has not) [Art.10]. Warnings were provided long ago to both Hizbollah & HAMAS regarding medical units [Art(s).12(4); 13(1); 37(1)(d); & 38(1)] and the transport of munitions, reinforcements and explosives [Art.12(4); 37(1)(d); & 38(1)].

Targeting, which I construe as your argument invoking Part IV, relates to civilian areas, which are defined as being areas containing mainly civilians [Art.]. Art.51(2) relevantly provides:

‘Acts or threats of violence the primary purpose of which is to spread terror among the civilian population are prohibited.’

The primary purpose of the strikes is to destroy identified buildings, from which rockets have been launched, despite the occupants feigning civilian, ‘non-combatant’ status [contra Art.31(1)(c)], in addition to striking command and control sites, infrastructure et al, all of which are legitimate targets [Art.52(2)], which being targeted and using ‘smart’ weapons are neither indiscriminate nor unlimited [Art.51(4)(a)-(c)]. These can be attacked with impunity if, and only if, the foreseeable damage to civilians is not disproportionate to the anticipated military advantage, or legitimate objective, to be gained by the strike [Art.51(5)(b)], as the mere presence of civilian shields does not preclude attack [Art.51(7)].

Places of worship are protected [Art.53(a)] but such protection is lost if they are used to support a combatant [Art.53(b)]. It is clear that the IDF has endeavoured to comply with its obligations to warn and minimize civilian casualties [Art.57(1), (2)(a)(i)-(ii), (2)(c)]. But Hizbollah has made no attempt to comply with its obligations to build defensive & offensive sites in non-civilian locations [Art.58(a)-(c)], which failure/refusal does not preclude them being attacked [Art.51(7)] provided the foreseeable harm is not disproportionate to the anticipated military advantage to be gained from the strike [Art.51(5)(b); contra 57(5)] on a legitimate target [Art.52(2)]. The provision quoted [Art.57(5)] does not preclude attacks [statutes are to be read as a whole] simply providing the minimum precautions to be observed [Art.57-58] by both sides in complying with the protection of civilians [Ch.II, Art(s).50-51].

Nicely done anyway

Inshallah

2bob

Here we go around the mulberry bush again. Wear a burka because they do in Afghanistan - yet when Afghan women escaped to Australia we locked them up, turned them back into the sea, sent them to Nauru or sent them back to Afghanistan, some are still on Lombok after nearly 5 years.

There is no point telling me what all the so-called islamofacists might do or fantasize about doing - they are not doing it and cannot do it for a very simple reason.

The US would nuke them all if they tried. Or Israel would. Give me a break here please. Name one Islamic country that has actively invaded, blown to bits and slaughtered tens of thousands of western cities and civilians in the last few years.

We invaded Afghanistan and Iraq and now Israel has invaded the Palestinian occupied territories again and Lebanon again.

The makes us 4, them 0.

Article 51 Section 5 b re excessive. You were being deceptive quoting this subsection to legitimise Israeli war crimes.

Article 51 deals with protection of the civilian population and sub section b deals specifically with indescriminate attacks on civilians.

You've plucked part of the convention, used it out of context and used it to try to justify Israel's illegal invasion and it's use of excessive force.

You should read and apply all sections of article 57. Your claims would clearly be seen as deceptions.

Similarily with Article 57 . By ignoring all the other prohibitions in this Article you are again deceptive. That you even attempt to justify these attacks on civillians shows your contempt for Section 5

Article 57 deals with precautions in attack and section 2 subsection ii deals with the means of attack.

While Israel used some 'smart' bombs much of its attack has been by way of artillery and tank barrage. The latter type is indescriminate.
Now pay particular attention to Section 5.

'No provision of this Article may be construed as authorizing any attacks against the civilian population, civilians or civilian objects.'

Which is exactly what you've done.

And 2bob pay particular attention to Article 51 Section 8.

'Any violation of these prohibitions shall not release the Parties to the conflict from their legal obligations with respect to the civilian population and civilians, including the obligation to take the precautionary measures provided for in Article 57'

Which is what you also do when you point to Hezbollah breeching the Articles. Israel cannot abandon it's responsibilities just because Hezbollah has.
You see, once Israel abandoned those articles, which you show it has with your argument, Israel become exactly the same as hezbollah ... war criminals. Only difference is the degree... and that so far is heavily weighted and now includes UN Peacekeepers.

