Let me be the first to say I am supportive of what Teaching Australia and the NSW Institute of Teachers are trying to achieve. It is most welcome that teachers are establishing professional bodies and standards akin to those that exist for doctors, lawyers, accountants etc., and there is much to be said for the view that if we want to be treated like professionals, we need to institute both the behaviour and the accoutrements of professionalism.

That said, the boosters of performance-linked pay for teachers have neglected to mention the widespread corruption and cheating that prevailed when performance incentive payments were the norm in British schools during the mid-19th century.

When teachers' salaries were tied to the performance of their pupils, the darker angels of human nature unfortunately provoked all kinds of improper collusion between teachers and students to cheat on exams and raise marks, along with intimidation and expulsion of slow-learning pupils. Many histories of British education document these events.

I know it seems far-fetched that this could happen in 21st century NSW, but we must remain mindful of these hazards before we leap enthusiastically into this “new idea” that is actually 150 years old. Indeed, our current performance-neutral pay scales were developed largely as an antidote to the old, corrupt system.

However distasteful it may be, we must reflect that if police were rewarded based on the number of convictions they obtained, and doctors were paid for the number of “cures” they dispensed, and auditors paid for the number of company books they pronounced “compliant” – well, the potential for corruption is obvious. Shoot the messenger if you will.

Given the vociferous support that some politicians and commentators have recently given to the teaching of historical facts in schools, it is ironic that they have ignored the lessons of history in this regard.

I think this article may be quite relevant to the independent school sector where it may be a choice between a rewarding (both financially and professionally) career in education or industry, but it's only partly relevant to the government sector.

Why do teachers leave the government sector? Sure, some of it may be to do with pay. However, I think a big issue may be that they're forced to be babysitters or crowd controllers, not teachers, in a lot of cases. How can a teacher be a professional teacher when it's like feeding time at the zoo and there's little he or she can really do about it? Why stick around for that day after day?

It's exactly the same reason that a lot of parents penny pinch to send their kids to private schools: they're sick of the 10%+ of their students' classmates constantly derailing the whole exercise in the government system.

Throwing more money at teachers, whilst good in the sense suggested, is a second step that needs to be addressed after far deeper and more urgent problems. I dare say that if these could be sorted out, a lot of teachers would stick around for the love of the job, even if they didn't earn a lot.

Let me add my $0.02 worth.

Public school teachers fought, argued and went out on strike throughout the early 70's and finally got rid of external (inspectorial) review of their work, methodologies and skills. They then fought through the late 70's and early 80's to finally get rid of any trace of peer review.

Throughout the 70's and later, teaching came to be held in such poor regard that we filled the ranks of what are now senior public school teachers with those who had failed or so nearly failed their own education that they had no tertiary choices other than teaching. Ask how many high school teachers have a respectable TER score for mathematics or science.

For more than thirty years, public school teachers have loudly proclaimed the importance of "values free" education which has always been perceived by most rational parents as simply code for teachers who want to teach only on the basis of the latest left-wing ideology.

And now public school teachers are aghast and shocked that we don't think a great deal of them as a profession?

Teacher arguments against performance management are simply another statement of a long-held total lack of accountability - a lack championed and fought for by teachers themselves.

Kevin may be a tad harsh (nearly all pubic school teachers that I know are so committed and hard working) but his general comment is true enough.

If teachers want higher rates of pay, then that must come with standards and accountability.

A minority of teachers are lazy, let down the profession, milk the system... and so forth. And this degrades the whole profession.

Teachers have nothing to thank their unions for because the unions have been so pay focussed they have ignored so many other pressing issues relating to improving the profession.

By accountability I do not mean the Brendan Nelson philosphy, I mean that an underperforming teacher on high pay must not be able to use their permanent status to take the system for a ride.

I went back and read the article again after reading the comments of posters here. Am I once again being naive? Is this writer talking about performance-based pay? Is the idea of paying teachers better salaries and insisting upon higher standards actually a euphemistic way of discussing performance-based scales?

Yes, I agree that such a system inevitably gives rise to creative ways of rorting the system - especially amongst those teachers who are poorly equipped for the job.

But I believe that the persons who have charge of my children for the greater part of their lives should be the best. And a profession that does not give adequate remuneration does not attract the best. Or does so only until interest rates go up and the salary will no longer pay the mortgage.