Oh and you ignored Article 85 totally...Doesn't it exist?

Yes my arguments are very much stronger than yours...I'm not attempting to justify criminality.

We well recognise Marilyn Shepherd's sympathies to the enemies of democracy. Evidenced by her abbhorance in continual bias of posts degrading America, Britian, Australia and Israel - These in her mind are the enemy of her political position. It is clear why she wants to flood all these democratic nations with Muslim boat people [transmigrants]; she is a activist agent of extremist totalitarian Muslims; so in her mind to capture the world for ALLAH places her in high esteem with Mullahs. She has no concept of protecting Western freedom and democracy from despots.

Keith,

Art.85(3) relevantly provides:

‘In addition to the grave breaches defined in Article 11, the following acts shall be regarded as grave breaches of this Protocol, when committed wilfully, in violation of the relevant provisions of this Protocol, and causing death or serious injury to body or health:’

The term ‘wilfully’ [Art.85(3)] provides that a person/state is only criminally liable for an act or omission which they intended, and imports the criminal onus and standard of proof [Art.75(4)(a)-(j)]. I suggest that a much more compelling argument would be required to even invoke it [Art.85(5)]. Israel would be in compliance with; and cognizant of; its legal obligations [Art.82].

The sentence quoted [Art.51(2)]; insofar as it proscribes criminal liability for any attack complying with it; is validly quoted, albeit in a slightly abrogated format (word restrictions). True it is that the Article does not authorise attacks on civilians [Art.57(5)], but neither does it preclude attacks [Art.51(7)] against legitimate targets, which offer a concrete military advantage [Art.52(2)] and which are neither indiscriminate /disproportionate to the anticipated benefit [Art.51(5)(b)].

Important note, the Geneva Conventions regulate warfare, they were never intended to prevent it per se. Israel is not attacking civilians directly, they are simply in the immediate vicinity of legitimate targets, which have been located in civilian areas [contra Art.51(7)], which does not diminish the legitimacy of their target status [Art.52(2)]. In fact, Israel is under pressure from its army to provide that any civilian choosing to stay after being warned [Art.57(2)(c)] loses their civilian status [Art.51(3)] by providing protection to Hizbollah [37(1)(c)].

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/743027.html

Alternatively, their failure/refusal to leave after being warned, amounts to a ‘voluntary’ assumption of risk, rendering Hizbollah liable for any injury or death accruing from the placement/positioning of material, arms and combatants [Art.52(2)], and for their failure to remove the civilians [Art.58(a)-(c)]. Israel can validly deem an area evacuated of non-combatant’s once sufficient warning is provided [Art(s).51(3), 51(7), 52(2) & 57(2)(c)].

Keith, you are fundamentally misconstruing the situation, it is not for me to justify criminality [Art.75(4)(d)], it is for others to attempt to prove it [75(4)(a)-(j)].

Inshallah

2bob

Philo, I must agree with your thoughts on Marilyn, “She has no concept of protecting Western freedom and democracy from despots.”

Marilyn like you, sees only one side of the equation neglecting the others. The biggest despots we face, are those backed by god, christian USA, zionist Israel and muslim arabs. These 3 are equal in their desire to destroy democracy, replacing it with theological dictatorship of the world.

2 bob says he doesn't believe the jewish invasion and destruction is a criminal act and even though the wording does support it as being criminal, typical of monotheists, he can only see his own self righteous blindness in deference to reality and innocent suffering.

Its very understandable why this is happening, you have 3 factions of an infantile moronic despotic psychopathic belief, filled with superstitious and fear, determined to be right at any cost. The only outcome as we have seen throughout history, is destruction

OLO is pumping out as much supporting articles of israel as it can, which only goes to show how lacking in veracity this zionist devilry is. Six hours of bombing a UN post, is no accident nor is destroying Lebanon. It just shows how ridiculous the believers in god are and to what lengths they are prepared to go, to be right.

Lets hope this is the final death throes of monotheisms power on the planet, although I expect it will escalate beyond most peoples understanding first. Finally resorting to WMD including nuclear to be right and wiping each other out.
Inshallah

"According to the Lebanese police force, the two Israeli soldiers were captured in Lebanese territory, in the area of Aitaa al-Chaab, near to the border with Israel, where an Israeli unit had penetrated in middle of morning," said the AFP. And the French news site www.VoltaireNet.org reiterated the same account on June 18, "In a deliberated way, [Israel] sent a commando in the Lebanese back-country to Aitaa al-Chaab. It was attacked by Hezbollah, taking two prisoners."

The Associated Press departed from the official version as well. "The militant group Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers during clashes Wednesday across the border in southern Lebanon, prompting a swift reaction from Israel, which sent ground forces into its neighbor to look for them," reported Joseph Panossian for AP on July 12. "The forces were trying to keep the soldiers' captors from moving them deeper into Lebanon, Israeli government officials said on condition of anonymity."

And the Hindustan Times on July 12 conveyed a similar account:

"The Lebanese Shi'ite Hezbollah movement announced on Wednesday that its guerrillas have captured two Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon. 'Implementing our promise to free Arab prisoners in Israeli jails, our strugglers have captured two Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon,' a statement by Hezbollah said. 'The two soldiers have already been moved to a safe place,' it added. The Lebanese police said that the two soldiers were captured as they 'infiltrated' into the town of Aitaa al-Chaab inside the Lebanese border."

Whether factual or not, these alternative accounts should at the very least raise serious questions as to Israel's motives and rationale for bombarding Lebanon.

Counterpunch July 26

Inshallah 2bob

Again you selectively quote. You quote only those parts of Article 85 that suit Israel and portray her as an angel.

Since you claim
‘Israel has complied with its obligations under International Law, especially ‘Geneva Convention 1949’,

try justifying Israel’s actions in the West Bank and Gaza.
Try these apples, sections of Article 85 that you ignore.

4(a) ‘the transfer by the Occupying Power of parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies, or the deportation or transfer of all or parts of the population of the occupied territory within or outside this territory, in violation of Article 49 of the Fourth ‘

and

4(e) depriving a person protected by the Conventions or referred to in paragraph 2 of this Article of the rights of fair and regular trial.

But back to Lebanon, mate you are delving into the detail and forgetting the big picture. Artillery and tank barrages on townships and cities indiscriminately kill civilians and destroy civilian property and infrastructure. Watch the tv pictures of the barrages originating from inside Israel. Nothing can justify that.

Oh 2bob

‘Read some of the articles on this site, and please tell me, and the rest of the forum, why Hizbollah should be saved by a ceasefire?’

Why after 15 days of relentless attack, destruction and invasion Israel has succeeded in advancing only one kilometre into Lebanon, why Israeli reservists have today mobilised, why the Israeli Cabinet is meeting to increase the force being used, why the US are suggesting the Shaba Farms be returned to Lebanon and, most importantly, how today the mauled and beaten Hezbollah managed to fire 150 rockets into Northern Israel. NOTE that is more than have ever been fired before.

Explain how escalating the violence has led to an escalation of violence and will lead to a further escalation of violence?

The only possible losers apart from Israeli and Lebanese civilians are the Israeli Defence Force. They will be seen to not be able to beat a bunch of terrorists.

Why do you continue to try to justify their criminal folly?

"she is a activist agent of extremist totalitarian Muslims; so in her mind to capture the world for ALLAH places her in high esteem with Mullahs. She has no concept of protecting Western freedom and democracy from despots."

- Philo

Western freedom and democracy are under far more threat from governments keen to capitalise on the climate of fear to extend their power.
The right to a fair trial was once seen as an unassailable right. Now we don't grant it to those that the powers that be define as terrorists, even though we've yet to pin down precisely what constitutes a terrorist, leaving the way open for extensive abuse.

In America, we've seen the 'Patriot Act'. If there's ever been a prime example of what constitutes the Bush administration, this is it - nasty deeds dressed in the veils of patriotism and conservative rhetoric.

Here in Australia we have much of the same with new sedition laws and worse.

Philo, the Middle East conflict is not black and white, and you can't just paint the enemy as 'evil'. Both sides here are guilty. Throughout history wars have been fought on the battlefield, but those wars can only be won once the powers that be have convinced the masses that the enemy they fight is less than human.