Thats what I had thought the article meant and, as a parent, I couldn't agree more while, as an academic, I also have to concede that such a re-structuring would have personal ramifications as well.

In Victoria you would be hard pressed to find a lazy teacher, they were all weeded out in the early 1990s, and very few new teachers hired. The new teachers are hired after a rigorous apprenticeship of contracts and part time work until they finally get a full time job. All Victorian state schools are responsible for hiring their own staff.

The Victorian Institute of Teaching only licenses teachers after they have completed 6 months classroom experience in a 2 year period. Many newly graduated teachers drop out when unable to find a position. The Victorian Institute of Teaching has plans to reaccredit existing teachers at regular intervals, say every 3 to 5 years.

Most people respond well to stability and encouragement. If we want our teachers to provide a confident, secure learning environment for our children, whether state or private, then this will be easier to achieve with a confident workforce.

Better pay for everyone benefits everyone.

'Teaching standards and quality in the classroom' is not a newly-discovered principle. Education Queensland rigorously critique teachers before offering permanency. Queensland teachers are registered with the Qld College of Teachers, chaired by a lawyer. Independent schools can and do employ unregistered teachers. Ongoing Professional development is expected by the College.

Both "good" and "bad" teachers leave the classroom. Consistent with other professions, many teachers seek to increase their income potential: mostly men. Theorists contend that those teachers that move into policy and managerial positions are refugees from the classroom, unable to cope with student behaviour and workload.

It is highly predictable that a corporate executive would fully embrace Workchoices. Of course his agenda is to maximise profit for stakeholders. Unfortunately, Workchoices has always been part and parcel of teaching. It just didn't have a name. Salaried professionals are expected to work the hours needed to competently manage their workload, although salaried teachers are paid for only five hours per day. Contract teachers do not experience leave loading, holiday pay, sick leave. 'Workchoices' is already imposed on them.

How is an executive body to measure the 'quality' of teachers? I teach two year 10 classes: one an extension class, the second consisting of many special needs students. Will I be judged as a 'quality' teacher based on the performance of my students in class one or two? It will be an easy buck earned if all my classes are the same as classroom one. Will schools, in their marketing of 'quality' teaching, reject special needs students in future?

Contrary to the claims attacking teachers academic accreditation, most secondary school teachers: possess two degrees; spend, on average, four to five years at university; chose teaching although their professional qualifications gave them the choice of working in other potentially higher paid professions.

For those who professes not to 'think a great deal of [teaching] as a profession', I would suggest that you blame the Dr Geoff Newcombe's of Education, who were 'too good' for the classroom, wrangled their way into management, and expect classroom teachers to implement their decisions.

Don't keep them ,open up the entire profession.Have a constant movement between the private enterprise system and teaching.After 10yrs a teacher should do something entirely different for a few years and then can elect to come back.

Encourage older professionals from private enterprise to teach and we will finally get some balance into the system.

There are too many teachers who never left the protected environs of school and as a result teenagers are ill prepared for the competitive reality that faces them.

Gees your a d!ckhe@d Ajay

Because I disagreed with you in another post, you trail me in this post.

Do you honestly think 'other professionals' can just step into teaching without professional training. You're dreaming.

Liz, when I was 16 years of age, after 7 days training, I became a Cadet Under Officer.
This made me a platoon commander in the school cadets. I would take a platoon of 29, 14 year old recruits, & with the assistance of a 15 year old sargent, train them, among other things, in the maintenance, safty, & use of an army rifle.
I, & my sargent, would then take them to the rifle range, & teach them to shoot the bl@@dy things, & to hit the target with them.
Every year there would be at least a thousand of us doing this, year after year, with no problems.
Now, if a thousand 16 year old boys, can safely teach 29 2Nd year high school boys, to safely shoot dangerous weapons, with only 7 days training, just how much training should you require to be able to teach 25 of them to add up.
After 15 years in our p&c, I've seen a lot of teachers, good & bad, & I have one bit of advice. Stop taking your self so seriously, you'll live longer.

What is quality teaching?
The answer is obvious, it is whatever the teacher says it is.
Maybe teachers should be paid less and that money given to the students so they will bring about positive learning.