There have been horrific deeds committed by hezbollah, I won't doubt it. But the Israelis aren't the innocent heroes either, and the Americans certainly aren't the crusaders you would like to believe.

Those you are so quick to condemn were all once children too. I urge you to meet those children, and say to their face that it's okay to bomb them, they're just terrorists.
While you're at it, why don't you take a tally of the number of westerners that have died in oil wars compared to the number of arabs and show it to them. It's much harder to look them in the face than to press a button and have a bomb land on them.

War was better when you had to see the price of your actions.

Actually Alchemist I do only see one side of things, you are quite right. I see the side of the people being slaughtered without cause.

So that makes me inferior does it? When we in the west claim some high moral ground called protecting our freedoms by inflicting maximum misery on others we have no high moral ground.

In this case the west has blown up 4 muslim nations in the past 5 years. Why on earth would they be grateful?

And Alchemist, I am just as disgusted with Hezbollah as with the IDF - no-one can claim to be a human being or respecter of human rights and be so barbaric as to kill any other human being.

They are all savages - it's just that if you want shades and degrees we in the so-called civilised west win the barbarism stakes hands down.

Reading Timothy Garton Ash this morning was a treat - he says we must take the blame and he is quite right. Israel only exists in the centre of the arab world because the moral west didn't want the Jews.

"Israel only exists in the centre of the arab world because the moral west didn't want the Jews."

Marilyn, I agree with most of your sentiment, but not that.
The jewish people specifically wanted their holy land.
Whether or not they would have accepted somewhere else is debatable, but the fact that they had their eyes on Israel as the prize is not - they've been pretty open about the for thousands of years.

Israel probably was about the worst place they could have been put, though there were going to be problems anywhere.
Say you put them on madagascar. There wouldn't necessarily be war with the madagascans, but there'd be problems. Displaced people.

If you want to see what happens when a people are displaced, look no further than the problems with aboriginal Australia, or the ongoing issues associated with land title and the New Zealand Maoris, or the disaffected native Americans.

You can argue that they should have been accepted as a part of western culture, but I would argue that they have.

The jewish people have suffered more than any culture and they deserved to have a home nation, though I'm not sure whether they deserved to have their prophecies realised with the establishment of the jewish state. Though where their nation should have been placed, I don't pretend to know.

'logic': Have you got a problem with being called a Zionist? I have a problem with Islamofascist in relation to Hamas/Hizbollah simply because the latter have a primarily nationalist focus, unlike al-Qaeda, and Zionists such as yourself pull all stops out to lump the former with the latter for purely propaganda purposes.

Re armies, the Swiss don't fetishise theirs or use it as a bludgeon against their neigbours. Re Egeland, Israel has said the same thing about the Palestinians, usually in the context of a war crime it's just committed against them. Your poker-faced mate Regev was on the 7.30 report last night using the exact same specious nonsense to wriggle out of responsibility for his ubermenschen taking out the UN personnel. The excellent Jonathan Cook put it well: "The implication of Egeland's cowardly statement seems to be that any Lebanese or Palestinian fighter resisting Israel...should stand in an open field, his rifle raised to the sky, waiting to see who fares worse in a shoot-out with an Apache helicopter or F-16 fighter jet." I'm sure your mates in the Irgun & Stern Gang did that in the 40's.

As for your reference to "Jewish fanatics who set up the infamous settlements", they're simply doing now what their fanatical Zionist forbears did between 1948 & 1967, redeeming the land of Israel. Before or after 67, the fanatical Zionist project in Palestine was/is wrong, seeking to impose an ethnically exclusive state on the Palestinian natives. The world has no place these days for apartheid states.

You're still banging on I see about Zionism's other victims, the Jews of the ME, compromised through no fault of their own by the fanatical European Zionist expulsion of the Palestinians in 1948, and then actively targeted by Israeli campaigns to uproot them to boost Israel's population in the 50's and pre-empt the return of the Palestinian refugees. I've given you copious material on this subject elsewhere, but will you educate yourself?

Anyway, enough of history. You Zionist propagandists love playing these little games while the OTs and Lebanon burn. You have no shame.