"Passive acceptance of the teacher's wisdom is easy to most boys and girls. It involves no effort of independent thought, and seems rational because the teacher knows more than his pupils; it is moreover the way to win the favour of the teacher unless he is a very exceptional man. Yet the habit of passive acceptance is a disastrous one in later life. It causes man to seek and to accept a leader, and to accept as a leader whoever is established in that position."
Bertrand Russell (1872 - 1970)

Geoff Newcombe is a dedicated educator and an excellent leader in education, personal criticisms are unhelpful.

Liz poses an excellent question in relation to the performance review/remuneration of teachers who teach students with special needs. I would suggest that the review of performance of special needs children, particularly those in mainstream classes, may give rise to more resources for teachers who are not sufficiently supported in such a class. Many teachers I am sure find it difficult enough to meet the needs of mainstream students and when a significant percentage of those students have special needs then it is unfair to all in the classroom if the resources are scare and inadequate.

Perhaps remunerating at a higher rate in the first instance those teachers who teach special needs students in whatever setting would go a long way towards removing any inequity at the outset. It may even tempt some teachers to try their skills in the special ed area.

In any event my best wishes to all teachers. You are a noble and giving group of professionals who work under demanding and often difficult situations created by policy makers who so often haven’t a clue. And you do so for the better future of our children.

Glenwriter, the question: What is quality? is a good one- one that Geoff Newcombe hasn’t clearly defined in his article.

Perhaps it can be described as: the degree in which schools successfully reach their achievement goals- not only to their own satisfaction but also to the satisfaction of the government, the parents and the children. What do others think quality should mean?
The aims/goals of schools/teachers must be very clear and acceptable by all involved.
Goals must be set not only by the schools and parents, but in close relation with the government.

On the basis of these goals, a school then decides on methods to reach these goals.
Teachers must make sure that:

* they do the right things (the right things the school decided on) correctly. Having agreed on the right things to reach the goals, teachers now must make sure that they choose the right methods to teach those right things the right way.

* there is a reliable way to evaluate that s/he is doing the right things right? There should be a system and a govt appointed assistant available to schools who can help teachers evaluate this. No, NOT by endless testing of pupils. I gave my opinion on this here: see http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4651 .

* they find out whether others agree. Parents as well as children, and an appointed government person, other schools/teachers could have input.

* the school can use this input. The teacher should be able to discuss usuable input at regular meetings, and input should have a positive effect on their teachings.

All this will mean some more hours per week work for teachers- therefore I think that all teachers should be awarded.

I’m not convinced about the idea of rewarding individual teachers for improving their skills and knowledge base.
I think it should be part of all teachers’ jobs and not a choice to keep updated.
ALL teachers should be expected to constantly improve their skills, the government should make this easily available to teachers, and I think that ALL teachers’ wages should be updated as well.

Celivia, if by a "government-appointed person" you mean a state government bureaucrat, I'd have to say "AAGGGHHHH!!" Queensland Education is highly politicised, for several years their website carried a Marxist critique which claimed that ALL of the problems in the state school system were caused by the expansion of non-Catholic private schools, and that the answer was to wind back private enrolments. [Catholic schools had to be excluded to avoid offending their higher proportion of ALP voter parents.] This politicisation and related favouritism, together with political correctness and the government's mad "no public service redundancies" policy adversely affects the standards and morale in schools.

One of the merits of private schools is that they are outside of this, except for the State-imposed curriculum.

As for teacher registration in Qld, when I reviewed it in the early '90s, it existed (1) to restrict entry and protect incumbents and (2) to raise money, with teachers required to re-register annually at a relatively high fee. If it's improved since, Liz - e.g. by genuinely contributing to raising teaching standards - I'm delighted

Fine in theory. In practice, not so easy. In Queensland, teachers seeking permanency are assessed on teaching ability at School level. In some Schools, it is impossible to gain a Level 1 [most proficient teacher]. In other Schools, it is very difficult not to gain a Level 1 rating. Both Schools are using the same set of Departmental guidelines. How does a teacher appeal a lower Rating? It requires a challenge against a group of colleagues who have been in the system for a long time. Assessment of teacher ability is, and will always be, a fine art, not an exact science.

Could a system where a teacher's salary is based on an assessment of teacher ability ever be consistent or fair to all? What guidelines would be chosen?

Student success is affected by so many variables that it would lead to great inconsistencies.

Different Schools in different locations vary in their level of resourcing. Some teachers are restricted to chalk and OHTs. Other teachers have access to the latest technology. There are great inequities in our teaching systems. In this debate, let's acknowledge that inequity.

Perhaps we could put our energies into increasing resourcing to resource-poor Schools, so that students are less disadvantaged.

Then we might be in a better position to assess teacher ability.

I think I hit a raw nerve with Liz.There are a lot of highly intelligent and articulate older professionals who had UAI's in the top 5% who can contribute a lot to education.Gifted leaders/teachers are born,the system does not manufacture them.You can become a teacher on a UAI of 65% or less.

Back in the sixties I was fortunate enough to be taught by some really capable and exciting teachers.They seem to be a rarity these days,even with all the salary increases and extra time off.

Mediocrity seems to reign supreme.

I have so often seen the word "disadvantage" when applied to students. It is a very emotive word. Can someone in online land opine a definition of what it means to be a disadvantaged student. Thank you

• Glen Writer ..."Passive acceptance of the teacher's wisdom is easy to most boys and girls. It involves no effort of independent thought, and seems rational because the teacher knows more than his pupils; it is moreover the way to win the favour of the teacher unless he is a very exceptional man. Yet the habit of passive acceptance is a disastrous one in later life. It causes man to seek and to accept a leader, and to accept as a leader whoever is established in that position"... Courtesy of aristocratic echelon masters ingenuity knack, who throughout the millenniums always placed their bets each way, to score an ample of a steadfast incubated rulers on the global arena.

Representing an exclusive tyrant entity breed of the limitless significance via apartheid, we had to have fait-accompli elimination regimes. Starting right from a kindergarten via compulsory schooling and cultivated universities buffer, which to yield an ample of disposable puppets. Accompanied over the years with connived referees issued clandestine dossiers as norm. No wonder the imbeciles lot to be nurtured with a carte blanche, whilst incorruptible souls of the role-model citizens (as our mavrick Mark Lathan) to endure devious wrath. Yet many of the ill-informed minds failed even to realise what hit them indeed.

Without expecting in the wildest dream to face a nightmare of an insidious act to be unleashed on us. As our youngsters intellect being methodically moulded into sly set profile to suit application. Courtesy of the compulsory schooling criteria, that making sure to prevent juveniles mind from creative roaming and getting innate ideas on his or her own. Instead being fed with lots of trash, until every applicable brain-cell was certainly occupied. No wonder for earlier burned-out saturation effect, intended to debilitate into obese couch potatoes any non-kosher outcast-minds, beyond the targeted genome objective by coalition of the willing connivers.

Leo,
Yeah right.

Statistically as a predictor or school success is parents status far outweighs perceived teacher quality, school qaulity or almost anything else except the mothers education level. Type of school makes very little difference. There is some evidence that good teachers are those who can recruit good students or good timetables. Incidently when more kids go to private schools does the over all tested level of achievement not rise?

Though I would like to think that we could have some sort of value added formula for teachers schools etc experience where it has been tried does not engender confidence. Very good research indicates the in general school success can be predicted form observing parent child interaction before 3 years old. I would have thought that a much more fertile ground of action than this constant teacher centric crap

Choice sounds good, unfortunately choice studies show people do not choose rationally. Very strongly influenced by perceived peer preferences. I like to use the Coke Pepsi debate as a metaphor. Just search coke pepsi and MRI on google and some interesting stuff comes up. Whatever ever the taste preference, people prefer the cola with perceived higher status. There are many other on music choice etc.

Such research as we have on parental choice of school indicate that the difference between public school parents and private school parents is not qualities of the education but the weight given what can be described crudely as "old school tie" effects.

Faustino, sorry for the late reply- totally forgot about it. You can stop screaming- I don’t like bureaucrats either ;)
I was thinking more about some type of hands-on involved inspectorate; someone who can be a regular visitor at a number of schools in the area, who inspects and helps solve practical problems, someone who does answer to the parliament. Oh, I suppose s/he actually does not *necessarily* have to work for a government department; it can be an independent department.