Strewth

The middle eastern Jews left because of persecution. The Zionists enabled them to establish a dignity denied to them by The Arab states.

The Egyptian Jews were denied passports and Iraqi Jews were hanged in the city square on trumped up charges.

About half of Israel´s population is descended from these middle eastern Jews.

Muslim and Christian populations have been given passports equal votes in elections and have their own political party.

None of this fits with anti Israeli propoganda.

logic:
You amaze me. Palestinians in Gaza and Lebanese (& others) are literally being torn to pieces for no other reason than that they had the misfortune to be born on a block regarded by the local bully as his own exclusive possession and who is now at the height of one of his most vicious temper tantrums ever, and you prattle on as though this psychopath is a model of civilization and decorum. The bully commits crime after crime in your name, but you're so blinkered by your tribal mentality and allegience that you're blind to what's going on. Your sole concern is your tribe and what you mistakenly believe to be its real interests. You seem unable to accept that religious and ethnic affiliations are superficial and inconsequential in the face of our common, shared humanity.

Marilyn, inferior, how about different, I support what you say, we only differ in application. After WW2 80% of jews went to Russia, they are a part of every society, developing exclusive enclaves.

I believe in multi cultures, not multiculturalism. Multiculturalism always brings trouble. Barbarity as displayed by israel, is a product of religious expression, it's seen throughout history in monotheisms contact with gods other factions and non god cultures.

Jews, christian, muslims, have no thought for human rights, they must be right at any cost. It's notable to see, the reaction of Lebanese in Australia, how they all blamed us for not rushing to the rescue of Lebanese with Australian passports, not Australians in Lebanon. It's also interesting to note how most are women children and older men. Why simple, young males holding Lebanese passports have to serve in the army when in Lebanon, but because they are such cowards, they stay here and abuse us. Personally I would've left all dual citizen there, as its their home and they only use Australia to avoid supporting the country they associate with.

Its the same for jews and muslins with dual passports, they use Australia, yet don't support it's approach to life. The followers of god will always war, its the make-up of their belief. So human rights don't come into it. There are no answers to the problems facing the world, until god is fully revealed for what it is, a violent fallacy, hell bent on destruction.

Marilyn, we need to support the right of this country to survive the barbarity being thrust upon us by monotheists, only then can we think of others. Hard but rational, having this country torn apart by the fools of god is where we are heading, as can be seen by the replies from monotheists on this forum. They care for nothing but their belief, they're even prepared sacrifice their families for this despotic belief. Israel knows it destined for extinction, its only propped up from outside, has no other economy but consumption and war, it will fail, taking the ME with it.

In relation to the United Nations Outpost being attacked there was gross negligence or worse on the part of the Israelis. They were told several times at a high level that they were firing on the UN Outpost. An investigation has been organised; no doubt it will take long enough for emotions to have died down.

I saw a HWR spokesperon being interviewed a couple of days ago on the Dateline, he was very mealy mouthed refusing to make conclusions from the information he was providing about Israel using disproportionate force on an innocent country. It was almost as though the HRW spokesperson was an apologist for Israel.

How far the Zionist lobby has departed from civilised values became more obvious when Ms Mandel referred to "human rights language." Well of course it would be a no-no to mention old fashioned stuff like "international law", "illegal occupation", "unjust war" and the like. Can't have folk thinking in these outdated terms, can we ? Let's just shoot up the UN and kill UNIFIL workers who are trying to carry out their brief on the border. Come to think of it, let's just get rid of the pesky UN altogether. It was OK when it gave the Zionists half of someone else's land but it, and its silly conventions, is past its use-by date now, when the Zionists want all of Jerusalem and the rest including the water of the Litani river in Lebanon. So hooray for ethnic cleansing when its us who are doing it !

We again read the constant chants of hate posted by Alchemist. He has only one note, one idea and offers no answers.

Philo, hate's the expression displayed by the followers of god. Disgust, describes my view of that expression. I'm sure your lord would be horrified at the example you provide of love, peace and caring. It just adds to the evidence of a misleading and false belief, using deception to promote love, before inflicting barbarity.