I’d like to see the government providing free education for everyone and be adequately involved in it though - perhaps it should be a requirement for PM’s and all government bureaucrats to use government provided facilities and services, like sending their own children to public schools, go to public hospitals, travel by public transport etc. Pulling that plush chair from under their bottoms should improve things faster, LOL.
I think that public education should be of such high standard that there wouldn’t be a need for private schools.

I'm skeptical that ‘rewarding’ teachers as such would permanently solve anything. I would welcome basic teacher training improvements, updating ongoing training programs, easily available help and guidance for teaching staff should be freely provided and of high standard and ongoing and above all compulsary.

A fair teacher’s award should be: you teach properly and you will keep your job.

The Larimoo, I just looked at some definitions and found: Deprived of basic social rights and security through poverty, discrimination, or other unfavorable circumstances.
www.uwstout.edu/ugbulletin/ugb_glossary.html
Just google for it and you’ll find longer definitions as well- my space here is limited.

Richard, I agree with you that child-parent interaction at a young age is very important for future school success.
But I also believe that, when they get a bit older, say high school age, peers (and mob mentality) can become a big influence.
Good pupils can sometimes become demotivated/uninterested in their education, or become underachievers.

Thank you Celivia - will look up definitions as suggested

Hasbeen and Arjay

Our very own armchair commentators on all topics.

Thank you for your 'informed' analysis of the teaching profession.

Of course Hasbeen, given your boyscout experience (or was that cadets), gives you an 'informed' position to claim an expert opinion.

And Arjay, your suggestion that other professionals be allowed to teach. Didn't you know they've already tried that. It must have been about 10 years ago now they introduced a six week accelerated teaching course for other professionals to enter the classroom. It was a failure. The graduates cited woeful underpreparation for the classroom. So they extended the accelerated program to 18 months.

It's already in place for other professionals to become teachers. Teaching for most of us is our second profession.

Liz,I'm no armchair critic.I was a teacher from the mid seventies to the late eighties.I have taught children from K to 12.Your bile and language does you no credit.If this is the level of mentality that beckons the new generation,then I fear for their future.

Our left wing education system has lost the plot and too often uses environmental degradation and multi-national avarice as an excuse for self indulgence and simplistic anti-establishment rhetoric.

Your ilk seek black and white solutions to complexities beyond the grasp of your own intellect.The reality is more often hard nosed negotiation that requires both courage and compassion.

Too often the left elect minority soft options as their preference,rather than looking at the solutions which benefit the majority.

Yes Arjay, you are an armchair critic. The teaching profession is full of them too, particularly in judgement of 'other' teachers. I don't think you would consider that you might be considered as the one that lacks 'quality'. Why is it that you position yourself as the one that gets to judge others?

My 'bile' is mild language, saying pretty much what you are saying to me, but with less pretentiousness.

This article was about imposing IR based on another's perception of who deserves protection, and who deserves the full wrath of IR, due to an individuals decision on who is a 'quality' teacher. If I argue against this imposition, then yes I am left wing, but I pretty much consider myself middle of the road and am unwilling to agree to the teaching profession, or other professions for that matter, being exploited or denigrated

Your response to my posts were nothing more than a power game, with no consideration of the relevance. Teachers are doing their best under the 'system'. Surely that doesn't need to be explained to you given your claims of once being a teacher from K-12. Nor should I have had to explain that other professions enter teaching consistently.

My 'ilk'! What is my 'ilk' Arjay? Why is it that you place yourself as someone who gets to judge my 'ilk' because I am a teacher? So we're all 'left wing …. black and white solutions… [unable] to grasp complexities beyond our capabilities?' Having made those outrageous claims, you even consider yourself as the one with the superior 'intellect'.

Didn't make it in teaching did you Arjay?

• Celivia ..."I think that public education should be of such high standard that there wouldn't be a need for private schools. I'm skeptical that 'rewarding' teachers as such would permanently solve anything. I would welcome basic teacher training improvements, updating ongoing training programs, easily available help and guidance for teaching staff should be freely provided and of high standard and ongoing and above all compulsary. A fair teacher's award should be: YOU TEACH PROPERLY AND YOU WILL KEEP YOUR JOB"!

Yeah ... contrary elders-of-zion cabal's consequences! Where profoundly hand-picked kosher-gurus are conditioned to perplex damned elementary-schooling and monitor-universities-buffer. One may-be-excused for having dejected-perception at-times of being just-an-alien visitor-here from some-distant-planet. Thus having-to-face a user-pay consequences. Which must-be contemptible for the conscientious-citizens within a country where ensuing generations of youngsters grow and proceed into the adulthood without having a single elevated role-model. Someone to-look up-to (as our maverick Mark Latham), towards the impending achievements to-come.

Still-a-lone voiced Professor-Messel, vocally protested over the years against the rampant rot-n-ruin within our educational establishment. In-turn to-be bucketed with lots-of-filth, coming from the connived-zionist-quarters. Countered by his typical commentary ... The tall-poppy syndrome is a major deterrent-to-excellence in Australia. We're the greatest-group of the knockers in the world. If we put-as-much effort into-being positive and supporting things as-we-knocking, there would be no-nation-equal-us. The state-schools were in-chaos and allowed the students who could-not-even-read, to-graduate. What I have to say, will undoubtedly-be-disputed vigorously by many people. And especially the radical, liberal-education-reformists.

They been-successful-beyond their wildest dreams so that today even the slow-learners graduate with-near-credit or distinction letters-of-commendation from their teachers. The fact that, in-some-instances a student can't even-read what the teacher wrote, appears to-be of-little-consequence. Chaos seems to-be the ruling-system while our educationalists keep boasting about what-excellent-results they have-been-achieving. The university degrees becoming less-n-less meaningful.

As it now often-indicates roughly that the student has-achieved a knowledge-level equivalent to that, what should-have-been achieved by the end of high-school. The education standards were plummeting, because-cultural-change in Western-Society was destroying the family unit. Which meant children-no-longer got loving-care, attention-and-discipline. I'm fighting for something of the vital-concern to Australia.

Yet in spite of the above uttered Professor-Messel's words of enlightenment, by-hook or by-crook the most comprehensive corruption of the youngsters mind perseveres on-a-mass in the Ghetto Australis. Just as in good old-days of the earliest elders-of-zion instigated cunning campaign, to invoke an-innate tribal primitive-instinct of envy, culminating often in a brutal-bullying. Utilised to divide and conquer goy-n-shiksa duped fools, under the "rule by the best" on the planet earth (due to the almighty chosen Jew aristocracy, since time immemorial).

Which not meant for any derogatory manners acrimony, under racist exploits. As our Jew-lesser brethren sustained enough of the collateral ravage fallout consequences. What was disguised snugly towards the 21st century via scapegoated cliché under "tall-poppy" syndrome's façade. Just to excuse for premeditated king-hit riddled manifestations, all along the adherence to the local folklore motto: SHOOT ANYTHING MOVING AND CHOP ANYTHING GROWING.

No wonder when some were indoctrinated not-to-think for themselves, but solely conditioned for the laidback predisposition. Reflected within the once popular expressions: "steady as she goes"..."she'll be right mate"..."near enough, is good enough"... and so forth parodied deliverance. As a result many of desensitised minds weren't geared-up to-grasp consequently that cuckoo-nest incubated rulers or preachers could have had a bloody chutzpah to distort-truths so incredibly.

Especially pertinent with a colonial patronage on-mind, who envisaged that no Aussie bloke or sheila ever-to-realise their true predicament in the Ghetto Australis. Whilst overshadowed we are by the most bizarre cretinism, unleashed under tyrannical oppression siege. Where no-reward to-excel or appreciation given for the role-model-citizens within the created apartheid via deliberate IR elimination procedures in place. Arranged by subversive institutional cliques for our surrender into malignant buffers.

Set to eradicate entirely our conscientious dissent of genuinely devoted professionals. No wonder as imbeciles lot were nurtured with a carte-blanche, whilst incorruptible souls of the genuine mortals to-endure devious wrath. Still, so many of ill-informed minds failed even to-realise what hit them indeed. Without expecting in the wildest dream to face such a nightmare of the utterly insidious act.

Please proceed to the diminished democracy exposé ... http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4625#47660

Hi everyone,
Was very interested in everything that you have had to say. Perhaps, a little scary to me as a beginning teacher but hey, it was wonderful to hear so much positivity from old hands. Can someone help me? I have accepted a contract for 4 weeks at a local state school. Does anyone know if I would get paid at the supply rate or at a permanent rate?
Thanks