Philo, the only solution your mob comes up with is, destroy the opposition, leading to the same outcome, violence and harm to all life. The proper solution to all problems, is remove the cause. In this case its god in all its varying religious depictions. None of you are prepared to give an inch, which is a non solution and perfectly normal for your ilk, what's left is violence.

If the messiah comes, it'll be in the form of reason, caring and to fix up what's left after the ravages of his false followers. We'll all be judged philo, not on our belief, but on our expression, example and actual care for this planet. Not to be forgiven for what we knowingly failed to do.

Your christ had the right idea, he was able to see beyond the material world of belief and religious expression, to see the wonders of the reality of life. If the stories about him are correct, then he was an evolutionist, not a pragmatist stuck in the past.

Sadly for him, the results of his teachings are scarred by the despotic expression of those using his understanding for power and control. Quite the opposite to what's expressed in the book of the New testament.

Human rights Philo, is not a word in the vocabulary of the monotheist. That's eminently displayed in the situation indigenous people of the world find themselves in. The ongoing resort to violence, condemnation and hate the followers of god display for all life, not accepting of being dominated by suppressive dictatorial and despotic practises. The works of those purporting to follow the way of christ, is factually documented in the history of the world in the form of psychological and physical violence.

Finally the IDF is beginning to think.

They are starting to wake up that militias require built-up areas in which to work and which they are capable of defending against a larger force.

The answer, warn the resident's, let them leave, destroy the entire village. There is no need to be concerned about 'civilian' casualties, as they are prevented by virtue of the exodus after the warning.

If this is done in every area from whence the rockets come, the enemy will no longer have the necessary protection from which to fire the rockets with impunity:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?apage=1&cid=1153292023661&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

With no built-up areas, Hizbollah is forced to fight in the open, with predictable results:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/743736.html
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?apage=2&cid=1153292018606&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3282867,00.html

Force Hizbollah out into the open, as they are neither trained nor equipped for mobile, fast paced warfare, nor are they prepared to be targeted out in the open by the better equipped IDF, which can and will happen immediately they lose the protection of the civilian population.

Inshallah

2bob

Hi Sarah, nice article, but I don't think you have figured out what the real problem is.

I was around in 1973, when the Arab nations of Jordan, Egypt, Iraq, Libya and Syria made no bones at all about their intention of wiping Israel right off the map. In those days, there was not a single trendy lefty who backed the Arabs against poor little Israel. You see, in order to be a trendy lefty, it is obligatory to always defend the underdog, and in those days Isreael was most definitely the underdog.

But Israel had a problem, they kept winning.

What was worse, was that Israel was also a relatively prosperous democracy. In addition, it's main benefactor was a nation which every trendy lefty knows is the epitamy of evil, the USA. So the trendoids simply switched sides in the same way that they discard last years beach fashions.

So, it is only normal for NGO's like HRW to now barrack for the Arabs, after all, the Arabs are now worthy of symaphy because they are a bunch of losers who could not run a chook raffle. And once any organisation is set up which espouses high ideals, it is only a matter of time before the carreerists and most fanatical succeed in taking it over and driving out the sensible people. Look at Greenpeace, which has become so radical that it has even been disowned by it's founder.

But don't worry, Sarah, in the unlikely event that the Arabs will someday succeed in destroying Israel, and then begin liquidating it's Jewish population, then we can be assured that HRW will again switch sides. It will then send strong notes of protest to the Arabs who are mass raping and exterminating the Jews. Then the moral posturing can begin anew.

2bob

taking those thoughts a bit further....

A possibly workable strategy which provides maximum peace and safety could be:

1/ Warn all residents about any ties or accomodation with Hezbollah.
2/ All civilians to move out of the village to Syria.
3/ IDF to carry out search and destroy missions against remaining Hezbollah insurgents.
4/ Once fighting has subsided, civilians are allowed back UNDER THE FOLLOWING CONDITIONS.

a) Sign (and be videotaped/Photographed) a treaty swearing to NEVER support or provide shelter for Hezbollah (or what ever name the next incarnation of it might emerge with) ' The record to be posted on the internet for scrutiny by all.

b) The treaty will include acknowledging that IF Hezbollah are EVER found to have embedded themselves in that village again, (and the village failing to notify details to IDF) it will be 100% razed to the ground and the population deported, dispersed and absorbed into other countries.

They should do this with the Quran over their heads. Those who refuse, are not allowed to return. This would solve once and for all any idea of 'innocence' or 'guilt' among the so-called 'civilian' population.

A BIT HARSH ? nah.. this is what I've learn't about Mohamed, prophet of Islams methods. But he did not have Video or the internet in those days, but they did have good memories.
So, don't criticize me, or 2bob, criticize him and those who follow his faith.

Have any of you bothered to read any of the HRW reports or notice that they are based in the US? Didn't think so.

Did you see the one they wrote against Afghanistan's murdering warlords that we are supporting? You know the one. The murdering thugs are burning down the schools, killing the teachers and torturing the students. Here's the thing about people like those in HRW - they only report what they see.

When the US use cluster bombs on civilians they record it. When Israel use cluster bombs on Lebanese civilians they record it. If the Lebanese and Iraqis did it to Israel they would report it.

It is not possible to invent what is not there - unless it is the propoganda machine of the US and Israel who will never be asked by most of the spineless media to justify their positions or prove what they are saying.

If HRW investigate the so-called democracies and hold them to higher standards it is surely because of our self-righteous claims that we are better than "them".

Marilyn,

The world would be a better place if everyone shared your abhorrence of violence.

The practical problem with your ideology (at least as I perceive it) is that as soon as you have a dispute with a violent opponent, you can only be in the right if you allow yourself to be the victim.

Both the Palestinians and the Israeli's see each other as the aggressor. For the purposes of a peaceful solution, the truth of it doesn't really matter. For peace to reign the aggressor must cease his violent aggression and the other party must cease its violent retaliation.

My question to you Marilyn, is how, in practice can the parties be persuaded to cease their violence?

New York Times, Sabrina Tavernise, July 28, 2006

“The refugees from southern Lebanon spilled out of packed cars into the dark street here Thursday evening, gulping bottles of water and squinting in the glare of the headlights to find family members and friends. Many had not eaten in days. Most had not had clean drinking water for some time. There were wounded swathed in makeshift dressings, and a baby just 16 days old.

But for some of the Christians who had made it out in this convoy, it was not just privations they wanted to talk about, but their ordeal at the hands of Hezbollah — a contrast to the Shiites, who make up a vast majority of the population in southern Lebanon and broadly support the militia.

“Hezbollah came to Ain Ebel to shoot its rockets,” said Fayad Hanna Amar, a young Christian man, referring to his village. “They are shooting from between our houses.”…”

At: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/28/world/middleeast/28refugees.html?

When my little niece (8 years old), says to me, “uncle Kevin, turn the telly off. I don’t like watching the war”, I say to her, “For every one of you, I bet there are thousands of children in each of these countries, currently troubled with killing each other, that wish they too could just switch it off”.

What do the children caught up in all this really think? They certainly can’t understand – their minds are still young and open and empty. How unfortunate we continue to fill them with horror. New minds that should be looking out on to the wonder of the world, not the horror caused by grown men with no sense other than their desire ‘to win’

My niece asks me “why are they doing this?” I tell her, “I don’t know and I don’t think they do either. When men go to war, their only currency is …..children’s lives".

"They’ll tell you its God, but don’t believe them. God isn’t going to ask anyone to kill what he/she has created, in love. When they tell you its God’s will, it really means someone wants something that someone else has got. The solution is in a willingness to share. But some people believe they are entitled to everything. To hide this fact they ‘blame’ God”

Then they tell you its for their country. Don’t believe them. Its people that make countries, not land. If they cared about their county – they’d care about people. If you only knew how much money they spend on shooting rockets into space and building weapons designed to kill thousands of people. How can they say they care about their country? If they spent the money on healthcare, good food and good education for all, then they would be caring about their countries”.

These same people don’t mind using children in adverts, to sell their products, but they don’t like talking about children when it comes to war. I wonder why?

I wonder what the children really think?

Israel drop bomb anywhere. Make civilians (children and women) as soft targets. This only to make israel troops happy, cause did'nt know enemy position . I can believe it, supported by US.

WOW .... I search about this article. Sarah Mendel, ..

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